Wellbeing

Jacqueline Butler — Deputy Head of Student Life and Wellbeing at Holy Trinity School

Jacqueline Butler — Deputy Head of Student Life and Wellbeing at Holy Trinity School
About Jacqueline Butler

Meet Jacqueline Butler—an educator, leader, and lifelong learner who’s passionate about redefining what school can be. As the Deputy Head of Student Life and Wellbeing at Holy Trinity School in Richmond Hill, Canada, Jacqueline has spent the past 22 years fostering a learning environment that connects students with their passions, their well-being, and the world around them.

Her journey has taken her from the science lab to the gymnasium, always with a focus on creating meaningful, human-centred learning experiences. Right now, she’s working on integrating student life with academics, helping students develop the skills and mindsets they need to be changemakers in an ever-evolving world. She believes that in a world where humans are increasingly falling out of relationship with each other and the natural world, school needs to be a place that is based in community, where students discover, connect, grow, and take risks—without fear of judgment.

When she’s not thinking about the future of education, you can find Jacqueline hiking, skiing, or taking in a peaceful waterfront view with her husband, son and daughter. A former Queen’s University basketball player, she still finds joy in coaching, with a focus on teamwork, and inspiring young athletes to commit to something bigger than themselves.

Connect with Jacqueline Butler: Email | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Holy Trinity School

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator podcast. This is your host Sam Demma and today we are joined by Jacqueline Butler. As deputy head of student life and well being at Holy Trinity School in Richmond Hill, Jacqueline has dedicated 22 years to reimagining education through a human centered lens. Her journey from science teacher to educational leader reflects her commitment to creating learning environments where students can discover their passions, develop as change makers, and build meaningful connections with their community and the natural world.

Sam Demma
A former Queens University basketball player turned coach, and she’s still got moves y’all, Jacqueline brings her passion for teamwork and personal growth to every aspect of her work while balancing her professional dedication with family, time spent hiking, skiing, and enjoying waterfront views with her husband and children. Jacqueline, it is a privilege and pleasure to have you on the show here today. Thank you so much for being here.

Jacqueline Butler
Thank you for having me. I was listening to some past episodes and you keep very good company, so I’m very honored to have been asked and to be here, spend time with you, Sam.

Sam Demma
I can’t wait to dive in. Can you please start by introducing yourself and just sharing a little bit about why you got into education?

Jacqueline Butler
So, so yeah, so I have been, um, a for, that’s been my whole career. And I graduated from university and took an adventure overseas to London and England to do some teaching over there, and then made my way back over to HTS and I’ve been here ever since.

Jacqueline Butler
So a really, really long time, had an early adventure, but I know a lot of people, you know, move around in their career, but I have found a place that I feel like I really belong and that I love so much. And so that’s me and kind of my little story, but I got into teaching really because I wasn’t ready to grow up yet. That’s how it started actually. And that I, all the things that I loved doing, in my youth, I felt like I could continue to do those things as an educator, and a sort of positive role model for for other young people. So, you know, I come to work every day, and I still get to sing out loud in chapel. I still get to play in the gym, whether I’m teaching or coaching. I still get to go on trips. I still get to do all of the things that I used to love to do as a kid, except just in a different role as the adult in the room now. So that’s how I got started in education.

Sam Demma
Tell me more about what brought you overseas at the start of your career.

Jacqueline Butler
So I was a student obviously in Teachers College and there were schools coming over to Queens to do some interviews. They’re doing their recruiting and I knew I was going to be in the workforce coming up really soon. And so I thought I better get some practice. So I signed up for these interviews because I’d never had a professional interview yet. And I thought this would be a great idea. So I went and sat down

Jacqueline Butler
and had some really amazing conversations with some other educators from around the world. And I never once considered that, you know a job offer would be on the table, but sure enough, it was. And then all of a sudden it was just, why not? So I really never had a plan to do it, but when the opportunity was presented to me, I didn’t have a reason not to do it. So off I went.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. Some of my favorite memories are from my own childhood experience of traveling to Italy for six months. And I think that earlier in any career, it’s such a valuable experience to gather different perspectives from different communities around the globe. It helps shift our perspectives and have more of a holistic view on things. You’ve been in education now, you know, 22 years.

Sam Demma
How has your vision of what school can be? How has that evolved? Oh, yeah, how’s that evolved over the years?

Jacqueline Butler
Well, it’s interesting, I’ve been in the game a little bit longer than that, actually, not that I want to date myself, but it’s just I’ve been at HTS for 22 years. But I think that when I was younger, I felt very much like I needed to stick to the script, right? Like I was very much focused on the curriculum standards and ticking the boxes and getting done what I needed to get done. And as I’ve grown and matured and become more in tune with what my students need or the students need. I’ve been able to focus on them more as people and individuals and young growing minds and souls and spirits to be able to actually meet them where they are as opposed to like having a set goal in mind. So for me, that has been the major shift in terms of, yes, just maybe taking the curriculum standards a little more seriously when you were younger and growing into a more holistic educator that’s really, really concerned with the whole child, which can take you down many different paths, oftentimes a different path, many different times in the same day. And being the whole child being the center of what education is and what it can be, as opposed to a set path.

Sam Demma
How do you build a connection with a student to the point where you really truly understand their needs? Sometimes it feels like certain educators connect really well with their students and others want to, but struggle to do so. What do you think some of the principles are to build those connections?

Jacqueline Butler
I think that there’s probably many different answers to that question because there’s, you know, many different personalities, many different connection points for different students and the other adults in the room. But for myself personally, I always connect back to the why. Like, you know, why am I in this? Why am I doing this? And the answer is always the same. The answer is always I’m doing this for them. So if that’s in fact the case, then I can’t really get too far down the road unless I know them. So it’s about the relationship building. It’s about the questions that you’re asking.

Jacqueline Butler
It’s about caring enough to know what matters, what matters to each individual person, understanding their goals, understanding their challenges. And the really, really, really important piece, I think, is finding a way to get each student to know themself first. And taking that coaching stance in terms of helping each individual learn who they are,

Jacqueline Butler
what makes them tick, not what they wanna be when they grow up, but what they want to spend their life doing.

Sam Demma
It makes me think of some educators I’ve had that really got to know me on a personal level and understand what I was passionate about outside of their classrooms, to the point where they would teach a lesson and at the end of the lesson say,

Sam Demma
Sam, for you, this means X, And Jacqueline, for you and your passions, this lesson means X. And it just felt so personalized, despite the fact that there was another 30 students in the class. And I’ll never really forget those specific moments.

Sam Demma
Sometimes young people put a lot of pressure on themselves with so many different expectations and goals and dreams and things going on in the world. How do you think we balance that healthy ambition in a student with the challenge of them putting so much pressure on themselves these days?

Jacqueline Butler
There is a lot of pressure. It might be a cop-out, but my answer is a little bit the same. It’s just in the sense that until you really know and understand yourself, you could be tempted to be trying to do a whole bunch of different things for different people or different things for different outcomes that don’t necessarily connect with your own personal passions and your own personal you know desires and on top of that if you don’t really know yourself yet it’s really hard to know where you want to go. So in that in that sense I think it’s it’s just super important that

Jacqueline Butler
students are staying true to themselves, that they’re doing the hard work, the self-reflection, the self-awareness, they’re focused on what it means to be a good human, a good citizen of the world, and then you layer in, you know, your interests and your passions and maybe a way to make money somehow in there along the way. But staying true to yourself, I think is the key to that because then you can sort of cut the noise out, right?

Jacqueline Butler
And not have to feel like you have to be everything to everybody at the same time.

Sam Demma
One of the things you’re helping students be at HTS is change makers. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it means to be a change maker and how we foster those characteristics and skills in, in students?

Jacqueline Butler
Yeah, I think, um, in one context, a changemaker connects directly with the word impact. And if you’re able to make an impact, and that impact can be at the local level, you know, maybe in your own class, or your own school, or you can extend that impact out to the community, you can go further, and, you know, into a different country or whatever the case may be. But I think to be a changemaker means that you’ve identified an issue,

Jacqueline Butler
that you’ve learned and understood the issue, that you’ve created empathy for the people that are being affected by the issue. And then you have dedicated your time, effort and energy to find out what the need actually is not what you think the need is, but but what the need actually is. And then you put a plan in place to make a change or make a difference.

Jacqueline Butler
So I think finding opportunities and experiences that give students the skills to be able to take those steps is what it means to be a changemaker because it can be in any field, in any place. There’s no limit to what it means to be a changemaker.

Sam Demma
One of the things I noticed at HTS, every student says hello, waves, smile on their face, looking for opportunities to help each other, eat lunch with each other. Tell me more about how the school staff is intentional about building that culture of inclusion and belonging and kindness and respect and how another school may borrow some of those ideas to try and build

Jacqueline Butler
that culture within their community. So I feel like we have a really strong community at HTS and I at the same time, I’m comfortable saying that we’re on a journey and we have some growth to do in that area as well. I think we do place a lot of value on the concept of belonging. I think we we put the right vocabulary in place and we create opportunities to come together in community, which obviously fosters those relationships. And this may be a little off topic, but I think one of the biggest challenges

Jacqueline Butler
that everybody’s facing right now is that people are falling out of relationship with themselves, they’re falling out of relationship with other people and they’re falling out of relationship with the earth. And there’s a lot happening out there in the world that makes it easy for that to happen. And so I think our jobs in a school like HTS where we really do value that community and those connections and those relationships is that you have to be very intentional. Now, more I think than ever before in teaching those skills, like there’s skills connected to it. And I think, you know, for a long time, you kind of gloss over that these

Jacqueline Butler
things are happening and people are showing the signs and symptoms of belongingness and togetherness. But if we don’t focus on being intentional in terms of what we talk about, how we talk, bringing people such as yourself into our community to speak about what it means to show up in a relationship and be a positive member of a relationship, then I think we miss opportunities to really like instill those values and skills.

Sam Demma
Tell me more about the falling out of relationship with the world, the natural world. I would love to dive into that for a moment.

Jacqueline Butler
Oh man, I wish I had the answer, like, you know, this is an area for myself that, you know, causes me a little bit of internal discomfort or stress. So I think in my in my learnings and readings, as they call it the the meta crisis,

Jacqueline Butler
right, the breakdown of the interconnectedness of global systems, you know, with technology, science, information, the environment, economics, psychology, culture, politics, all these things. It’s very complicated, like it’s beyond my sort of scope of obviously fully understanding, but I can tell you that I can definitely feel it.

Jacqueline Butler
So I mean, some professional communities that I’m a part of, finding pockets of people who notice this falling out of relationship, who are open to talk about it, and who feel strongly about doing something about it, I think that’s kind of where I find a little bit of inner peace around it. But it is a major challenge that our young people have to confront, come face to face with, because, yeah, things are changing, things are different. And again, that’s why the role of us as educators is so critical.

Jacqueline Butler
Because what are we doing? What skills are we instilling? What things are we teaching and talking about that will prepare young people to be able to deal with, you know, these changes, the potential chaos, collapse, whatever you want to call it. So like, we have a really, really big, important role to play in all of this. And so, you know, I think specifically at HTS, we are really working hard to

Jacqueline Butler
potentially disrupt the way education looks and the way that we interact with our students, moving towards more of a mentorship model with our students so that they have that close relationship and we’re building in the skills in a set kind of plan, a set plan that meets the students where they are and gives them the skills that they need to be able to meet these challenges in the future.

Sam Demma
Like skill-based learning versus subject-based learning.

Jacqueline Butler
Yes, or learning the skills through a subject and being more interdisciplinary and having learning experiences with people that are not all the same age as you, you know, that are not all talking about the same subject at the same time, but really having opportunities

Jacqueline Butler
with internships and capstones and all of the different projects and programs that we’re exploring here at HDS, but to create a more like holistic, human-centered version of education that breaks down the silos and creates learning opportunities that are more authentic to us as a human being. Again, we

Jacqueline Butler
kind of school… It’s not natural in the sense of if you think of experiences where you’ve had your most authentic learning, you probably weren’t, everybody that you were with wasn’t the same age as you talking about the exact same topic as you in a room. It probably didn’t feel like that. So, how can we recreate learning opportunities that really feel more authentic to what it means to have positive learning out in the

Jacqueline Butler
world.

Jacqueline Butler
Yeah.

Sam Demma
What other things would you re-imagine in a school, you know, if you could disrupt education as a whole? Are there other things that you think would be places you’d start? Yeah, I’m curious what other things you think should, could be disrupted in the next couple of years and kind of need to be in some ways.

Jacqueline Butler
Yeah. Again, it’s a, it’s who can predict it, right? Like who can predict exactly what’s going to happen. But, um, you know, we know that technology is a game changer. We know that we can use it for good and we can use it for bad. But I think we have to separate ourselves from the concept of the four walls, right, of a building that if the pandemic taught us anything, it’s able to send students out into the world to do their internships to do their projects and, you know, be able to get their credits while doing other things at the same time. these constructs that we think must be true in order to, I’m using air quotes here, I know we’re an audio only, but to do school.

Jacqueline Butler
So yeah, that we need to kind of just look beyond what we’ve come to expect or accept as what school is.

Sam Demma
When you think of your own educational experience, can you identify a few mentors or caring adults that had a big impact on you? And if so, what did those specific individuals do for you that made all the difference?

Jacqueline Butler
So therein lies the lesson, right? So here I am talking about how, you know, the constructs of school maybe don’t serve us as human beings, but at the end of the day, I have had amazing experiences in school, just the way that it is now. And the interesting thing is because of the relationships. So that will never change, right?

Jacqueline Butler
You mentioned it as well. The power of the relationships with you that you have with other people is like the number one indicator of happiness.

Jacqueline Butler
Right?

Jacqueline Butler
The more positive relationships you have in your life, the happier you’re going to be. Even when there’s crap. You know what I mean? Like even when things are rough, if you have positive relationships and the same is true with school,

Jacqueline Butler
like if you have those positive relationships around you, you can still accomplish all these wonderful things. So, for me personally, I had coaches in high school, I had coaches in high school, I had coaches in university. The difference for me was that it was about me. Like they wanted to know what my goals were.

Jacqueline Butler
What do you want to accomplish? What matters to you? What’s challenging you these days? How can I be helpful? So to me, again, just having that personalized connection with somebody who has your best interest at heart

Jacqueline Butler
is a difference maker in terms of how you’re gonna be successful. So if you know that somebody is caring about you, if you know if somebody knows what your goals are and where you wanna be and is there to support you and guide you, you have that person that you can go to

Jacqueline Butler
that you can ask the questions. I think that’s what makes the big difference, yeah.

Sam Demma
You mentioned coaches and I know that athletics have played a large part of your entire life. How has your background in athletics and coaching influenced your approach to educational leadership and student development?

Jacqueline Butler
Yeah, it’s really about the people working towards a common goal.

Jacqueline Butler
Yeah. It’s about the people working towards a common goal.

Jacqueline Butler
It’s about putting others ahead of self. It’s about, you know, you have to practice as hard as you want to play, right? So, you know, what do you, what do you, right? What are you doing when you’re not in the big game to enable you to deserve to win the big game is really important.

Jacqueline Butler
It’s a little off topic, but I saw something recently that I really loved and it’s so simple. The person’s name is Dr. Becky. Now, I’m sure she has a last name, but it wasn’t shared. She’s from Duke.

Jacqueline Butler
She’s from Duke. And her concept of the difference or the space between not knowing something and knowing something, right? Being pure frustration, right? The difference between when you don’t know something

Jacqueline Butler
and you do something is filled with frustration. It’s uncomfortable, it’s hard. And then you get to the point of where you know it and you have this huge sense of accomplishment. So it’s the same with sport, right? You’re not doing well and then you are doing well.

Jacqueline Butler
What happened in between? That’s the magic, right? And the skill that we need to put in place, whether it be athletics or education, is this concept that she calls frustration tolerance. And I thought, oh my goodness, like that is so simple, yet so amazing. So if we can, you know, help young people or old people, any, any to stay to the course through the frustration. The more that we can practice frustration tolerance, the more successful we will be

Jacqueline Butler
in terms of reaching our goals and getting to where we want to be when the going gets tough. So I think whether you’re talking about athletics, whether you’re talking about, you know, academics or education, how can you stay the course? How can you stick with something when you know it’s hard? Some people call it resilience, some people call it grit,

Jacqueline Butler
but the real skill of it is how do you live in that uncomfortable space between not knowing something and knowing something and have the skill to be tolerant through frustration?

Sam Demma
I think it’s such a cool way to look at growth. One of my friends always said, Sam, I hope you find something to struggle well on. It made me think of that. Life is about choosing things worth struggling for. And then it’s how much can we struggle? How frustrated can we, how much can we tolerate before we make a decision to try something else or keep moving forward? So I love that idea. And Dr. Becky from Duke, last name that we don’t know, we appreciate you.

Jacqueline Butler
We appreciate you. I loved it.

Sam Demma
This has been such a lovely conversation about what it means to build a relationship with a young person. Some of your insights that you’ve pulled from athletics and coaching and how, you know, how has you like looking through a lens in education, the importance of building community and some of the disruptions that may happen in education in the future.

Sam Demma
And that relationships are still at the center of all the work that we do in a school building and how important those are. I really appreciate your time and the work that you’re doing at HTS. I hope it continues for a very long time. Keep up the amazing work. You’re helping lots of young people and I look forward to crossing paths again soon.

Jacqueline Butler
Thank you, Sam. It’s been a pleasure.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Jacqueline Butler

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

May 1, 2025 by Educator Student Leadership Student Success Student-Centered Leadership Wellness Coordinator 0

Sylvain Bastien – High school teacher/guidance counsellor at École Secondaire Catholique Renaissance

Sylvain Bastien – High school teacher/guidance counsellor at École Secondaire Catholique Renaissance
About Sylvain Bastien

Sylvain Bastien is a high school teacher/guidance counsellor at École Secondaire Catholique Renaissance in Aurora, Ontario.  He is a proud franco-ontarian, born and raised in northern Ontario who enjoys the little things in life, or “petits bonheurs” as he likes to call them.  Former camp counsellor, gymnastics coach and national-level athlete, Sylvain spent most of his time growing up in a leadership role or working with kids.  He knew from a young age that he would become a teacher and continues to be a leader in his school community.  

For the first part of his career, Sylvain was a physical education teacher and shared his passion for a healthy and active lifestyle with students in courses like Fitness and Kinesiology.  He then moved to a guidance position before the pandemic and, with the help of his colleague, is continuously finding new ways to improve student well-being, student engagement and school spirit, all with the end goal of helping students become the very best version of themselves. 

Sylvain coaches the cross-country and track and field teams, works with the student council and helps with many other clubs and activities at the school.  He leads the SHSM Program at the school and has been a department lead for many years.  He is always seeking personal and professional growth by running, reading and balancing the demands of a chaotic life with three kids in sports! 

Connect with Sylvain Bastien: Email

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Resources Mentioned

École Secondaire Catholique Renaissance

SHSM Program

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Sylvain Bastien. He’s a high school teacher, guidance counselor, and one of my good friends. He is someone who I met just over a year ago now, and he’s running a lot, so you should follow him on Strava. But he’s doing a lot of good work. Sylvain, please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Sylvain Bastien
Hey, Sam. Thank you very much for having me on the show. This is a pretty cool experience, and I’m happy to be here. Like Sam said, my name is Sylvain. I’m a high school teacher. I’ve been in the education world for over 15 years now. I started out with phys ed courses, fitness classes, teaching kinesiology. And then, I’d say about seven or eight years ago, I moved over into guidance, which was a big change for me. So I have since been a full-time guidance counselor with the odd course here and there, kind of keeping my foot in the classroom, which is really what lights me up the most. So yeah, that’s pretty much where I’m at in my professional world.

Sam Demma
When you were a national-level athlete, did you think you were one day going to work in education? Like, what was your own path like as a student?

Sylvain Bastien
I feel like education was always calling my name. I’ve always been involved with different activities that involved kids or teenagers and communities. It started out, even myself when I was in high school. Every opportunity I had to do something fun and be around my peers, that would just light me up. Then I kind of took the initiative of leading different activities and kind of took over some activities, and that just lit up the fire even more.

This led me to work at summer camps for seven summers, where kids would come spend their Monday to Friday with us. It was a residential camp, so they’d stay overnight. My involvement in gymnastics obviously always had me around young athletes and kids of all ages aspiring to be the next best gymnast. So, I was always around kids, and that always kind of fueled me. I knew that once I would have to move on to my career, the education world was where I was heading.

Sam Demma
How did your own involvement in sports growing up shape your future?

Sylvain Bastien
Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I talk about that all the time. Whether it be sport or any extracurricular, I feel like that really is what shapes you as a person. And I credit many people for that in my situation. It definitely did shape me because I had the pleasure of being surrounded by individuals with the same mentality and vision as myself.

It pushes you to learn things that you don’t always learn in a school setting or at home. It makes you develop certain habits and discover new things about yourself. I feel like all those years were definitely the good years. I owe a lot of who I am today to what I did back then.

Sam Demma
Sports still continue to be a massive part of your life because you’re in the parking lot of swimming pools a few times a week, and you’re also spending lots of time running. How important do you feel exercise is in ensuring you show up to the best of your ability at school?

Sylvain Bastien
It’s always been a big part of my life. Every day I had something active or an activity going on. Because of everything that gave me as a person, I feel like I want to give it back to as many people as possible.

In the early years of my career, when I was in the fitness classes teaching kids, we’d start with a group of 15 kids who had never run before, and they didn’t want to run. All they wanted to do was lift weights. I put them on a mission and said, “Guys, we can do something pretty cool if we set our minds to it.”

My tradition with my fitness class was always to plan to run a 10k with the students. We would have the semester to do it. At the beginning of the semester, the kids were always unsure if they could do it. But then they got into the swing of things, discovered a lot about themselves, and realized they were capable of pretty big things.

Sam Demma
One of the consistent things about your career has been working with young people, whether as a coach, guidance counselor, or teacher. How do you think you build effective rapport and relationships with young people?

Sylvain Bastien
I feel like it’s a lot in what we do and what we display as a person. We have to be the leader and set the example we expect our students or kids to follow. I strive to show students that it’s okay to have fun and be yourself.

We live in a world now where everything could be made easy, but I really try to build on the satisfaction and reward factor of putting in the work and seeing progression. That feeling of pride and accomplishment is what I want them to chase.

Sam Demma
Would you be willing to share one of those moments that reminded you why you started doing this work in the first place?

Sylvain Bastien
One of my favorite moments is at the beginning of the school year, when we host a traditional camp to welcome new students. Senior students lead activities for younger students, and it’s always a highlight. It’s amazing to see students from different social circles come together, be themselves, and shine. It reminds me why I love doing this work.

Sam Demma
In a world where students are constantly comparing themselves to others on social media, what challenges do you see students carrying on their shoulders?

Sylvain Bastien
A big challenge is students being afraid to be their authentic selves. In guidance, we focus on creating an environment where students feel it’s okay to have fun and be themselves. It’s a constant effort to help them build the skills they need to succeed and thrive.

Sam Demma
You also spearhead the SHSM programs at your school. Can you explain what SHSM is?

Sylvain Bastien
SHSM stands for Specialist High Skills Major. It allows students in grades 11 and 12 to earn certifications and participate in reach-ahead experiences with college and university partners, all while earning a specialized diploma in sectors like health and wellness or business. It’s a great way for students to build skills and network in their field of interest.

Sam Demma
How do you balance your professional responsibilities with your personal life?

Sylvain Bastien
It’s definitely challenging, but my wife and I make a good team. Living an active lifestyle helps us manage everything. We’ve been fortunate to find supportive communities in our kids’ sports, and that’s been a blessing. It takes a village, and we’re lucky to have one.

Sam Demma
It’s inspiring to see how you manage everything and still make time for what’s important. If an educator wants to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to reach out?

Sylvain Bastien
The best way would be via email. I’m happy to connect with anyone looking for information.

Sam Demma
Thank you, Sylvain. Keep up the amazing work, and I look forward to running with you soon.

Sylvain Bastien
Thank you very much, Sam.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Sylvain Bastien

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

November 28, 2024 by Education Educator Mental Health Student Leadership Teachers 0

Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
About Carman Murray

Carman Murray is on a mission to empower teachers and educators to prioritize their well-being, both inside and outside the classroom. With over 20 years of experience, Carman transitioned from classroom teaching to mentoring and supporting others on their healing journeys. Her passion lies in helping educators cultivate healthy habits that transform feelings of overwhelm into renewed energy and fulfillment.

Carman’s workshops blend both the professional aspects of teaching and personal development, offering a holistic approach to educator growth. As a dynamic and authentic speaker, she delivers engaging workshops and talks that inspire educators to rekindle their life balance. Beyond her work with teachers, she volunteers at Rockyview Leadership Academy and contributes to the Canadian Student Leadership Association’s events. Carman is also the author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout, a resource dedicated to supporting educators in their journey toward wellness.

Connect with Carman: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

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THE HIGH PERFORMING EDUCATOR PODCASTCarman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
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Resources Mentioned

Canadian Student Leadership Association (CSLA)

Rockyview Leadership Academy

Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Healthy Teachers

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam, and today we are joined by a very special guest. We have crossed paths multiple times and I’m so honored to have her on the show here today. Carman Murray. Carman, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you.

Carman Murray
Sam. I’m so excited that our paths have crossed in the past more than once and that I could be here with you today. You are…

Sam Demma
…doing so much amazing work across Canada, supporting educators and teachers and all human beings with their wellbeing. And you have a passion for education because you’ve spent over 20 years of experience in the education industry. You’re speaking at events in Kelowna upcoming, you have a book. Just tell everyone tuning in a little bit more about who you are and why you’re passionate about supporting the wellbeing of others.

Carman Murray
Thanks so much, Sam. So I love supporting other people with their health and wellness. I recovered myself from burnout. I taught for 15 years and hit a wall and decided I didn’t want to do it anymore and my body actually wouldn’t let me do it. And I actually was inspired at an Alberta Student Leadership Conference by Orlando Bowen when he talked about, and you might have been at that one, I can’t remember, he talked about letting people know there was a different way. So I really want to let teachers know that they do not need to stay in that rut of being burned out and doing everything for their students and doing everything for their classrooms and just putting themselves on the back burner until it’s too late. Because there’s so many amazing things we can do in our classrooms with our students and do them ourselves, and we don’t have to wait until we’re finished teaching, we can live a life alongside our teaching career.

Sam Demma
You mentioned you hit a wall of burnout, and I would imagine there are some educators listening to this right now who may be feeling the same way. How did you navigate that time in your life, and what were some of the things you did to improve or get out of that situation?

Carman Murray
Well, I maybe shouldn’t say this out loud. I left the teaching profession.

Sam Demma
Okay. This is not an advertisement.

Carman Murray
No, this is not an advertisement because I know like there’s so many teachers out there that are so passionate about what they do and they’re so good at it and they have such an impact on students’ lives. And what I would say to teachers that are feeling that they might be on the road to burnout, or just in general exhaustion, because that seems to hit before the burnout happens, is start doing things just for yourself. Hang out with people who are starting to have a different mindset than just students, school, all of the things you have to do. There is this balance which looks not balanced. It’s not this equal balanced scale. It’s like, how do we find the time to do some great things for ourselves and really set school aside?

Carman Murray
And then I feel like the other part of the equation, Sam, is how do we bring some of those things into our classroom? How do we take 10 breaths with our students each time they walk in our classrooms and sit in our desks so that it calms their nervous systems as well as ours? How do we take our students outside for five minutes a couple of times a day that aren’t recess, where they can just have some downtime because we live in such a fast-paced world? And you, I’m sure, have experienced this with all your speaking and everything that you’ve got on the go. How do we actually give the kids permission to slow down rather than trying to speed them up all the time? Because I really feel like we’re pumping out into our world anxious, overwhelmed students who might not have all the tools they need to function. And that comes from our classrooms and their own environment. I don’t want to just say it’s just the classrooms, but how can we combat that as teachers to give them those tools to calm their nervous systems down in the classroom so they can access their prefrontal cortex?

Sam Demma
Why did you take this knowledge and put it into the book? At what point did you say, like I feel this urge to write and to publish? Tell me more about that book and what an accomplishment.

Carman Murray
Well, I was not the kid that dreamed I was gonna write a book since I was 10. I had a thought, I’m like, oh, maybe I should write a book. And then I started hanging out with a few people who had written books. And then I actually, I joined a publisher with a coaching program and just started to write. To be honest, the writing part was the easiest part of it, the marketing part is way harder. You probably know that, may or may not have been your experience. But I really wanted teachers to know that they’re not alone. Because sometimes in our classrooms, we feel like we’re all by ourselves and we’re the only one that has experienced the exhaustion and the overwhelm that’s going on. Then there are things that you can do that don’t require a bunch of extra time. You’re already doing lots of them, you just need to slightly tweak them and tweak your mindset because I always used to feel that I was never doing enough. And that was something that was going on in my mind. Now I’m like this is what I’m doing and it’s great and it is enough. And so as soon as I switched my mindset and it’s really easy to say it’s so much harder to do, I don’t want you to think this is a magic pill, but to start to shift that mind of, I am doing enough, my students are doing well, and this is how I’m helping them rather than feeling like we’re always behind.

Sam Demma
You mentioned the thing you did that helped when you were really burnt out was take a step away. For the educator listening who’s feeling a little bit burnt out and maybe is not having the most positive mindset right now, but knows that like, I’m not, like, I’m not leaving. I don’t want to, I don’t want to leave. What would you advise them to think about or start shifting and changing to rebuild a positive relationship with their workplace?

Carman Murray
That’s such a great question. And there’s a few avenues you can go. So I feel like, so I mentioned this to you when we were talking before we started recording, is I do run a group for teachers and I do coaching on health and wellness as well as classroom dynamics. And so finding yourself a group like that, reaching out to me, is one place to start. Sometimes, though, we need to take time off. Like there needs to be a time away so we can actually fully recover from whatever it is we’re recovering because I feel like there’s so much more than just what goes on in the classroom. We as humans have a life outside. We have all of our own experiences that we’ve collected, and we might be dealing with some of our own trauma and unresolved issues that are being triggered in the classroom. So I feel like if teachers can kind of start to become aware of what’s going on with them, and doing some things like, like where’s your sleep at, would be another question I would ask is, where’s your sleep at and what’s going on in your nervous system? Are you able to respond to things like pause and kind of assess the situation or are you like reacting right out of the gate?

Sam Demma
The group you mentioned, is it for educators or is it open to any stressed and overwhelmed human beings? I know a few people that might not be teachers.

Carman Murray
That is a great question. So it’s open to everybody, actually. I kind of have half and half. I have half educators, and then I’ve got some people who are retired educators, and some people who are not educators at all. Because, like you mentioned, our world causes us a little bit of stress and a little bit of overwhelm. So it’s a place for anybody to land. I do have a particular component of it that is just for teachers, where we meet two or three times a month and we land and we troubleshoot teacher issues and then there’s other components to it where we work on our health and wellness and our mindset and other life challenges that show up.

Sam Demma
Let’s say a teacher is burnt out, they are returning to work after taking a little bit of time off to rebuild that relationship with themselves, improve their sleep. What boundaries do they need to put in place when they start at work again to ensure it doesn’t snowball the way it did the last time?

Carman Murray
Yeah, great. So I would say, so boundaries that teachers can set are, what do they have to offer? Like, what is your time at school? What’s your capacity and who’s your team? That’s another big one. I’m really advocating right now for teachers to use your classroom as a team. You don’t have to do everything. Have your students do their stuff. There are so many things that students can do that teachers just automatically do. And I believe we’re actually taking away life skills from students by doing everything for them.

Sam Demma
And, oh, I had another one.

Sam Demma
That’s a great one, though. I’m thinking about it right now, and I think it’s very similar in parenting. It’s like, let the student, let the young person fall in their hands a few times, let them get involved, let them get their hands dirty because it’s gonna help them build their character as well.

Carman Murray
Absolutely, and it also, like when we talk about boundaries, we also need to look at where are we over giving? Because if we only have, like if we only have 10 units of energy a day and we give away 14 or we use up 14 every day, we leave ourselves at a deficit. So who are the people in your own home that can help you keep things on track, right? It’s like, I had a discussion yesterday with annoyance about my son who left his stuff everywhere and he’s almost 19. And so do I pick it up, like, right? Do I pick it up and just do it myself because that’s easier or do I give him a little bit of flack and go, okay, buddy, deal with your stuff because he’s old enough to, and all of those things. So boundaries, boundaries are huge. And I think even those of us who aren’t teachers or those of you that are listening that aren’t teachers can also struggle with boundaries. What are you saying yes to? What are you saying no to? And I think more importantly, what are you saying yes to that you don’t really want to?

Sam Demma
It’s almost thinking like an entrepreneur and delegating the things in your life that are not bringing you joy happiness and fulfillment but still need to get done. What are some of the things that you think are top of the list hanging fruits that an educator or a teacher may think about letting go control over and delegating to a student or a colleague or another team member that might lighten the load a little bit?

Carman Murray
So back to having the kids involved. Yeah. Students, right? If you’re in a room full of 30 bodies, one of them is going to think that writing on the whiteboard is the best thing ever. And the other one doesn’t want to touch anything to do with it. Right? One of them is going to be super excited about organizing the bookshelves, the other one’s not going to touch it with a 10-foot pole. So I would say really talk to your people, like talk to your students. What is it that they want to do? How do they want to help? And I even believe that with like project planning. When I taught, I loved planning projects with my kids. In fact, one of the times we planned a project with my parents, one was a pilot for a private jet company, and we got to go to the hangar and sit in. Oh my. Right? There’s so many resources out there that are available. So how can we tap into that team and delegate to our students based on their interests as well as teaching them that there’s some things that you don’t really want to do that you still have to do in life, right? Somebody needs to empty the garbage. And then the piece of delegation, I also think that often schools are wanting teachers to do more, especially I live in rural Alberta and so there’s not a lot of teachers in my kids’ school, so there’s only enough teachers to go so far. So where are you accessing community involvement? And when teachers say no to things so they’re not over capacity enough times, then they have to start looking somewhere else. And if teachers are always saying yes and they don’t have the space or capacity to do it, then they’re like, oh, we’ve got the expertise in their building, right? Sam said he would do that. Sam said he would do this. Sam said he would run the lunch club and the library club and the game club when Sam really doesn’t have time to do all that. So where can they find other resources? And most places have resources in their cages.

Sam Demma
That’s such a great idea. I’m even thinking, what if at the start of a fresh semester or a new group of students, you wrote down on the whiteboard all of the things that have to be done in the classroom that are repeatable tasks that are typically done by the teacher themselves, which could be given as a responsibility and a growth opportunity to one student each in the classroom. And it’s like an auction, you go down the list and it’s like an honor to do the tasks. And people bid on it with their excitement. And maybe a few of them are assigned because no one may want certain tasks, but I think, I think there’s something there, like auctioning off, auctioning off classroom tasks to your students.

Carman Murray
Well, and I love that, because I love the auction part of it and I’m going to take it one step back, is brainstorm that list with your students. Yeah. Those things that they’re going to think of that you don’t think of.

Sam Demma
I love that, that’s such a powerful idea. What do you think are some of the, I’m going to shift gears for a moment, in regard to building relationships with students, we talked a little bit about classroom management, but what do you think are some of the best practices to build stronger relationships with young people as a teacher?

Carman Murray
That’s a really great question, because when you look at classes that have 46 kids in them, that’s a lot of kids, and you probably have four classes like that. For me, and this is my disclaimer, I’ve always taught in rural schools and I went to a rural school, is like when I taught, I knew all 325 kids in the building because we were a K-12 school. But there’s components of what are those kids good at? What conversations can you have with them that aren’t just about their assignments and what’s late or what’s not late? And what good questions do you ask them? It’s just like, how’s your day? What’s their response? And then is there more to read into that response? And I also feel like there’s opportunities within your classroom to find that information out. I volunteer with the Rocky View Leadership Academy and work with leadership kids and they’re phenomenal. And I love the experience. And we’ll often, we usually start in a circle with 30 to 60 kids and do a one word check-in. And so each kid goes around, they’re like exhausted, excited, tired, overwhelmed, you know, all the things that they come up with take less than three minutes. And it gives me as a volunteer, as well as the lady who runs, the idea of where the kids are all at, and it gives the people around them an idea of where they’re at. I also feel like you can give assignments that give students the opportunity to express where they’re really at. And real conversations. I loved doing assessment with students. I know it takes a little bit longer, but it really allows me, per se, in their head as to, you know, if I was going to give you a, this is a bit of an old scale, but if I was to give you a mark out of 10, what would you choose that mark to be? And they might choose like a six out of 10. And you’re looking at it going, I think maybe that’s more like an eight out of 10. It’s like, okay, why would you give it a six? And then they kind of unpack what goes on in their brain about their own learning and why they did certain things. So it gives you an idea. So those are some of the things that I’ve done and I would do in a class to support kids in getting them to know each other. Getting to know them as a teacher, but also getting them to know each other. Because I think that in a class of 46, you want your students to have more touch points than just you.

Sam Demma
On that idea of getting to know each other, phenomenal ideas around building relationships with the students. How do you think that you build relationships with your colleagues as an educator and a teacher as well? I find that sometimes classrooms can become these little silos in a bigger school building, where people aren’t collaborating as much as they could benefit from doing so. How did you build those relationships and leverage other educators when you were also a teacher?

Carman Murray
So we used to have a meeting once a week with, there was, I taught grade six and there was a grade five teacher and a grade four teacher. And we would meet the three of us once a week at lunchtime. And lots of times it was on the fly, and sometimes somebody couldn’t make it, or somebody showed up 10 minutes later or whatever. And we sat in a different room and just kind of like we had a bit of an agenda, different conversations we were having about what was maybe working, what wasn’t working, what projects are we working, how can we support each other, so that we know we’re not alone in that building, and we can rely on each other for two-minute conversations or 20-minute lunches so that you can get to know each other is one of the ways. And the other thing that I also did, and sometimes I got funny looks for it, is we know that sometimes a staff room is a place that can be challenging to be in, because sometimes it’s a negative zone or whatever it is. And I would sit at a table where people were having a conversation about other students or not staff members, but often students, and it would be like, I’d sit down and be like, oh, what was something you did that was cool today? And bringing the focus back to that actual person rather than them talking about students, because we know what happens. We know there is a need for a place to vent about them, but it’s just like, how do we use that staff room to build relationships with other staff. And I got odd looks all the time, and I’m okay with that. But I also am not okay to sit in a staff room where there’s a table that’s loud that’s talking about students, and not necessarily in a great way.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I also feel that it’s so important that you put a little bit of a protection around your energy, not only as an educator, but in any field, and recognizing that if those types of conversations make you feel less than and make you feel burnt out, then there’s no need to participate in them, right?

Carman Murray
I think there’s, yes, the part of don’t participate in them, but then I feel like for me, anyways, there’s a responsibility. Shut it down. Yeah, so it’s like, let’s talk about something else. Or what’s something cool that kid has going on? Or like just to start to redirect the conversation, which is so powerful because kids struggle enough. We don’t, right? We all, and I don’t say we all struggle enough. It’s helpful not to be talking about other people. And I think if you’re listening to this and you are like, oh, I’m that person, just start different conversations.

Sam Demma
I’m sure there’s multiple people listening to this right now thinking, this Carman Murray lady is speaking my language and I want to read her book and I want to hear more about her group. So can you tell us how people can connect with you, get in touch about the group, and check out the book as well?

Carman Murray
Yeah, absolutely. So my book is called Teachers First, a guide to avoiding and overcoming burnout in the classroom. It’s available on Amazon and it’s also available in Chapters. And my website is www.healthyteachers.ca. And my group, if you’re interested in my group or even having a conversation with me, there’s a chat with me button on my website. Just click on that and book a time and we can chat and see where you’re at and see if I can help you or support you or if we’re a fit. Because sometimes we’re not and sometimes we are. Absolutely no pressure in having a conversation and just getting connected. I also am on Instagram.

Sam Demma
Nice.

Carman Murray
And Facebook and LinkedIn.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for investing the time to share some of your insights on the show. I hope you continue to spread this message as far and wide as you possibly can. Keep up the great work and we’ll talk again soon.

Carman Murray
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Sam, and you as well. You’re doing amazing things in this world and creating a great ripple effect.

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The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

October 17, 2024 by Educator Mental Health Professor Teachers Uncategorized 0

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