Uncategorized

About Christine Preece

Christine Preece has over 30 years of experience working in child and youth holistic health. Presently she is the Mental Health and Wellbeing Lead and Manager for Student Mental Health Services for the St. Clair Catholic District School Board supporting a system-wide approach to adopting evidence-based mental health strategies through a tiered approach.

Previously Christine worked in public health as a Manager of School Health and a Health Promoter at Middlesex-London and Lambton Public Health Units. In all these roles she has facilitated and guided many disciplines to work together to better the lives of others in our schools and communities.

She firmly believes that youth can move mountains when given the proper learning conditions and opportunities to make change for the better, regardless of their personal situations. She believes that schools need to safe spaces of belonging for every student and staff member. 

Connect with Christine Preece: Email | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

St. Clair Catholic District School Board

Middlesex-London Public Unit

Lambton Public Health Units

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by Christine Preece. Christine brings over 30 years of experience in child and youth holistic health to her role as the Mental Health and Wellbeing Lead and Manager for Student Mental Health Services at the St. Clair Catholic District School Board. A registered Ontario social worker with dual master’s degrees in health science and as a certified health education specialist, she implements evidence-based mental health strategies through a tiered approach. Her career spanning public health management and school health promotion reflects her core belief that schools must be safe spaces of belonging for all students and staff. While her extensive volunteer work with organizations from Water Polo Canada to the Ministry of Education Ontario Wellbeing Advisory Committee, demonstrates her commitment to giving back to the community.

Sam Demma
Christine, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Christine Preece
Thank you for having me.

Sam Demma
Please tell us a little bit about what got you into the work that you do today with young people. Oh, wow, that’s a big, heavy question.

Christine Preece
You know, it just kind of, my journey has been very interesting, Sam, because I started out in recreation. And when I was in recreation, I was a rec director before these years that you talked about. I learned the importance of youth voice and youth engagement and how when you actually listen and hear the words of youth and their ideas, they can actually make such a difference in the lives of other people, but also themselves. So that kind of brought me in over to public health where we were doing a lot of work with children and youth because, you know, we have a really big role to play as adults in their lives and was looking at how we can really make a difference related to that. And I started off in public health working in the area of physical activity. And that is a passion of mine. And just looking at some of the programs that were done way back then, which is still running today in our school board, which was Playground Leadership Program, and it was done for youth by youth. And so, you know, you really can make a difference. And I was involved years ago with the Canadian Intramural Recreation Association. And we had a whole student leadership program within that where we actually trained students to run and organize intramurals in schools. That was years ago, obviously.

Christine Preece
And just the power of that and seeing how youth can really make a difference. So I really am passionate about children and youth holistic health and how we can help them make a difference in their own lives. That’s kind of a short story.

Sam Demma
You mentioned the power of actually listening and hearing the words of young people. It’s such a difficult skill sometimes because so many people listen just to respond or share their thoughts. But when you really truly listen, you uncover things that you probably wouldn’t have heard otherwise. Where does that skill come from and how do we build more of that? Because I think it’s needed in society.

Christine Preece
I don’t know where the skill comes from. I think it’s really having an understanding understanding of, you know, where children and youth are at, and being able to hear them out about their needs and wants. Often, when we’re adults, and I did this as a mother, is we think we know what’s best for them. But do we really if we aren’t listening to them and hearing what their needs are?

Christine Preece
And it’s not about giving in to them and not making them entitled. It’s about giving them the power to self-advocate, to do the best they can for themselves, and to have the tools in their toolbox to become a successful adult. And that’s where I was way back when, even around when we were in recreation, right? right, because I saw the power of youth and how they could make a difference, you know, whether it be organizing recreation activities for their peers or becoming a leader at a camp or wanting to inspire others through some advocacy initiatives. I just really believe in the power of youth and having that skill of listening and understanding where they’re at is so crucial in helping human growth and development really for children and youth, right? And it should be as even when they’re little, right? It doesn’t mean they get everything, but you have to hear what they want and hear what they’re saying.

Sam Demma
Do you believe that schools need to be safe spaces? And I couldn’t agree more. I think that if a school is not a safe space of belonging for every student and staff member, whether we intend to listen or not, a student or another human being might not be comfortable actually sharing their genuine thoughts if they don’t feel it’s a safe space of belonging. How do we cultivate those safe spaces of belonging for students and staff and school buildings?

Christine Preece
You know, it’s about setting a culture, a positive school culture where people feel safe and that takes a lot of effort. We know that when we have our school climate surveys, students want a safe place they can go to with a caring adult that they can talk to who’s going to listen to them. We don’t always have to have the answer, Sam. We just need to listen. And if they want help, then we can support them and advise them about where to get help. But it’s really not rocket science. I remember working years ago on a global youth health promotion program with a few agencies, and Dr. Bruce Ferguson was on there, but also Robert Blum from John Hopkins, and he said that an adult listening in a school to a youth for 10 minutes and not judging, not providing their thoughts or giving advice or can really change the trajectory of a youth’s life. So hearing them out, listening to them and being that caring person and inspiring them to help themselves through very creative ways, right? Because some kids have, or some students, I shouldn’t say kids, some students just don’t have those skills and we haven’t developed those skills. I’m a real firm believer that they just aren’t born with them, they develop them. We teach them that. So we are responsible for their skill development in schools. And I think that is one of those skill developments, right? And you know, with the whole stigma piece and all that kind of stuff that goes on around mental health, because I know this podcast is about mental health, we really can play an important role to break down those barriers and to help our children and youth to reach out for support. Because we know that children and youth won’t reach out for support because one, they don’t know how to, and number two, they don’t know who to go to. And so we need to be able to support that.

Sam Demma
Speaking on the mental health challenges faced by young people today, you’re very close with those challenges within your specific school board and many other initiatives that you’ve been a part of in the past. What do you think are some of the challenges, main challenges facing young people today?

Christine Preece
Oh boy. You know, since the pandemic, it’s growing. I’m not saying it wasn’t there before, but I’ve seen a significant change since the pandemic. Anxiety is really number one. And when we don’t teach them the skills of how to deal with their anxiety, and that is skill development, by the way, if we don’t teach them those skills, it can lead into depression in older years. And so we see a lot of anxiety and the world events that are happening now, and that’s spread through social media.

Christine Preece
So there’s been some really big shifts in children’s mental health, one being the iPhone and social media. We cannot deny that. There’s good things to it. I’m not saying it’s all bad, because it’s never going to go away. But we, I think, as a society, and education particularly, we have a role to play in teaching them how to use it in a positive way, to be aware of the impact that it can have on your mental health. And when children are young and people are saying stuff over social media and then it comes into school, which we see a lot, that hurts them. And they don’t have the skills to learn on how to develop that, do you know what I mean? Or how to support that or how to help themselves with that. Their brains aren’t fully formed. I mean, they’re not fully formed until they’re 25 or 30. Yet we’re giving kids these tools when we haven’t given them the tools of how to use that particular resource. I kind of went all over the map, didn’t I? Sorry.

Sam Demma
You did answer that. And I’m curious, as a follow-up, when you think of the resources or tools that have been most helpful within your specific school board. Are there anything that comes to mind that you think this has been helpful, that this has helped many students that another educator listening might look into or think about striving to implement within their own organization or school?

Christine Preece
So we have taken a real comprehensive approach, Sam, to social emotional learning. And it started about 2017. We brought in the MindUp program, which is from Goldie Hawn Foundation. Goldie created this program with Kim Schonert-Reichel, who was out of University of British Columbia, and Dr. Molly Lawler, and they developed this program because Goldie saw after 911, the anxiety levels go up for children and youth. And she had a real concern around that. So MindUp teaches children about their brains and how their brain, they can use their brains to become empowered to make decisions, but also understand how it impacts their thoughts, feelings, and actions.

Christine Preece
And we teach that to kids. And so we started that program and we see, we evaluate it every year, Sam, and we see that those skills are going up. And if you ask our attendance counselors, where students are attending for various reasons, mostly mental health, they see that those, they bring them back to that. Remember when you learned this skill when you were in elementary school. But we’ve taken on a whole comprehensive approach to that around helping kids develop these skills so they can help themselves when they’re older. It’s not perfect, but we are seeing some great outcomes from that because we’re teaching kids, number one, most important skill of social emotional learning is self-awareness.

Christine Preece
If you don’t have self-awareness and understand who you are, what your values and beliefs are, how you impact others, you will never be able to self-regulate, develop healthy relationships, make wise decisions. It all comes together.

Christine Preece
So we’ve really broken it down and taken a really comprehensive approach to social emotional learning. And we’ve got our whole team of social workers, and child and youth workers, but then we also have educators that are supporting the educators in the classroom. And it doesn’t take a lot of work, Sam, to implement social emotional learning, you can do it two minutes before lunch, two minutes after lunch, like it really, but if you do it consistently every day all week for the year, you’re going to see a huge change in your students. We did a pilot program two years ago, and we saw a huge change in our students.

Christine Preece
We actually focused in on certain schools and classes. We actually had a teacher who wanted to quit, and she said, this changed my life. This changed the way I taught. So we’ve made some really good in ways in, but we still have, we have places to go to, right? It’s not perfect. But we have a real passion in our board to move this forward because we know it works. We’ve seen it work. We’ve seen it work in small scale. Now we just need to have it larger scale, like everybody doing it in every school and every board. And you can do them school-wide events, you can do it classroom events, and we’re doing it as well individually through our work with social workers and child and youth workers and small groups. So it’s been interesting. It’s been an interesting ride, that’s for sure.

Sam Demma
It sounds like it’s been impactful with the students that have been exposed to it so far. So I hope the reach continues to expand and the uptake from schools and teachers continues to expand. It’s a tough challenge that we’re all facing, especially in the education space right now. And I think every action and every attempt to help matters.

Christine Preece
Yeah, have you watched the movie, American Tragedy? And it’s the story of the two boys in Columbine. And at the end of the show, the mom of one of those boys said, this should be taught in every school. And they’re actually, she’s promoting social emotional learning, starting in kindergarten, going all the way up. She feels that if every child had these skills, then we would lessen many things, right? Situations, right? So yeah, that really hit home for me because I’m really passionate about it. And so is our board. So is our director, our superintendents, everybody in our school board.

Sam Demma
Thank you for sharing that. Are there any other resources or things you’ve come across that have shifted the way that you think about supporting young people that an educator listening might want to also watch or look into?

Christine Preece
Yes, thanks for asking that. Well, School Mental Health Ontario is an excellent resource. It has resources in French and English, and it is led by Dr. Kathy Short and Dr. Teresa Kennedy, and every school board has one of me. And we have a mandate to actually do youth engagement, parent engagement, mental health literacy, mental health supports. And School Mental Health Ontario has been a great resource. And everything we do there, Sam, is evidence-based. It’s not like we go on Dr. Google and pull this strategy because we know that some of the work that was done pre-School Mental Health Ontario was actually doing harm to kids. We were bringing in programs that weren’t based on evidence, weren’t based, and all good intentions, don’t get me wrong, but all good intentions, but actually they were harming children when they left, right? So that’s why Dr. Bruce Ferguson and Kathy Short actually went to the ministry and said, you need this in your mind in Canada. We’re actually one of a kind, I think, around the world. And it’s been instrumental in my learning, because they have professional training. Constantly, they’re putting out resources constantly and a teacher, they have a lot of resources, which I would call add, water, stir, you open it up, you do the you do the activity, and there you there you go, you’re done, right. So it’s a really, really good resource that people can Google online if they wanted to or go into online.

Sam Demma
You said earlier in the interview that if an adult listens to a young person for 10 minutes, based on research that you cited, that it could really change the trajectory of their life. And I’m curious to know, when you were going through school, or even in the start of your professional career, or even now, was there an adult or caring mentor that listened to you and had a big impact on you?

Sam Demma
And if so, who was that person or who were a few of those people and what did they do for you?

Christine Preece
Well, that’s a really good question. I’ve had a few, yes, I’ve had a few. I had my former director of public health, Diane Buick, was so instrumental in my work in public health in Middlesex, London. She taught me so much about having quality standards for work and implementing those quality standards to the best of your ability, but also how it impacts others.

Christine Preece
It’s not about me and my, what I think is best and what I want. And sometimes I see that we can get caught up in that in society. well, I need this, I need that. But what are the, what do those people that you service need? And how are you helping them? So for in public health, she was always putting what we call the client at the center, right? The client was at the center. Now over in school health, and I did work primarily in school health in public health, but now over here in our school board is the student at the center. And we have to bring people back to that because it’s a tough job in education, right? It’s a tough job. And I’m not gonna say that it’s easy to do. It’s a tough job. And there’s a lot of things that are coming into education that weren’t here before. And as I would give an example, Sam, is we are a microcosm of larger society, right? So you see larger society and what’s happening in larger society in the world, we’re a microcosm of that because we have our own community.

Christine Preece
And you see those things coming into our schools and it’s how do we help support and build the best environment possible for the people that are in that system? And that doesn’t just mean students, but it also means staff. They need to be well in order to teach students. The support staff, the EAs, the ECEs, the custodians, the secretaries, the bus drivers, the yard supervisors, they all need to be supported and know how to support students as well through their own actions. So it’s a big role. And education is definitely, it’s changed since COVID. That’s all I can say.

Sam Demma
Yeah, you echoed similar thoughts and sentiments that a lot of people I’ve talked to regarding that on the show or in private conversations. One thing I’ve noticed about your career journey from what I know about you and what I’ve read and others who have spoken on the show before is that volunteer work has had a positive impact on their lives. Tell me a little bit more about your volunteer work and do you think there’s a connection between volunteering and even feeling good?

Christine Preece
Oh, yes. Definitely. Bruce Ferguson did. I don’t know if you know who Dr. Bruce Ferguson is. He was also a person who changed my life, but he wrote the early leaders report. And in his data, in his report, he found that students that volunteer actually have better mental health, right?

Christine Preece
And so if you’re giving, and we know that around mental health, it’s not about receiving, it’s about being able to give, it’s about gratitude, it’s about forgiving, those kinds of things. And volunteering has taught me a lot of that, is that I don’t need to be paid all the time to do this work. I have volunteered for a long, long time. I first started, as I mentioned, on the Canadian Intramural Recreation Association, and then went to the Ontario one. Then I was a chair of the Ontario Healthy Schools Coalition. And I’m still continuing to volunteer.

Christine Preece
I’m locally volunteering and then on Water Polo Canada. I really believe, one, for me, it helps you grow and become much more open-minded and have a growth mindset as opposed to a closed mindset. But it also helps you realize that there’s so many different kinds of people out there. And what I love is I meet many different people that aren’t always from the same field or background, right? You know you meet people that are Financial advisors or you meet people that are lawyers or you meet and they’re all very different and they think very differently But when you come together for common goal, you can make a collective impact and through volunteering and so it’s made a huge huge, huge difference in my life. I would never, ever say I’ve regretted one minute of it.

Sam Demma
The Early Leavers Report, is it something that is accessible or do you have to purchase it to read it?

Christine Preece
I don’t think so. If you Google it, Dr. Bruce Ferguson, he wrote about the Early Leavers Report and why students left school early. He talked about having part-time jobs, volunteering, I forget the other things. There were some key areas in his report that actually inspired the development of School Mental Health Ontario as well. And Bruce, I mean, I think he’s retired now, living somewhere in Ottawa, has been really an angel in my eyes to children and youth and what they need in their school system. Because he’s shown a lot of research that students who may be involved in, are involved in youth engagement are less likely to think about self-harm and suicide, those kinds of things. So he’s really taught me a lot about children, youth, and mental health and what they need, those positive, positive protective factors and how we can develop and support those through education. I mean, education, as you can see, Sam, plays a very important role in the knowledge and development of children. And right now, what we’re seeing is people have a lot of information through social media and internet and all that, but do they have the knowledge? Do they have the factual knowledge, right? And I think that’s really key, and that’s a really important part of education to give children those skills and youth.

Sam Demma
I had a teacher who fundamentally changed the course of my life, who listened to me at a time where I was struggling, and almost no one at school really knew about it except for this individual. And if it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t be the person I am today.

Sam Demma
And I can’t thank him enough. I fortunately stay in touch with him and his wife and have lunch with him in Bowmanville on their porch at least once a year. And it’s almost always the highlight. And we have such a lovely conversation. And one of the things he taught us is to lose yourself in the service of others.

Sam Demma
And I didn’t realize that maybe there was something going on in my brain at the time, but I always felt so good doing it. And I believe it’s one of the ways I refound myself after my own adversity when I was a senior in high school. And so I’m looking forward to reading this report. I appreciate you sharing it. Yeah, he’s a ruthless.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I mean, not was. He’s still alive, but he really was a trendsetter for sure around this area and particularly in education because he worked out of Sick Kids Hospital, right? He was a child psychiatrist, right? So he saw a lot when he, people that came through his door. So.

Christine Preece
I got you.

Sam Demma
This has been such a stimulating and informative conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time, Christine. If there’s someone listening to this that wants to connect with you or ask a question, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Christine Preece
They could email me at my email. It’s been a pleasure. I thought you’re gonna ask me about Hawaiian pizzas because you had that question on you. And it was I was gonna say well Sam. Did you know they were invented in Chatham? They were. Which is you know where my school board is.

Sam Demma
I have been to Chatham. I want to say someone told me because I strongly dislike them I may have had selective memory. I don’t like them.

Christine Preece
I love, I love Hawaiian pizzas.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome.

Christine Preece
That’s so funny. That’s so funny. I was waiting for the question.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Christine Preece

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

About Donovan Taylor Hall

“Donovan Taylor Hall (@donofriend) is a youth advocate and educator that teaches how to build positive self-identity. His work aims to help kids build self-determination, while also learning skills to take care of themselves mentally and emotionally. Donovan’s goal is to help kids and young people build positive relationships with themselves. He teaches his self skills curriculum through in-school speaking events and workshops, youth online coaching, professional development, video game streaming, and self-development online content. He has been featured on the Today Show, NowThis and several podcasts to talk about the importance of positive youth development.”

Connect with Donovan: Email | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter | TikTok | Twitch

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

donovantaylorhall.com

Celebrate America’s Teachers (The TODAY Show) – Donovan Taylor Hall

Viral Pep Talk – Donovan Taylor Hall

Twitch – Donofriend

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator podcast. Today’s special guest is my good friend, Donovan Taylor Hall. Donovan is a youth advocate and educator that teaches how to build positive self-identity. His work aims to help kids build self-determination while also learning skills to take care of themselves mentally and emotionally. Donovan’s goal is to help kids and young people build positive relationships with themselves. He teaches his skill sets through curriculum in school, speaking events, in workshops, youth online coaching, professional development, video game streaming, and self-development online content. He has been featured on the Today Show, Now This, and several podcasts to talk about the importance of positive youth development. I hope you enjoy this insightful conversation with my good friend, Donovan, and I will see you on the other side. I am very excited. We have a very special guest. This individual is doing amazing work in the educational space across North America. I had him open and do the emceeing at my book launch over a year ago. Flew all the way from the USA for for all our Canadian friends. Donovan Taylor Hall, please, I’m honored to have you introduce yourself. 

Donovan Taylor Hall
Thank you so much, man. I am very happy to be here too. My cheeks are hurting because I’m smiling a lot already, so I know that that’s gonna that’s gonna be a good sign for this. Yeah, my name is Donovan Taylor Hall. I am a youth advocate. I work with kids around empowerment as well as mental health advocacy. I am currently speaking at schools, working with teachers, working with parents, positive youth development specialists, and I have a big passion for helping kids take care of themselves mentally and emotionally as they’re growing, specifically because there’s just not a lot of space for that. And I think that that’s a time where they really need to start cultivating their skills and building their capacity to take charge of their life and to feel good about who they are. And so I believe deeply that kids who feel better do better and all of my work connects back to that.

Sam Demma
Teachers, educators, the Today Show know you as Donovan Taylor Hall or the modern Mr. Rogers. Students and kids know you as DonoFriend. Tell me where the the name came from?

Donovan Taylor Hall
I’m so happy you asked Sam. So DonoFriend is, it really represents what I’m trying to be and what I’m trying to do with young people. I started working with kids in positive youth development programs. And if you don’t know what that is, it’s basically afterschool stuff, boys and girls clubs, YMCA, summer camps. I was involved in all of those things. And the difference between positive youth development and education is that education is really extrinsically motivated. So you have to get good grades, you have to get a good job, you have to go to a good school, while these positive youth development programs really focus on building character and kind of discovering and figuring out who you are. And so I left youth development programs and brought my curriculum with my self skills into schools. And that’s where I was Mr. Donovan for a long time, but I really struggled with the hierarchy and how that affected the kids’ wants to do the work. As soon as a grades are attached to building self-determination or building positive self-identity, like kids just don’t listen. And I think that’s for a good reason because it’s just another adult saying, this is what you have to do. And this work is very powerful when kids are motivated to do it because they want to. And so I left the teaching space and tried to kind of create this public figure of someone that’s like not a teacher, you know, like a mixture between a teacher and a mentor and a friend, but mainly someone that kids choose to learn from. And that’s my big dream is that kids don’t have to be forced to learn this, but they want to because they want to feel better and they want to do better. So, DonoFriend is what I have the kids call me. And it just feels right. DonoFriend is your friend is like my little go-to quote that I never say out loud, but that’s what I think about every time I hear it. 

Sam Demma
I love it. I think so many educators yearn for those moments when a student gives them a gift, like a handwritten note, letting them know how their education, how their classroom has impacted them. And I know that the work you’re doing in schools, you get a lot of recognition from staff and from students, and you’ve even had students turn your nickname into a superhero. Can you talk about one of the coolest gifts you’ve ever gotten after a speaking engagement?

Donovan Taylor Hall
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, God, I love it so much. I wish I could show you it.

Donovan Taylor Hall
It’s hanging up in my, in my hallway right before I come into the room is really a reminder of my why. I went to a school called Stone Valley and I worked with them for a week, which was a huge blessing, a huge opportunity, mainly because I wanted to be a speaker when I was younger, but I was afraid that all I would do is create positive energy and then leave without tangible things, without follow-up, without actual skills to teach people. And so that’s why I went into the classroom. But I’ve been doing this really cool kind of mixture where I still do speaking events that are skill-based, but I also sometimes work with schools for up to a week. And when I went to this school, I got to just spend time with the community and spend time with the kids. I ate lunch with all these different groups of kids and I went to their classes and participated with them. I did workshops. I did speeches at the very end. And I think that, I mean, I would say that they are probably my biggest supporters right now. Like, every time I post something, one of them is like right there. Shout out to my boy Alex at Stone Valley because literally since the day I left his school, he has been like, come back, come back. And I’m going back next year. Or this year, oh my God, it’s 2024. I’m going back in like three months to see them. They made me this huge, I don’t know, I don’t know, tapestry or what it’s called, but they painted or I don’t know how they did it, but it’s this huge lion who’s like in a superhero pose because the lions are the symbol for their school. And it says Donofriend superhero underneath and all the kids signed it and they presented it to me on the last day. And it has really helped me remember why I do what I do. And it also made me feel seen by young people. I think it’s really hard sometimes to connect with kids in these positions because of, like I said, that hierarchy. It’s like, I don’t want to listen to you. I don’t have to listen to you. The kids at this school are just so receptive to it.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And every time I’m about to go into my office, just seeing it before I even enter, just like reminds me that this is what I’m supposed to be doing and that this is how these kids see this work. And it’s very powerful. And I keep, I’ve moved, I don’t know, like seven times in the past 10 years. I’ve been all over the country. And as I get rid of things like art and clothes and books, I always keep the gifts they give me. So I have like right next to me, I have just like a bag and a huge stack of gratitude notes that kids have written me. But I got to say the Mono Friend Lion is my favorite. They didn’t even know that I’m a Leo. And so I’m like all about lions and they have, they did the mane and everything. So at first I was like, oh my god, you guys know all about me. And then they told me it was the symbol for their school. So, which, you know, it can be two things. Yeah, it can exist at the same time. But I just loved it. And they were so excited to they also gave me a huge stack of like gratitude letters that kids had written me. And it was wonderful. I can’t wait to see them. 

Sam Demma
I think educators’ why is very universal and the why is to help young people, to pour into young people, to build a relationship and then share information in the hope that that information will improve their lives in some way, shape, or form. For the educators listening who are wondering how they can build those powerful relationships with young kids in their classrooms, what are some of the beliefs you have around building relationships with young people? How do you do that?

Donovan Taylor Hall
I say this and I don’t mean this in a condescending way. I think sometimes we assume people know this, but it needs to be said. I think my biggest thing with young people is just treating them like real people. And I think that that’s a huge issue in our society is the way that we treat young people and how the lack of respect and the lack of value that kids feel, how that’s supposed to suddenly go away when they’re an adult, I think it leads deeply to, or like directly to how kids view themselves. And so if you are treated like less than for most of your life, through your rights and through your choices and things like that, then how are you supposed to suddenly click that switch to say, I’m in control, I have power, right? And so that’s a huge part, I think, of how I work with young people. And I have three main things. And the first one is I say, thank you. That’s a huge one. And I’ve got really powerful stories around the impact that that’s had on young people. Just saying thank you for the impact. Thank you for what you’ve done, giving a kid a chance to feel seen, and then also to promote positive behaviors in a way that shows kids that they can have an impact on someone, whether it’s small or huge or one person or a community, that when we start to articulate these things to kids, they can see value in themselves, and that’s how you feel really empowered.

Donovan Taylor Hall
I also apologize a lot. I think that that’s a huge one that shows kids that they deserve respect. So if I’ve made a mistake, or even in moments where things have gotten kind of tough and I didn’t access my best self in that conversation, just coming back and saying like, hey, I know that was tough. I apologize. Right. Or especially if I’m wrong, like and just saying that you deserve to to be seen and you deserve to have someone apologize when they’ve caused harm has been really helpful. So gratitude and apologizing and then just really trying to come from a place of offering. And I think that’s what made education so tough for me because education is very much like this is the right answer. I have it. I need you to get to it. But when you’re talking to young people about their personal lives and you’re talking to them about how they feel and their problems, I think one of the biggest things that frustrates kids is that adults want to jump in and say, I know exactly what to do. I’ve been in this exact same situation. Trust me, I’m the adult, I know better. Just offering and saying like, can I offer this to you? And you can leave it or take it. And most of the times when I do that, kids are so receptive. And sometimes they don’t take it and that’s okay, right?

Donovan Taylor Hall
And so I respect your choice. You know, you are the expert of your life. That’s how I view, like working with kids is helping them build their credibility and being the expert of who they are, what they have to offer, their wants, their needs, like their struggles, all of these things, they should feel empowered to take hold of. So holding space for young people and just offering. I said three, but a fourth one, which is connected, is asking kids what they need. Sometimes kids don’t know, and that’s okay because it gets them thinking. I’ve had times where I’ve asked kids four times in tough moments, like, what do you need from me?

Donovan Taylor Hall
And they’re like, I don’t know. And then that fifth time, they’re like, can you just listen? Or can you give me some advice? Or can I rant and you don’t make eye contact with me while I say these things? And I’m like, yeah. So it builds their capacity to ask for the support and they’re like, I don’t know. And then that fifth time, they’re like, can you just listen? Or can you give me some advice? Or can I rant and you don’t make eye contact with me while I say these things? And I’m like, yeah. So it builds their capacity to ask for the support

Sam Demma
Brilliant. It’s so great. So great. I can’t help but think about the fact that you’ve coached hundreds of young people, had so many calls, and helping them with one of these four things. Can you provide an example of a student that was impacted by one of those four strategies that you would have used on a call with a student or in a classroom or during a speaking engagement?

Donovan Taylor Hall
Yeah, I think one of the things, especially with middle schoolers, high schoolers, it can be a little bit tougher because I think sometimes they’ve built stronger walls, which is okay. I mean, I get why kids do that. I had a young man in one of my classes and he did this thing where he always asked, can I help? And in the beginning of the day, the kids would have free reign to run around outside before classes start. And he would always be outside my door and he would poke his head in and be like, is there anything I can do to help? And I remember like, we kind of made it a butt of the joke for a while where it’s like, oh man, I don’t know why this kid always does this and blah, blah, blah. So I started to just like, you know, observe him and make sure that he was doing okay, because I thought maybe he didn’t have anyone to talk to, but he had friends, he played sports with other kids, like, that didn’t seem to be this issue, but he was always there to offer hand. And so I just said, you know, I’m just going to thank him.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And I wrote him a gratitude letter, which is a huge thing I do for kids, and say this is the impact it has on me on days where I’m running late, and I’m like, yes, please put these chairs down for me, that would be so helpful. And he read it, and I asked him, like, the next time I saw him, I was like, well, what do you think? And he said he had never had adults say thank you before. And he was a seventh grader, and I just thought that was wild because he was actively trying to do good as much as he could and to never be seen and to never have an adult say thank you. I don’t know. I think it’s just a missed opportunity to help him recognize that this is like a positive skill that he’s showing character when he’s trying to support and help other people. And so I think about him a lot when it comes to making sure that the kids I work with feel seen and appreciated by me, even if it’s just like, hey, I know this is a tough conversation, thanks for being in it with me. Just I think it really encourages and promotes more of that positive behavior. Instead of telling people you should do this because I expect this of you, being like this is how this made me feel shows them the power of their choice and it shows them the power of the action and the consequence, which is a positive consequence of stepping out and doing something outside of yourself. So I always kind of credit it back to him. I just remember his face when he just said, like, no, no adults ever said thank you before. And I think for the rest of actually follow up, when he was in eighth grade, I got all of his teachers from seventh grade and eighth grade to record a little thank you to him, to be like, here’s what you’ve done for me. And we put it into a YouTube video. 

Donovan Taylor Hall
And I gave it to him because I wanted, I just wanted him to know, like, and I don’t, you don’t know what’s going on in kids’ lives. You don’t know who they have access to. You don’t know how they’re treated at home, how they feel like in their home life, or even with other kids and stuff like that. And so if I can be one person that says, you had an impact on me and I’m, my life has changed or my situation has changed because you’re in it, that to me is like the ultimate form of empowerment for young people.

Sam Demma
It’s obvious that you have a empathetic, caring, and servant heart, and that empathetic, caring, and serving heart could have taken you in a hundred different professions. Why are you doing the work that you do?

Donovan Taylor Hall
I struggled as a kid, and I really bought into what was told to me, which was get good grades, have friends, right, do what you’re supposed to do and you’ll feel good. But I had such a deep, I was like, this is dramatic. I had a really deep well of sadness as a young person. I experienced multiple losses as a kid and because I felt like it wasn’t okay to be sad or it wasn’t okay to ask for support. I mean, this was a long time ago, so mental health wasn’t even talked about like that. I got disillusioned with school because it was like, this is basically an unpaid job and I don’t have, like, I don’t want to do this, I don’t really care about this. But my mental health really, really deteriorated, like, rapidly like rapidly once I hit like freshman year of high school. But I kept doing what was expected of me and kept telling myself if I do this, eventually I’ll feel better because that’s kind of what was told to me. That’s like really what we talk to kids about. And it just didn’t work. So by the time I got to college, my mental health was so low that it was almost like a no turning back moment. And what really kind of pulled me out of it was I started working with kids.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And I just, I don’t know, I’m like a person that likes to speak good into other people. That’s kind of how I’ve been as a friend. And so when I started doing it with kids and just like hyping them up, like their faces, man, their faces, they were so like receptive to it and it motivated them and it empowered them. And then really getting to do skill building with kids, it was like kind of my saving grace. So I started to learn how to take care of myself in ways that I didn’t learn as a kid. And then that was just aligned with me working with kids. So then I just started to bring it into my work. I was like teaching acting and being like, now we’re going to talk about grassy, or now we’re going to talk about intention setting specifically because I just wanted to see like how kids would respond to it and the responses were amazing and so that’s when I decided like if these skills are out here and we’re waiting till kids are you know in their mid-20s to start healing and unpacking and figuring out who they are then we need to go to an earlier state. We need to like catch them at an earlier age and offer these tools to them so they can grow with themselves versus like growing against themselves, which is what I see from so many kids, the ones who are engaged with their schoolwork, the ones who are disengaged with their schoolwork, the kids who have a sense of purpose, the kids who don’t. There’s just a lack of capacity to take care of themselves and to really feel good about innate humanity versus meeting society’s expectations of them.

Sam Demma
Sometimes people that are in positions that are about serving others, like education, like the work that you do as a speaker and a consultant and a coach, it’s harder to set aside that time to take care of ourselves. Sometimes we forget there are so many educators who spend hours every single day pouring into their students, work overtime, work on weekends, and then burn themselves out. What is your advice for an educator who is putting the student at the heart of everything they do when it comes to making sure they take care of themselves?

Donovan Taylor Hall
I think one of the biggest things that I think we need to recognize is that kids are watching us. Kids are watching us and they’re taking views from us on how to be and how to show up. And especially with social media, like kids are aware of how teachers feel and what teachers are going through. And when I built relationships with my students, they wanted to offer support and things like that. But when I first started getting into this in the classroom, I had a huge wake-up call because I was like, I’m here all the time. Like if you need me, I’m here, come talk to me. And kids did.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And it was great. And it also completely sunk my mental health because I was so worried and stressed and not only about their grades, but how they felt and what’s going on with them and how do they feel about their future and how can I take care of them. And I had a boss who was like, you have to stop. Like you have to. And I remember being so enraged because it was like, bro, this is what I care about. And I didn’t understand at the time that he was trying to warn me that like, that’s not sustainable. And then how do I create boundaries that help me protect myself? And so when I think about kids watching me, I was talking with a group of my kids, they’re seniors now. And I was talking about when I taught them in seventh and eighth grade. And I was just having a candid conversation. I sometimes do a growth group with them. And I asked them, like, what is something that you remember from us working together? And three of them were like, oh, that week you took off. And because you were really struggling. And I like told them, like, this has nothing to do with you all. I love you all. I’ve just been working too hard. I need to take some time away. And because they were worried, like one of the kids said to me back then, like, are we being too obnoxious? And I was like, no, it’s not you. I just like I’m not feeling good and I need to take care of myself. And so to have these three students years later be like, that’s what they remembered. That was something that stuck out to them, shows the power of influence. And I think working with teachers and kids, like articulating boundaries, articulating needs in safe ways, humanizing yourself as much as you can that protects you and keeps you safe, I think can be a really powerful experience for young people to see someone advocating for themselves because where else are they gonna see that, right?

Donovan Taylor Hall
I think that’s just a really powerful thing. So I think it’s that idea of like, my mom told me this phrase when I was a kid, which is, you can’t be a shoulder to lean on if you’re not standing up straight, which has its own issues just in terms of like ability, right? But the thought behind it really stuck out to me because when I was in my 20s and I was doing all this work, the second lowest I was ever at my life was because I was doing like six jobs and they were all dedicated to working with young people. And I was just pouring and pouring and pouring. And that led to me having to drop out of grad school. It led to me having to like sleep in my car for a few days because I just was not taking care of myself. So I had to understand that the work will always be here and you won’t.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And so you have to be responsible for taking care of yourself. So it’s sustainable. And this connects back directly to why I teach this to kids is like, no one is going to force you to take care of yourself, right? But if you want to be the best version of yourself and show up in yourself grounded and connected to your why, you have to take care of yourself. You are not an infinite source of energy. And especially as I get older, speaking at schools and doing all these things, I’ve realized pretty quickly I don’t have the same energy I did when I was younger. And so that means I got to take more time to cultivate and like take care of myself so I can go out and do these things and be the person that I want to be. And it used to feel selfish and now it feels great. I used to need to be around people all the time and now I will do like a back flip if someone tells me I get a week to myself just to have some time with me. I’m like, bro, I spent so much of my life being around other people. And as I did the self love work and grew a good relationship with myself, I wanted to spend time with myself the same way that you would want to spend time with a best friend or a partner. When you have that care and that love for that person, you want to spend time with them. And so spending time for myself, shutting things off, separating Donofriend and Donovan, right? And understanding that Donofriend, Donovan, Donofriend doesn’t exist without Donofriend. That’s like the huge, like that’s the biggest thing I had to tell myself. It’s like sometimes I get so worried about am I doing all the things I could be doing? Is this dream working? But like if Donovan goes, Donovan is gone. There is no Donovan, right? And so if I don’t take care of Donovan, then I’m indirectly not taking care of Donovan, if that makes sense.

Sam Demma
Yeah, if educators don’t take care of themselves, there’s no way they can impact the students in their classrooms. They won’t even be in the classroom. They’ll be somewhere else trying to recover or heal.

Donovan Taylor Hall
Yeah, and it’s tough because, you know, in America, how teachers are treated in terms of, like at one school I worked at, it was like a crazy amount of the staff members had second jobs just to make ends meet. And so I think that I also, it’s really important to acknowledge that that responsibility is not all on teachers, right? Is it when you’re put in these conditions where you’re overworked and you’re underpaid and you’re not getting the support that you need and the expectations for you are too high, right?

Donovan Taylor Hall
And unrealistic. And then they try to do the whole like we’re a family here and and kind of bend the teachers want to help and try to use that to almost manipulate teachers into doing more, then that responsibility shouldn’t be put on the teachers, right? If they had the space and they had the time and the energy, I’m sure a lot more teachers would take care of themselves, but that’s just how the system has been built around them. So it’s kind of like, I got to tell you, Sam, it’s kind of like when schools are telling kids, like, practice self-care, and then they are the ones that are putting the stress on kids. Like, it doesn’t, it’s like, it’s your job to take care of it, but what does self-care for kids look like? What can kids actually do for themselves to take care of themselves without having to bump into other people’s expectations of them? And that’s how I think about it with teachers. I have so much respect for the teachers that have stayed, and I have a lot of respect for the teachers that left. You gotta do what’s right for you. And if you can’t show up in your true self, then you gotta like handle that. And if that means stepping away or advocating for yourself more, you gotta do what you gotta do. But that responsibility is not all on teachers. And I think it’s unfair for us to shout self-care at teachers without recognizing these overarching implications and conditions that cause teachers to burn out.

Sam Demma
It’s such a good point. What does these days self-care look like for you?

Donovan Taylor Hall
Oh, man, reading and not be clear because I tell people I read all the time. I will read like between three to five books a week. I’m not kidding. Like I am obsessed with reading and then people will be like, oh, like, what are you learning? And I’m like, I don’t really read to learn. I read to be entertained straight up. You’re the first person I’ve said this to on a podcast. I read horror books. Those are my favorite. Like if I had to just pivot completely and do something different, it would be like reviewing horror books because that’s something that takes care of me. But I picked that because it has nothing to do with my work. It’s like, it’s thrilling and I love these stories so much, but it’s also time I get to spend with myself. And so yesterday I went to the library and checked out 13 books. Just excited to be there. So that’s a huge one. And then recently I started IACing, which I really like being in nature. I think anytime I can kind of shut other people out and just be with myself and then follow up spending time with people that I love and people that I care about. Those are like the three main things, doing things that I enjoy, spending time with people that I care about. And then hygiene, like mental, spiritual, emotional, physical hygiene, like taking care of myself, my practices that help me feel sustainable, help my energy feel sustainable. Those are the ways that I do that. And I sleep a lot, which I was, I felt bad for a while, but then someone, a 17 year old kid that I was working with, who I’ve been working with for years, brought this up where it was like, when kids go through puberty and they’re growing rapidly, they need sleep. And he specifically said, think about how much you’ve been doing in the past two years. Like you’re basically growing at this like accelerated rate. And so it makes sense that you need to sleep. And this is from a 17 year old, a 17 year old that I worked with when she was in middle school telling her the same stuff. And I think that there’s a lot of power in sharing those conversations with young people. It’s the human condition, and kids are human. And it sounds silly to say it, but it needs to be said, because sometimes they’re treated like they’re not.

Sam Demma
It sounds like that 17-year-old made you feel seen, and you’ve spent most of your life striving to make other people feel seen. Tell me what this phrase means to you going into 2024, pushing past the fear of being seen.

Donovan Taylor Hall
Yeah, I, as a young person, like, I was considered like a gifted child for a while. And then when I didn’t do well on tests, it took me out. And I had this idea that I had to be good all the time. And that’s really what protected me as a young person. And good was different from whoever I was talking about. So for the adults, I got good grades. I was in orchestra, I was in German club, right? I had friends. And then when in high school, I started to do all the things that my friends wanted to do and really kind of like wanting people to see me as good. And that really made me hide I was able to hide a lot of how I felt. And when I did those things, I wasn’t able to take care of myself because I wasn’t acknowledging how I was feeling. And that, when I don’t acknowledge how I feel, when we don’t acknowledge how we feel, it’s hard to get the support that we need. That’s like the first step. And so, you know, I started doing TikTok videos because the kids told me to, and it was the first chance I got to show teaching this curriculum without exposing kids, which is like, I think, a huge problem with some of the social media, just like using kids for likes, unless it’s really empowering and positive or even if they’re talking about stuff like safe spaces for them to do that.

Donovan Taylor Hall
And then I didn’t know that where that was going to go, but I told myself I was going to take a year off and just grow. I was like, I’m pushing past this feeling of I have to be good, this perfectionism feeling that has only made me stay in my lane for most of my life. I only do what I feel like I’m good at and I don’t try other things because I don’t like to feel bad at something. And then I was gonna take a year off, like literally, and just live in my mom’s basement and like make YouTube videos and stream on Twitch and try to grow my content. And then the Today Show found me a month before I left. And it was that same experience that when I was a kid of like, look at all these people who have these high expectations for you. I mean, being called the next Mr. Rogers, when I didn’t even know what I wanted to do, put so much pressure on me. And so I started to struggle with my content. I really, I started to like be afraid to take chances and take risks and do the things that I know that I wanted to do, these projects that were really important to me, the ones that really called to me, I was afraid to do it because people said, this is what we like about you. And I stuck to that. And this is something that in the past few months has really changed for me of like, I don’t wanna look back and have these projects that I’ve put so much heart into never come into fruition because I was afraid of being seen as vulnerable.

Donovan Taylor Hall
I was afraid of not looking good all the time. And, and to be clear too, this is the weirdest part about it. Somehow, in the three years I’ve been on TikTok, I don’t, I don’t get negative feedback from people. Like sometimes people will question something and you can have a conversation, but you’ve seen the internet. It can be pretty brutal, right? Nothing. So I was just like, had these videos that hit a million views. I had like three videos that hit over a million. And I was so afraid of taking chances and taking risks that I just hid. And that also spilled into my personal life of like getting closer with people and doing things that I really wanted to. I had to push past this fear of like being seen. And DonoFriend is great because DonoFriend represents the work, but DonoFriend is a fraction of who I am, and I’m trying to push past that fear of being vulnerable and being seen truly to do the things that I want to do.

Donovan Taylor Hall
So specifically with my work, my biggest thing is like, I like to laugh. Humor is a big part of my work. Like my kids, when they told me to make a TikTok, they wanted me to make funny TikToks. They wanted me to like show the funny moments in class. And I got stuck in this box that I don’t know who put me in it. I know I kept myself in it, but I got stuck in this box that was like, I got to be emotional. I got to do like this Mr. Rogers thing. Like I got to just be soft and gentle. When in reality, like that’s not really what brought kids in, you know, kids were brought in by my fun and my humor. And so this year, like that’s what I’m pushing for is to laugh more and have fun and to show that side of myself and kind of bring kids in that way versus like thinking I have to stay in my lane, I don’t wanna look back, I don’t wanna look in the office, I don’t wanna look like I don’t know what I’m doing, I don’t wanna let people down. I, the Today Show was a huge opportunity and Hoda is amazing. I’ve never been starstruck until I met someone, until I met Hoda, but like even feeling like I was letting these people down who were like taking a chance on my story, but in reality, there is no timeline. There is a timeline that we create for ourselves. And I just feel it deep in my bones.

Donovan Taylor Hall
Like I’m ready to be seen. I don’t want to hide in my room anymore. I don’t want to hide behind safe, you know, things. I want to put myself out there, especially if this is something that I want to like teach kids. So I’m using the skills that I teach young people to build myself up, to be able to go out there and struggle and grow and succeed in the ways that I want to. So that’s really what the theme for my year is. This is the year I want to be seen, like Donovan and Donovan equally. One thing I admire about you is your intention to serve the world and serve the people around you. 

Donovan Taylor Hall
I’m so excited for 2024 to see what you do and how things unfold in your world and for the students and teachers that you impact. Keep up the amazing work. Thank you for letting your light shine. Keep it shining because the world needs your energy and it needs your authenticity and it needs both Donovan and Donald Friend. If someone wants to connect with you after listening to this podcast, they’re feeling inspired or have a question, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you? 

Donovan Taylor Hall
Social media is the best way right now. Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok are where I post my content. And I also stream video games for kids. That’s something that I really enjoy doing, because the skills that I teach kids show up very similarly in video game playing. So DonoFriend across everything, if you type DonoFriend in, all my work will pop up, but I’m always hoping to connect with other people, especially educators, and for any educator listening, I just appreciate you on such a deep level. I may not know you as a person, but for you to give so much of yourself to help people grow, and especially people who may not recognize it or may not articulate these things to you, it’s huge. And just going back to what I said, is if you were looking for one thing to do to build relationships is really try to see kids, really try to see them as individuals and look for opportunities to articulate what you see in them to them.

Donovan Taylor Hall
Because kids are looking, kids are looking for ways to understand themselves and we’re in a really unique opportunity to provide perspective for them. So thank you, Sam, you’re my boy, I appreciate you always. But please follow up if you have any connections or thoughts, I’d love to hear from you. or thoughts, I’d love to hear from you.

Sam Demma
Keep up the great work, my man, this is awesome.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Donovan Taylor Hall

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.