January 2025

Andrea Michelutti – Principal at Laurelwood Public School

About Andrea Michelutti

Andrea Michelutti is an experienced administrator with the Waterloo Region District School Board, where she has served communities since 2008. Over the years, she has worked in a variety of schools, gaining extensive experience and insight into the diverse needs of students, staff, and school communities. Andrea believes her role as an administrator is to “Uplift, Uphold, and Support” every person she serves. Guided by this philosophy, she fosters an inclusive and empowering environment where individuals are encouraged to thrive. Andrea is deeply committed to leveraging the strengths of her staff, enabling them to be their best selves while delivering excellence in education and care. With a passion for student success, Andrea inspires young people to reach and exceed their hopes, dreams, and goals. Her dedication to nurturing growth, resilience, and achievement has made her a respected leader and a source of inspiration for students, colleagues, and the broader school community alike.

Connect with Andrea Michelutti: Email | Linkedin | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Waterloo Region District School Board
Laurelwood Public School

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today I am very excited. We have a special guest who is full of full of energy, Andrea McAloody from Laurelwood in Waterloo. I’m so excited to have you on the show to talk about all the amazing things going on at the school. Thank you so much for for coming on.

Andrea Michelutti
I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Sam.

Andrea Michelutti
I appreciate you coming to our school last year, and our students still talk about you. They talk about your red backpack. They talk about always being positive and thinking about what we can do better. So, thank you for this opportunity.

Sam Demma
Since I’ve been at the school, I hear there’s a 10-classroom addition that’s been built and that students are taking the initiative to make it a very hospitable experience, a new, beautiful space where every student feels welcome. Tell us a little bit about what’s going on in the school right now.

Andrea Michelutti
So we are very fortunate. We received ministry funding for a 10 classroom addition because our population keeps increasing. We’re over 700 students. And when it opened this year, we opened to fanfare. The architects really worked hard

Andrea Michelutti
so we have the consistent building, the consistent paint colors, the consistent floor. But what we noticed was that our students took a lot of pride in our building. Our students really focused on what’s on the walls, how are they seen, and what are those really great things that they can do.

Andrea Michelutti
They talked about having, you know, a class meeting and how the third environment is what is needed to make sure they feel successful.

Sam Demma
In addition to the addition on the school, tell me a little bit more about how this year has been so far.

Andrea Michelutti
This year has been absolutely incredible. We started this year with more students than we’ve ever expected, and our students have really been working on this idea of hospitality. It came from my conversations with some students in grade eight, and we focused on those opportunities

Andrea Michelutti
of what they can do every day to make others feel welcomed and accepted. So I always say to my students there’s three things that I need to do. I need to support all of our students. I need to uplift all of our students. And I need to uphold or uphold the high expectations, support all of our students, and uplift. So when we talk about uplifting, we’re talking about like greeting our students,

Andrea Michelutti
making a welcome environment. And I had a group of grade eight students come and say, we need to make sure all of our new students to Laurelwood also feel the same way.

Sam Demma
And was this a student-driven idea? Like they approached you and said, hey, we have to do this, or how did it all come about?

Andrea Michelutti
So when I first came to the school, I went to visit every class and I talked about uplift, uphold, support. And when I first arrived, there’d be days where I’d walk the halls. I was new, where students wouldn’t say hello to me. And I said, I expect you to say good morning to say hello. And at first I thought, oh, this is going to be a little silly. Nobody’s going to buy in. And they bought in. And so we’ve been doing that for about a year and a half. And this September,

Andrea Michelutti
our students came to me, a group of boys came and said, we need to make sure our new grade sevens and our new students also understand the importance of greeting each other. I also had some form where students come back and say they’re at new schools now and they don’t feel the same way. And they’ve also approached their teachers and principals to say, how come you don’t greet us at the door? What can you do different? So it’s that slow momentum. But listening to student voice, especially our grade eight students,

Andrea Michelutti
wanting that environment shows that we’re on the right track.

Sam Demma
It sounds like you’ve built quite the culture and community at the school. How do you build this culture of belonging in a school building?

Andrea Michelutti
That’s one of those tricky pieces. So a few schools back, we really focused on that idea of how do all students feel welcome? And so what we did at one of my staff meetings was I had all my teachers go around and take pictures of what the environment looked like

Andrea Michelutti
and how it created a welcoming environment. And so we put a slide show together, I thought it was great. But then we went to the next level and we had all of our students go around and do the same activity to see the adults in the building

Andrea Michelutti
seeing the same things the students are seeing in the building. And we realized there was some things that were the same, but the students really focused on relationships with teachers. They wanted to take pictures of adults

Andrea Michelutti
that they felt that they were safe with and that they can care that that felt cared about And that was most interesting So knowing that I did stumble with my few decisions before because we weren’t too sure where we were going When I came to the school, I really focused on that student voice and those relationships Why I think we’ve been very successful is because we’re talking openly about it and I’ll take student feedback, even the feedback that’s really hard, I listen to them and see what I can do to improve.

Sam Demma
One of the other programs I’ve heard the school has put a major focus on improving is with special education and the mental health of students. Can you tell me a little bit about that this year also?

Andrea Michelutti
So, being a former special education teacher and a former student where I was in a special education program. I know that many of our students always felt a little awkward because learning was hard for them. They had to learn differently. So with my special education team,

Andrea Michelutti
we really talked about what we can do differently to really target our students in kindergarten, grade one, and grade two to fill in those gaps. And we noticed that our students were feeling more successful.

Andrea Michelutti
We focused on their assets and how can they use their assets to improve their areas where they needed a little more improvement. So I’m thinking about a student in the primary grades. Reading is really difficult for her. And what we really focused on was her ability

Andrea Michelutti
to be an amazing dancer and amazing presenter. So we talked about those really strong strengths, and then we moved it into her reading, and she’s already made huge improvements in reading where now she comes to school every day. So by focusing on making students feel good

Andrea Michelutti
about themselves, really connecting on their strengths, one of the side effects, or one of the outcomes, is better attendance at school. We also changed our educational assisted model from being somebody who just jumps in to support kids, to being joy builders.

Andrea Michelutti
So when EAs come in, they are the ones who are there to bring joy to the classroom. So before, some kids would be like, oh, there’s an EA in the classroom. I hope they don’t take me to work with them. We now, our kids all want to work with the EAs because, again, they’re focusing on students’ strengths. And how can we just get that 1% better every day?

Sam Demma
It strikes me that you’re someone who’s been so passionate about education and serving young people and creating welcoming communities. Did you know when you were a student growing up that you wanted to work in education or what did this pathway look like for you?

Andrea Michelutti
When I was younger, I always wanted to be a teacher, but I also wanted to work in business and I wanted to have those, you know, two jobs combined and I never knew what I wanted to do. In high school and in university, I had a chance to work with two Ontario Hockey League teams. I worked with the Sudbury Wolves and the Peterborough Peets. And those were those opportunities that taught me that skills of hospitality, relationships and team building.

Andrea Michelutti
And then I was able to tie that into my passion for always being a teacher. When I became an administrator, it kind of fell in my lap. I was very new to education. I believe I was about seven years in, and unfortunately my vice, the vice principal at the school got sick,

Andrea Michelutti
and at that time there wasn’t many people interested in going into leadership. So my principal tapped me on the shoulder and said, would you be interested in doing this role for about two weeks? That’s it, two weeks.

Andrea Michelutti
Now I’m at 17 years, which is incredible.

Sam Demma
What has been foundational in your professional development as you’ve worked in schools for over 20 years? Have you had mentors or resources that have been helpful?

Sam Demma
And if so, who are those people

Sam Demma
and what did they do for you and what are some of those resources?

Andrea Michelutti
So every time, like once I started in education, I really looked to different mentors. One of my biggest mentors was Charlie Smith. He was my first principal in Markham. And he was an athlete. He was always in the school,

Andrea Michelutti
and what I learned from him was being visible in the building and building those really strong connections at the same time as having that academic excellence. Under his leadership at his school, our EQAO scores for grade three were very, very low. We were at the bottom of the school board, and within three years, we were fourth in the school board.

Andrea Michelutti
And what I learned from him was good teaching, good relationships, resulted in great outcomes. Another one of my great mentors was a principal named Kristen Phillips, and she really taught everyone the importance of being kind, being present, but really pushing student achievement. It was a school where our academic scores were very low. And again, under her leadership,

Andrea Michelutti
we really targeted small group instruction, finding student strengths and moving on. But my biggest mentor ever was the general manager of the Peterborough Peaks from 95 to 99. He was there much before me and much longer after me, but his name was Jeff Tuey. And I just saw how he always treated everybody with kindness

Andrea Michelutti
and respect. It didn’t matter if you were, you know, just a fan coming to the game or if you were a general manager from an NHL team. The way he treated people was with kindness, knew their names, knew things about them, knew their family, knew their passions, and just sitting there, being in my early 20s, seeing that interaction, I’ve tried to really carry that on.

Sam Demma
Do these individuals know the contribution they’ve made to your professional development and personal life? I think they do.

Andrea Michelutti
I’m still in contact with Jeff Tuey. It was funny, because last year, he was up in Sudbury at a hockey game. I no longer live in Sudbury, and he ran into my family. And we exchanged pictures and our cell phone numbers, and I always reach out to him.

Andrea Michelutti
He’s one of those people where I just thought he is able to make things work. And so that’s been really great connecting. And Charlie Smith and Kristen Phillips, we do every once in a while keep in contact over Facebook. They’re both long retired.

Andrea Michelutti
Those are the people who really made my life in a different trajectory.

Sam Demma
With education and any heart-centered vocation, you’re always pouring into others, your staff members, the students in the building, the families you serve, that sometimes we forget to pour into ourselves. When you’re not in the school building or thinking about work, which is probably never.

Sam Demma
But when you have your time to pour into your own cup, how do you do that? What are some of the activities that fill you back up so you can be your whole self at work?

Andrea Michelutti
I’m really fortunate. I have a great family who’s always around me. And whenever I want to do something silly or crazy, they always embrace it. And it could be something like, you know, we wake up early in the morning.

Sam Demma
It’s important to do.

Andrea Michelutti
But it’s those little small connections with friends, with family, and sometimes in our jobs it’s really busy, but I always make sure that I carve out time for family every day.

Sam Demma
That’s so important. Do you come from a family of educators?

Sam Demma
My family went to university.

Andrea Michelutti
So my family had businesses up in Sudbury and I learned the the value of hard work and how when things are going well, they’re going really well. But during economic slowdowns things are really tough. And so what my parents always taught me was to be very appreciative of what you had and make sure that people always feel valued and welcomed in your life.

Sam Demma
Oh, amazing. You said that you’ve been an administrator for I believe now 17 years? That’s correct. What would you say is the big difference between working in the classroom

Sam Demma
and working as an administrator?

Andrea Michelutti
The biggest difference is the impact you make. So in the classroom you work with 20 to 30 students every day, but in a school I’m serving 700 students and supporting 70 staff members and families. So just seeing how the growth from students from grade 1 to grade to grade 8 and seeing the the gain staff makes is very different from being in the classroom to being in a leadership role.

Andrea Michelutti
I do have a lot of opportunities to teach. So if I’m having a tough day, sometimes I’ll go to a classroom and be like, give me a small group, or let me take a group of students. And so this year, my staff has been really working on how to improve their literacy skills, their math skills, and special education. We’re doing everything this year.

Andrea Michelutti
And so when we do have guest speakers, I’ll often say, I’ll take all the students to the library, do a little teaching so the students can work together. But the biggest impact is who we’re serving.

Sam Demma
If you were to think back to your first year

Sam Demma
as an administrator, I’m sure there’s still unique challenges that you’re solving now, but that first year must have been, in some ways, a learning experience. What are some of the advice you would give based on your own past experiences to

Sam Demma
other teachers who might be becoming administrators as they’re listening to this podcast. The one there’s two

Andrea Michelutti
pieces of advice. One is always be kind to others and two is always be kind to yourself. So my first year, I was very aware of all the mistakes I was making and then when I talk to those teachers or those principals, they never notice my mistakes. So I’ve really adopted the model of, if I have a really tough day and I’ve made a bad decision,

Andrea Michelutti
I’ll say, wow, that principal made a really bad decision, but Andrew McAloody is still a really good person. And so I think it’s really focusing on being, forgive yourself when you make those difficult decisions. And I always say, there was never a bad decision, it might just have been bad communication,

Andrea Michelutti
and what can you do differently?

Sam Demma
We’re getting very close to the new year. And when folks listen to this, it might be January or into February. What are you excited about moving into 2025? What I’m most excited about is seeing where our students grow. There are some students that have

Andrea Michelutti
made some significant gains in their literacy and math skills. And they’re just at the point of it’s all coming together, so they’re going to soar. I’m also really excited about thinking about how we can engage our families in different ways. I’m very hopeful for 2025, and I know it’s going to be a great year. I always say this year is the best year, but it turns out next year is the best year, and

Andrea Michelutti
the next year is the best year. And so that’s the great part about being in education is every year it keeps getting better and better. So one of my hopes for 2025 is just to make sure everybody feels a sense of belonging, a sense of happiness, and a sense of welcoming.

Sam Demma
Awesome, Andrea, thank you so much for taking time out of the busy schedule to share some of your ideas on the podcast. I appreciate it. I wish you nothing but the most amount of success and happiness into the new year

Sam Demma
with the school, both professionally and in your personal life, and I hope to stay connected. If somebody is listening to this and wants to share a note of gratitude or reach out, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Andrea Michelutti
Send me an email or reach out to me on X. It’s always important to have those connections. And just briefly, I had a student come back to me. I only worked with him for three months in 2016, and I said to him, I expect you to graduate. And he was a student who really doubted his abilities, but I saw something in him. And when he came back four years later, he just surprised me at the school with his

Andrea Michelutti
high school diploma, we’ve taken a picture, and it’s one of those moments I just will always cherish. Because he said, you believed in me, and I had to make sure I kept up to your high expectations. So I love when students come back, when families reach out, because it really makes those connections just that little stronger.

Sam Demma
I love that. Is the picture posted on your social media by any chance?

Andrea Michelutti
It is. I’ll send it to you. It’s one of those great things. And he actually did a video about our relationship. So that was one of those most important pieces, something I cherish.

Sam Demma
Oh, amazing. And what would your ex account profile be if someone did want to touch base?

Andrea Michelutti
It’s at Mickeludi A. So my last name followed by my first initial. So M-I-C-H-E-L-U-T-T-I-A.

Sam Demma
Andrea, thank you so much. This is a big pleasure.

Andrea Michelutti
Thank you so much, Sam, and keep doing the great work you’re doing. and keep doing the great work you’re doing. You’re changing the lives of many people.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Andrea Michelutti

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education. By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators. You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

Paul Turner — Language and Literature Teacher at Upper Canada College

About Paul Turner

Paul Turner is a passionate Language and Literature high school teacher at Upper Canada College in Toronto, Ontario. Paul has been teaching for twenty-eight years (twenty-five in public education with the last three at the college). Educated at McMaster University with a B.A in English and a B.A. in sociology, he later completed Teachers’ College at Jordanhill College, Strathclyde University, in Scotland, where he received teaching awards in both English and Individual In Society. Paul also has a Specialist in Guidance Education.

Recently, Paul has elected to work exclusively with Year 8 and 9 students to give them solid foundational skills for their high school and post-secondary educational journeys to come.

Paul’s passion for travel is demonstrated with regular trips with students, most recently a food and culture trip to Mexico City and Oaxaca, Mexico. In March, he will accompany students to Costa Rica on a community service trip where students will volunteer with environmental projects in local communities. Ten years ago, Paul and his wife Jennifer (also a Language and Literature teacher) took their two children Elizabeth and Jack on a 315-day trip around the world.

When not enjoying his phenomenal family and teaching career, Paul loves the time he is able to spend up at their cottage on a lake just outside of Algonquin Park.

Paul is committed to many whole-school, extra-curricular, and sports activities, in order to help students enjoy their entire secondary school experience. Although he is able to retire from teaching this year, he is not interested in doing so; “there’s just too much to accomplish with the kids I teach and my own personal growth as an educator!”

Connect with Paul Turner: Email

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Upper Canada College
McMaster University

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Paul Turner. Paul and I connected, I want to say about a year and a half ago, or maybe more like a year ago. What I didn’t know about Paul, and we’ll uncover a lot about his work in education.

Sam Demma
What I didn’t know about Paul is that some people take trips, but Paul took a 315 day trip with his family a decade ago around the globe. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, Paul, and what that trip was, and then we’ll bridge the gap to what you’re doing in education right now?

Paul Turner
Absolutely, and thanks for having me, Sam. It’s an honor, for sure. So my wife is also an educator. She’s an English teacher, and so she’s the big idea person in our family, and one day she said to me,

Paul Turner
we need to take a teacher-funded leave. And that’s going to take place over a six-year period. We’re going to put into it until we can take one full year off. And in doing so, we pulled our kids out of school and we started an Odyssey that took us to around 26 or 27 countries and 300, yeah, as I think you said, 315 days straight, and we did, in fact, go all the way around the globe.

Paul Turner
And it was spectacular. It was probably the best learning experience of our lives, 100%.

Sam Demma
Why? Like, what was the passion behind that idea?

Paul Turner
So our school board, and lots of school boards do this, they actually encourage people to involve themselves in a teacher funded leave. And there’s a bunch of benefits. Obviously the most clear benefit is that when you allow your teachers to go out and immerse themselves in the world,

Paul Turner
you come back as a much more powerful educator, for sure, being able to have witnessed and immersed yourself in so many different cultures and experiences. So, you know, the school board encourages it. I think that there’s a benefit to the school board as well

Paul Turner
because usually you’ve got to be a long-on-the-tooth educator and they get paid more than the young ones. So they can get two teachers for one salary. But I think that ultimately the justification is that, you know, that you come back a better educator and a better person for it.

Sam Demma
It’s obvious education is at the heart of what you do. You are in a position now where you could retire but choose not to. Can you tell me about what got you passionate about education years ago and what keeps you passionate about it now?

Sam Demma
That’s, you know, I think that,

Paul Turner
I worked in public education for 27 years, and not to run anything down, but that’s a slog. It was, for the first 15, it was amazing. And then I just started to find that the education system in Ontario has been, consistently by different governments, has just been emptied. And so anybody who knows an educator

Paul Turner
in the public school board system knows that they’re tired, that they are, that they’re under-resourced, and the expectations are greater than ever. With that being said, still a wonderful job, and I have so many friends who are in the public education system.

Paul Turner
My wife continues to be. But I got an opportunity to come to a wonderful school in Toronto called the Upper Canada College and I think that I was probably on the verge of thinking about retiring after a fairly long career. And when I got here, I recognized the value of, it’s important to remember, I’m a huge supporter of public education, so it’s almost a small irony that I work in a private education field.

Paul Turner
But at the same time, it’s rejuvenated my career. I just absolutely love what I do now, and so I have committed to a couple more years at least to stay in the education system and just keep going.

Sam Demma
Did you know when you were a student yourself that you wanted to work in schools or how did you find this vocation?

Paul Turner
So actually no, I had really, I went to see my guidance counsellor and she basically said, you know, what do you want to do? My family was very involved in law enforcement and so I said, you know, I think that I’d probably like to be a police officer or a teacher. And so after I graduated from high school, I started going to college for law and security. I was immediately hired by a police force and became a police officer for a few years. And I recognized very soon that simply having a high school diploma,

Paul Turner
a little bit of college, of course the police force will pay for you to be educated on a part-time basis, but it would have taken me 10 years to get a university degree. And so I took the leap to quit and with the intent of going to university, getting a degree and then returning. But the further and further away I got away from policing and the more leadership opportunities I had in university taught me that I wanted to be an educator. in a community education teaching role. And then ultimately went to Teachers College

Paul Turner
and never looked back. It sounds like your time at UCC was so special. It revitalized your passion for education.

Sam Demma
What is it about UCC in comparison to other places you worked in the past that brought that passion back out of you? So I think it’s a very holistic approach passion back out of you?

Paul Turner
So I think it’s a very holistic approach that they have here as a staff, as a team. I’ve never felt more… The administration of the school is there to help me, whereas, you know, oftentimes in education, it can be adversarial with the administration because they’ve got their mandates. You know, the quintessential response that I have for my friends or anybody else who asks me is that every day I come to

Paul Turner
work in one way, shape, or form, I’m thanked for the work that I do, parent, student, administrative, other colleagues. Somebody thanks me in one way or another. And when that happens, it just makes you feel like, okay, I’m doing something that’s important

Paul Turner
and people are recognizing that. And it’s not about me, it’s more about the ethos and understanding of this culture of appreciation. The boys that we teach here are, I won’t lie, they’re very, many of them are very wealthy, but you don’t know that.

Paul Turner
It doesn’t feel like that. They’re here to learn, and they love the learning that they’re doing, and so when I can facilitate that, or help facilitate that, it’s very encouraging. It’s very, it makes you feel great. And walking onto this campus in downtown Toronto,

Paul Turner
30 acres, with the storied history of this building, we’re coming up on our 200th anniversary, obviously. That’s a big deal. 2029, yeah. So, you know, when I walk onto the campus, I feel like a $100 bill.

Paul Turner
It just feels great to be on here. The energy and the enthusiasm is amazing. So, yeah, that’s why I’m gonna stay.

Sam Demma
So you didn’t know at first

Sam Demma
that education was the vocation for you, and then you found that passion through leadership experiences in university, found yourself in public education, transitioned to UCC. Throughout that journey, have you had mentors that have been very instrumental in your personal professional development, or resources that were very helpful? And if so, what were those resources and who are those individuals and what do they do for you?

Paul Turner
I have to say that the biggest resource that’s available to an educator is the human resource of other educators. And so, yeah, I’ve had no one specific mentor, just one after the other after the other of impressive colleagues that are so passionate, so brilliant, so intense about the things that they do. And so, when you get into a, like anywhere, you have people who fill your backpack and people who empty your backpack, right?

Paul Turner
So, I think that in any environment, you have those two kind of different people. What I’ve typically done lately, well, for most of my careers, is align myself with people who are really smart, who are really passionate, who really were interested in developing positive educational relationships with kids and learn from them and just draw down on that. Alternatively, though, I find that I learn a great deal from the kids.

Paul Turner
The kids, they drive you, they want to succeed. And so I take a lot of my cues about how I learn from the kids themselves, because sometimes they ask me questions I don’t know the answer to. I go, okay, well, let’s go find that out.

Paul Turner
Let’s figure this out together. Yeah, so I think that, you know, and I’ve met, as I said, the human resources are the most important part. The people that I’ve met in my journey in education have been phenomenal and so varied in their experience and their approaches. And you just try and pick out the best of everybody and then make it your own and try and figure out a way to ball all of that up so that you can get it out to the kids and create opportunities for their success.

Sam Demma
Were you always someone who did things extracurricularly in schools? Did you have to find your footing for a while before you dove in? I know that today you do a lot outside of the classroom as well.

Paul Turner
So, schools take, not take advantage, but they recognize young people who are hungry, who want to secure their position in a way that will be creating some degree of longevity. So they tap you pretty early to say, what can you do for us, right? And so I think that in my early career, I was, along with a group of peers, we were kind of the go-to people.

Paul Turner
I used to have a vice principal who said that the reward for good work is the expectation for more good work. And so, you know, in a building, you see that there are lots of people who take a leadership role

Paul Turner
in terms of the extracurriculars. And you typically find that about half the staff is controlling about 90% of the extracurricular activities and coaching and things like that. I was for a very long time very engaged, did everything, anything anybody asked me to. When I had my own kids, I pulled back a little bit. I justified that in my mind that, you know, I’ve been looking after other people’s

Paul Turner
kids for a long time. Now I have my own children and I’m going to pour as much as I can into them. As my children have grown up, and they are pretty almost there, I’ve been able to get involved in a lot of things. And so the involvement that I’ve had at Upper Canada College has been spectacular for me, as well as providing, you know, I enjoy providing my time and the efforts But I’m growing as a person because of my involvement in those extracurricular activities as well

Sam Demma
When you think about all the experiences you’ve had in education This must be a very difficult question to answer that I’m about to ask you are there any experiences that stick out on your mind as things that brought you so much joy and fulfillment or moments that you are incredibly proud of being a part of throughout your educational journey?

Paul Turner
You know, there’s a lot of times where teachers feel beat up or, you know, sometimes, you know, you’ll have a bad day, you’ll have a run in with a kid or a parent will, you know, take in a task on something rightfully or wrongfully. And those days are difficult. And one colleague that I met very early on in my career

Paul Turner
gave me a piece of advice. And what he said was, every time you get a card from a kid, every time you get a note from a parent or a child or a supervisor that’s positive in nature, read it, put it in a box. And essentially what they indicated was that on those bad days where you think that, you know,

Paul Turner
am I in the right career? Did I do something wrong? And you’re feeling bad about something. You go to that box and you look through and you see, you see that those things outweigh the negatives by a long shot.

Paul Turner
And you see the positive impacts that you have on kids. And because to get to receive a letter or a note from a kid is very special because they generally, you know, I found that generally they don’t do that unless they’re really motivated to. And so as a consequence, you know, those are things that come from the heart. And yeah, so I mean, the other thing that I’m really proud of, and I try and instill this in new teachers as well, is that I did something that was, quite frankly, I still think about it, and it amazes me, is that my mother passed away many years ago. And we were having a coffee one day, talking about, probably about something that I was doing at school.

Paul Turner
And she said, you know, that must be amazing. You know, and I said, well, yeah, I have an amazing job. And so I said, would you like to come to my school and watch me teach for a day? And she said, I could do that. And I said, absolutely. So, arranged it and she came in, had a lesson planned for her so she could follow along.

Paul Turner
And we taught my class and she saw how I interacted with the kids and took her out for lunch and, you know, introduced her around to the building. And of course, her experience at school is vastly different than what goes on in the school in recent memory. And so, you know, when she was ill before she passed away, she told me that that was probably one of the best days of her life.

Paul Turner
And that’s something. Yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, this job has provided me with so much joy and so much good karma, I think. Definitely bumps along the road, but generally speaking,

Paul Turner
something that I’m gonna look back on fondly.

Sam Demma
You can feel your heart through the screen, through the podcast. I actually lost my grandfather when I was 13 and we share the same name. And he only ever knew Sam, and Sam, the guy who played sports,

Sam Demma
and Sam, the soccer player, and he never got to meet in person. Sam, the author and speaker and all the other things, and I wish I could have had him, you know, in my corner at this stage of my life to have conversations with,

Sam Demma
and I think that’s such a beautiful opportunity, and I hope that other educators that are listening that still have their parents around, if their parents are able to and interested in joining them for a day of work, bring your parents to work day. It should be a new thing.

Sam Demma
I think that that idea is worth this conversation and goal, and I appreciate you sharing that experience. Yeah, that’s amazing. When you did that, did other teachers in the building, if you can remember, did they say like, oh my goodness, this is a great idea,

Sam Demma
I should bring my parents, or was it just like a-

Paul Turner
Absolutely, and I have motivated a few people to do that in the various locations, and I take student teachers every once in a while, I’ve got one coming in in February, and it’s something that I always relate to them, that there’s so much magic in that, you know, our parents

Paul Turner
fill us up with with so much and they really Rarely ask for anything in return and to be able to give them an example of well to give my mother An understanding of the success that she created Was it was you know something that I felt was really important for me as a person, but also I wanted to show her just how much I appreciated that she got me there to a place where I was very happy and successful. So yeah, it was magic for

Sam Demma
sure. You are involved now in lots of extracurricular activities. You know, you’re teaching full-time in the school, you’re raising the kids. When you’re not pouring into others. How do you feel, how does Paul fill his own cup?

Sam Demma
Yeah, so we’ve got

Paul Turner
good friends that we spend time with and we have, we’re very very fortunate to have a property up north on a lake and so we get up there as often as we can, we can use it in the winter and so you know, I mean there’s a bunch of things that I like to do. I have to admit sometimes I can be a bit of a couch potato and watch some really good series on Netflix or what have you. I listen to podcasts. I really enjoy spending time with my family.

Paul Turner
And so that time takes different forms because my son still lives at home, home but my daughter is at university and she plays varsity volleyball for university and so we try to get to as many games as we can throughout the province and yeah so and like you we’re just gearing up for the holidays and our very small family will get together at the cottage for the whole time and it’s going to be terrific. So I like to, yeah, my wife and I go for walks

Paul Turner
up north. Sometimes I sit on the deck and watch hummingbirds as they go by. So yeah, so I really enjoy being in nature and so as a consequence that’s where, you know, we spend our whole summer up at our cottage and so that’s really a great place to recharge and get things done. I love, just as a side note, I love, people think it’s weird, but I love to chop wood and I kind of try to figure out why that is. I finally figured it out is that, you know, in education, the process sometimes is slow, right? Your engagement with a kid, you see them for only an hour a day and then over a period of time and you don’t even know if you’re having any impact. Sometimes you do,

Paul Turner
sometimes you don’t. More times than not, you don’t even know if you have any, had any impact. More like water on a stone. And so, you know, I found that the act of chopping up a tree, cutting it into blocks, and then splitting it, stacking it, and drying it, and then being able to use it down the road to warm the house that my family lives in. It’s very tangible, kind of beginning, middle, end, done,

Paul Turner
where I don’t get that necessarily. Most of us don’t, in our jobs, get that beginning and finish. So I find it very relaxing and it’s good exercise.

Sam Demma
I don’t think it’s weird at all. I love it. And Rocky Balboa does too. We didn’t get a chance to talk about your international trips with students, the service learning that you’ve done with students. When you mentioned Hummingbird, I thought of a bird that I saw in Costa Rica for a conference I was in a few weeks ago,

Sam Demma
and I know you’ve brought students there as well. It sounds like you get thanked a lot at UCC by your colleagues, by parents, and also the students, but I wanted to thank you personally as well for the work that you’re doing in education, choosing to maintain in this beautiful vocation.

Sam Demma
There’s a lot of young teachers that are listening to this right now, and you’ve just put a beautiful spotlight on what’s possible. And I hope that other people listening reach out to you if they have questions or to thank you as well. And if they do, what would be the best way

Sam Demma
for them to get in touch or share a note of gratitude?

Paul Turner
Well, because I’m an old school guy and old, old, old, I-

Sam Demma
He chops wood guys, he chops wood.

Paul Turner
I don’t have any socials, but if somebody had the inclination to reach out to me, they can do so at my email address, which is pturner@ucc.on.ca.

Sam Demma
Oh, thank you so much. Keep up the amazing work and enjoy the the time of North with the family.

Paul Turner
Thank you so much for having me Sam. It’s been a great Thank you so much for having me Sam. It’s been a great experience.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Paul Turner

January 23, 2025 by Sam Demma Education Educator Teachers 0

Todd Nesloney – Director of Culture and Strategic Leadership for the Texas Elementary Principals and Supervisors Association (TEPSA)

About Todd Nesloney

Todd Nesloney is the Director of Culture and Strategic Leadership for the Texas Elementary Principals and Supervisors Association (TEPSA). He has also served as an award-winning principal of a PreK-5th Grade campus of over 775 students in a rural town in Texas. He has been recognized by the White House, John C Maxwell, the Center for Digital Education, National School Board Association, the BAMMYS, and more for his work in education and with children. Todd has written six books, including the runaway smash Kids Deserve It and his newest book Building Authenticity: A Blueprint for the Leader Inside You. He is passionate about doing whatever it takes for our students and teachers and helping others tell their story

Connect with Todd Nesloney: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Twitter | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

TEPSA
Kids Deserve It
Building Authenticity: A Blueprint for the Leader Inside You

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by Todd Nesloney. Todd is author to six books. He is a culture fanatic. He seems to be a superstar fan with the sweater he’s wearing in this interview. Yeah, all right, Star Wars fan, I should say.

Sam Demma
And although we’ve only known each other for a few minutes, has so much positive energy. Todd, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.

Todd Nesloney
Hey man, I’m super excited to be here and to get to chat today. So thank you for asking me to be here.

Sam Demma
Why teaching? Why education? Tell me more about your passion for creating the next generation of young leaders and principals and teachers.

Todd Nesloney
You know, I love when I get asked this question because I get to kind of reflect on my own path and know that, you know, my experience in school was one where I wasn’t really in trouble because I knew my mama would come up to that school and handle me. So I wasn’t ever going to get in trouble for any kind of reason. I had good grades. I did what I needed to do. And so because of that, I kind of like blended in really easily with the rest of the students.

Todd Nesloney
And so I don’t remember any of my teachers from school, not for good or for bad. I didn’t have any terrible teachers, but I don’t remember any teachers that really ever saw me. And so throughout school, when I was like, what do I want to do with my life?

Todd Nesloney
I was like, I want to work with kids in some capacity. I want to work with kids where when they leave me and working with me, they at least feel seen. And so I thought it was gonna be social work until I learned very quickly, I cannot disconnect myself emotionally

Todd Nesloney
from that kind of work, so it’s not for me. And I was like, teaching, I have several people in my family who are teachers, I can impact kids that way. And so I became a teacher, fell in love with it, never thought I would do anything outside the classroom. And then this opportunity to go and get your masters

Todd Nesloney
while you’re teaching came up and my co-teachers and I were like, let’s all do it together. It’s all virtual, we can work together and we did that. And then from there on, it just led to opportunity, opportunity, opportunity. And I’m the kind of person where if I’m feeling challenged

Todd Nesloney
by something, I wanna pursue it. And so I was like, well, you know what, I’m feeling really good right now in teaching. I feel like I’ve got a really good flow. I’m not really being as challenged as I have been in the past.

Todd Nesloney
Let me jump into this and try this. That looks fun and challenging. And so that led to me being a principal, which led to me speaking and presenting and consulting and also now with my to work at the Texas Elementary Principal Association.

Sam Demma
It sounds like needing to have a challenge is a consistent theme in your life. We just talked about it before we hit the record button regarding some of the books you’ve written and how those were big challenges and you never imagined you’d write the book and maybe that’s the reason why you did the first one and what a gift to the world. Can you tell us a little bit about some of your books that are relevant in education?

Sam Demma
Kids Deserve It, of course, we can start there maybe and then a few of your other projects.

Todd Nesloney
Yeah, you know, Kids Deserve It was crazy. I will never forget sitting around the table with my co-author at the time and hearing him. We were talking about like, let’s write something together. We were writing blog posts, it was really easy. And the phrase, Kids Deserve It,

Todd Nesloney
came up in the conversation. And we were like, hey, that’s a pretty cool phrase. And like, we could really run with that with a lot of these ideas that we have. And so the book was born from that and it took off far more than we were anticipating. Like I

Todd Nesloney
was like 12 copies this next year, that’s my goal. Like if I can sell 12, success! And then it just created this entire community, this movement, and when I wrote it I was like I’m done. Like I put everything into there, I will never write another book, that was so much work, my whole heart is on the page. And then, because I also don’t want to put something out into the world that there are so many versions of already. Like, I like to feel like I’m trailblazing or trying something new or pushing the boundaries, which is part of our tagline in Kids Deserve It.

Todd Nesloney
And so when my publisher kept saying, you’ve got more ideas, you’ve got more ideas, I was like, yeah, but I don’t have like a unique hook right now or anything. And that’s where the next book was born, which out of all my books, it is probably the one I’m proudest of. And that’s just because it’s called Stories from Web,

Todd Nesloney
because I worked at Web Elementary. And when I wrote my second book, it’s written very similarly to Kids Deserve It, except I utilized some advice one of my mentors gave me. His name’s Jimmy Casas, one of the most incredible speakers and authors in the world.

Todd Nesloney
And he said, Todd, I want you to remember that no matter how big of a microphone you are given, I want you to continue to amplify others louder than you amplify yourself. And that has always really stuck with me. And so when I was writing the second book, I was like, I only want to write this because I’m working with the most incredible people on the planet. Like these teachers at the school that I’m at,

Todd Nesloney
they’re doing amazing things and nobody knows because they’re not on social media or they’re not out there speaking. They’re like just nose to the grindstone, getting it done. And so I said, if I’m going to write a book, I want to feature their stories throughout it.

Todd Nesloney
So every chapter features stories from the custodians, to the teachers, to the instructional aides, to the assistant superintendent, just a reminder that everybody’s voice matters and every story matters. And then from there it led to a book about literacy because I started to fall in love with that, then to a book about student leadership, and then during the pandemic I got to write a book

Todd Nesloney
just filled of hope and inspiration. My first book, not for educators, just for anybody, that anybody can pick up and just get a dose of art and words on the page to inspire them. And then my newest book is all about leadership and how every one of us is a leader, whether you are leading at work, at home, or in your friendship circles, just with strategies on how to do that and do it well.

Sam Demma
When do you sleep, Todd?

Todd Nesloney
Great question. Now I don’t sleep at all because we’ve got three-and-a-half-year-old twins. But, you know, it’s funny because I get asked that a lot, like, how do I do all the things that I do? And I am very protective of my personal time as well. So I have really, my wife and I have communicated a lot

Todd Nesloney
about what is non-negotiable family time or any kind of those kind of things. But what I, this is where my ADHD becomes a superpower instead of a detriment, is that when I get super focused on something or attached to something, I can knock it out much quicker than when I’m distracted

Todd Nesloney
by a thousand things. So when I’m writing, it’s like when that inspiration hits me, I gotta shut the world out, give me two and a half hours, and I can get like 30 pages done. And so, and then when the inspiration’s gone, I’m like, well, I’ll be back in a week or two.

Todd Nesloney
Hopefully it’ll hit me again and then I can continue the work. Um, I I’m so jealous of like those authors who like locked themselves in a cabin for a week and come out with a book. I’m like, nah, I could never.

Sam Demma
You mentioned Webb, the school and the amazing staff. It sounds like the culture in that building is phenomenal. You’re someone who talks about culture, consults on culture, lives it, breathes it, and it’s a word that’s used so often in schools. How do you describe culture

Sam Demma
and how do you think you build a meaningful culture in an educational institution? You know, I think this came,

Todd Nesloney
this started with my classroom experience, coming from that idea of, I never want a student to leave my classroom and not have at some point had their core need met, which was, at the core of each of us is we want to feel seen, we want to feel heard, and we want to feel valued. And so my goal always is with interactions that I have with people, especially for an

Todd Nesloney
extended amount of time when I’m working with them or living life with them, I want to make sure that the things that I’m putting in place to connect with them is meeting one of those needs. Am I helping them feel seen? Am I helping them feel heard? Or am I helping them feel valued? Because if not, it’s just like icing on a cupcake. It’s just like it washes away. It’s sweet. It’s gone. Whatever. And so in

Todd Nesloney
the classroom that was so important. So when I became a principal, I was actually hired as part of my job was to fix the culture of the school. Because they had a 50% turnover every year. Scores were in the trash. And it was a lot of it was just the culture. Teachers didn’t believe in themselves, they didn’t believe in each other, and they didn’t believe in the kids because they’d been broken by the system. And so I was like, you know what? This is my new classroom. These are my new students. And so it’s always been

Todd Nesloney
such a passion of mine because I’m such a heart guy. And so when I work with people now, whether it’s in the corporate world, whether it’s in the education world, or even in a classroom experience, it still goes back to those three core needs.

Todd Nesloney
And my thing is, is like, you can do a lot of nice stuff. I’m from Texas, in the South, we have this phrase of you can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig. And you know, it’s kind of that idea of you can do nice things, but if you are still a jerk, your nice things make no difference. And so when I work with administrators, one of the examples that I use is I saw something go viral a few years ago. Fantastic idea.

Todd Nesloney
I did it. And it was the snack cart where they put all these snacks and drinks on a cart and they roll it down the hall and they’ll knock on a door and say, hey, we got some snacks and drinks for you. And I tell people, we as teachers, we love two things, free stuff and spending somebody else’s money. Like those are our top two things.

Todd Nesloney
And so I’m like, you bringing the snack cart, that’s not a bad thing at all. People will open their door, they’ll be excited about a free chips or a free drink. It’s not gonna change the way they feel about you because if I had a terrible supervisor

Todd Nesloney
and they brought me free chips, I’m still going to take your chips. I’m not going to like you anymore, but I’m still going to take your free stuff. And so I said, you know, that cart in and of itself does not impact culture. It’s not a bad thing. I’m not telling you not to do it. Everybody loves free stuff. But what I’m telling you is a cart full of random snacks and drinks does not make anybody feel seen, does not make anybody feel valued, or does not make anybody feel heard.

Todd Nesloney
The way you level up that idea is, one of the things we did on our campus was at the beginning of every year, I would send out a survey to my staff that said things like, who’s your emergency contact, t-shirt size, all that stuff we collect. But also, what’s your favorite salty snack?

Todd Nesloney
What’s your favorite sweet snack? What’s your favorite, if we had a local coffee shop, coffee from this coffee shop? If you’re gonna get a snack at a fast food restaurant, what restaurant are you gonna go to and what are you gonna get?

Todd Nesloney
And then we have something down here in the South that’s real big with teachers, and that’s called Sonic. That Sonic drink stop, I don’t know what it is about that Root 44 Diet Coke light ice with one squeeze of lime, but it’s like Oprah showed up at their classroom with a free car. Like it made people like break down in tears.

Todd Nesloney
And so we always had asked, what’s your favorite Sonic drink? So what we started doing on our campus was, instead of just bringing a random assortments of snacks and drinks, I would go to Sonic or to the store or whatever and grab that person’s favorite drink. So when I showed up at their door I’m like, hey I know it’s been

Todd Nesloney
rough this week, I can tell, I’ve heard it, I see it, I wanted to go and get you your drink at Sonic today and just tell you I hope your day gets better. And in that moment it has nothing to do with the drink and that’s what I try to help people see. It’s not about giving people free stuff because in that moment for the person that’s receiving their favorite drink, all that’s going through their head is, really, you thought of me uninitiated,

Todd Nesloney
and not only did you think of me, but you remembered something I shared with you about myself and brought something specific for me. That’s where you start to change culture slowly, is when people can see that you are invested in them, not invested in the whole.

Todd Nesloney
Because when you’re invested only in the whole, people go, oh, so if I don’t show up, nothing really changes because nobody even noticed I wasn’t here. And that’s how you get people who start to not work as hard,

Todd Nesloney
who start to take days off for no reason, who start to look for jobs elsewhere. My campus that I worked on, we could not offer the salary that districts 20 miles up the road from us could offer. We could not offer some of the resources.

Todd Nesloney
But when I hired people, I told them, what I can offer you is a place where I will work every day to fulfill all those needs you have as a classroom teacher and celebrate you and build you up and give you the resources. We’re not perfect. Nobody is. But I can promise you that we work hard to invest in our people here.

Todd Nesloney
And that was kind of one of the selling points. And so when I work with people in all kinds of leadership positions, and if you’re a classroom teacher listening, you are in a leadership position. So don’t think you aren’t, just because you don’t get paid, when some of those leaders up top get paid. People are still watching you, ears are still listening to you,

Todd Nesloney
you’re still leading, whether you want to or not. And so it’s all about how are you making others feel seen, valued and heard.

Sam Demma
Can you think of an experience where someone made you feel seen, valued and heard? And maybe you are not expecting it. And the reason I bring it up is because sometimes what seems insignificant to us can mean the absolute world to another human being because we have no idea what someone else is going through. In the context of a school, sometimes we do know if someone’s having a rough week, but sometimes the moments that have the greatest impact is when we have no idea

Sam Demma
that someone else is struggling and we go out of our way to try and make them feel seen and heard. And it could be something they remember for the rest of their lives. And I’m just curious, have you had a moment like that in your life that’s inspired you to do more of this work?

Todd Nesloney
You know, I can think of little things along the way. Something that’s always meant a lot to me is just the acknowledgement of my presence. I think sometimes when you spend a lot of time pouring into others, you also spend a lot of time trying not to be the focus of the moment or the space. And my personality, I’m super, super introverted. And people don’t believe that because they see me present, do all this other stuff, and I’m like,

Todd Nesloney
no, that’s the extrovert time, and then it’s gone. And then I need quiet time in the car or whatever. So when I enter spaces, I often shrink myself because it’s like I’m uncomfortable, I am just trying to pour into others, I’m not focusing on me, and so it’s very easy for me

Todd Nesloney
to leave some of those spaces and not feel like anybody even noticed I was there if I wasn’t trying to be the focus. But at the same time, one of the things I talk about in a lot of my messages is the power of a phone call. And how it’s a completely free resource that you have, but how we were doing it with our students. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, if things weren’t great for students, they will work great for the adults, too.

Todd Nesloney
And so I started this positive phone call thing with the adults on our campus. And my assistant principal was one of my first ones that I did. I called home to his mom with him there on speakerphone, celebrated him in front of his mom. He said it was the coolest experience just to have somebody you that’s in your life celebrate you in front of somebody that you love so much.

Todd Nesloney
And he’s like, as adults, people don’t do that. Like that’s a kid thing. And he said, I’ve never felt that emotion before. And so I talk about that in my messages about how I think all of us anytime we enter a space with more than three or four people we should pull out our phone and be like oh my god Julie you are freaking amazing who can I call right now to celebrate you in front

Todd Nesloney
of and I said people are gonna say oh you don’t have to do that and we trained our staff to be like no that’s what we do here let us love you and it takes a minute to two minutes of the time. So I was sharing about that at a presentation. Afterwards, I finished, everybody went and did their thing. I was talking to some people afterwards, and this gentleman came up and he was like, I really loved what you had to share about that phone call. He said, I want to do that for you now.

Todd Nesloney
Who can I call? And I was like, um, no, no, no, no. Like I talk about this. Like you don’t have to do this for me. Like no. And he was like, no, what do we say Todd?

Todd Nesloney
Let us love you. And I was like, and I got so uncomfortable. I was like, oh my God, like I talk about this, but I didn’t want people to do it to me. Like what, what the heck? This is where my introvertness like takes over. And I like, oh my God.

Todd Nesloney
And so I was like, I don’t know, I guess my wife. And so he was like, okay, call her up, put her on speakerphone. And so in the midst of this foyer, of this space, where all these people are coming and going, I call my wife and she’s like, hello.

Todd Nesloney
And I was like, you are on speakerphone, I am fine. I was like, because she knew I was at work, she’s like, what’s going on? And I was like, hey, somebody wanted to talk to you real quick. She’s like, okay, and he takes the phone and he was like, Hey, I just gotta say your husband just spoke to us. It was

Todd Nesloney
incredible. You are you’re so lucky to get to have him and we’re so thankful that you shared him with like all the stuff that I share, like how we did the phone calls. And I got so emotional in the moment, feeling that reciprocated what I had talked about doing for others and what we had done for years at our school. And as soon as we were done, I was just like, I didn’t know what to say. Like, I was like, thank you, that really meant a lot. And this was like, probably years ago. And I still think about it at least once a week. And anytime I talk about this, I had spent so much time pouring this idea into others and sharing that it not had always been reciprocated for me, which I wasn’t time pouring this idea into others and sharing that it not

Todd Nesloney
had always been reciprocated for me, which I wasn’t asking it to be. And so I don’t want that to be part of the story. But when it had been done, and I experienced it as well, unexpectedly, like not part of a, oh, yeah, this is Tuesday, who are we calling kind of thing. It was, it was game changing for me. And so I think that that was one of those moments that I was like, okay, yep, I got to

Todd Nesloney
experience it from this other side, instead of being the one experiencing it, the excitement from seeing the joy on someone else’s face. I got to feel that deep emotion of being celebrated and then having my wife call me hours later and be like, that was so cool. Like, why did you do that? Like, did you tell him to do that? And I was like, no, I was not going to listen to the president. I did not want that to be done. It was so uncomfortable, but I loved it at the same time.

Todd Nesloney
Like it’s so, and sometimes those really uncomfortable things, we do need to put ourselves through because it leads to so many great things down the road.

Sam Demma
I love the story.

Sam Demma
I hope it’s in one of your books. It sounds like you have so many phenomenal ideas, not only for educators, but this idea of celebrating folks with the people that matter most in their lives over the phone can be done at any point,

Sam Demma
any day with anybody. And I love it. If you could wave a magic wand and change, you know, certain things in education across the globe, are there any things you would start with or things that you think, if these three things shifted

Sam Demma
or these one or two things shifted in schools that would have a massive ripple effect? If so, what would those things be?

Todd Nesloney
Sam, do you have like three more hours? That’s a pretty big question. No, you know, there’s so many different elements and I feel like it’s shifting some of those, some of the things that we are dealing with are shifting continually.

Todd Nesloney
And with my role now in education, especially where I get to work with administrators across the state on a daily basis, in addition to all my speaking and consulting that I do worldwide, I get to hear a lot of different sides of what’s happening.

Todd Nesloney
And so I think the answer to your question is, I think there’s a big change I would make in the administration world, and there’s some big changes I would make in the teaching world. For teachers, specifically,

Todd Nesloney
we have to be trusted to do what we do. And I feel like there are a lot of things we could complain about in education right now, but to me, a lot of it boils down to we aren’t trusted to do our jobs. Whether that is the books we choose to read

Todd Nesloney
in the classroom, the discipline and social emotional things we put into play, the lesson planning, the curriculum, there’s so many elements that it’s like, you aren’t trusted to do this, so we’re gonna have this committee decide it for you, and then we’re gonna need you to write six pages

Todd Nesloney
over how you’re gonna do this, and then we’re gonna need you to grade it all, and then we’re gonna need you to meet for all these meetings, and then we’re gonna need you to have all the data that you’re gonna organize and write a report over as well, and it’s like, okay, when am I supposed to teach?

Todd Nesloney
Because, like, all the things you want from me suck out all the joy of why I got to do this, which was teaching. And so, I mean, we could go into the amount of discipline that we’re dealing with right now. We could go into lack of support from admin sometimes.

Todd Nesloney
There’s a lot of elements and I think everybody experiences the education profession a little bit differently, but I feel like there’s so much more celebration that needs to happen with those humans that are giving their lives up

Todd Nesloney
and often their family relationships, their friendships, to invest so deeply. Because I think that was an unexpected element for me when I became a teacher, was how deeply emotionally invested we get in your children.

Todd Nesloney
And I think that so many parents don’t realize that. And are there bad seed teachers? Yes, but there’s bad seeds in every profession. I mean, go to McDonald’s, there’s somebody there not doing their job. Go to the grocery store,

Todd Nesloney
there’s somebody there not doing their job. Like, that’s not unique to teaching and there’s always gonna be people who make poor decisions and that reflect on all of us. But when I think of administration, what I would say to teachers is, I thought I knew what an administrator did until I became an administrator. And I think administrators often get a bad rap because of decisions that they have to make or split second things or anything like that.

Todd Nesloney
And are there bad administrators? Yes. I mean, we just said there are bad people in every position everywhere. But on the whole, it is so much harder being an administrator than I ever imagined because of the weight that they carry that nobody else can help them carry. As a teacher, I can carry weight and lean on my colleagues, reach out to my supervisor, talk about brainstorm. As an administrator, like I have to deal with it or I have to go in to court and talk about a CPS case. I have to deal with parents berating me or staff upset or community. I mean, it’s a lot. And so for teachers listening, I would say, if you have an administrator that you

Todd Nesloney
respect at all, let them know how much you appreciate them. Because administrators spend at least 75% of their day being told what they’re not doing right or what they’re not good enough at. And that is so emotionally draining that when you have a great administrator, you better build them up and hug them and love them because they are using the 25% they have left to give you all of it. And so I think sometimes we forget about that.

Todd Nesloney
And this is not saying that teachers don’t also give, this is not a us versus them. We have to get out of that mindset. What I’m saying is, as a teacher, I swore I knew what that principal or assistant principal was doing.

Todd Nesloney
I swore I could get in that job and do things differently or better, and until I was actually in that position, I realized I had no idea. And I went to my principal after I was hired and was a principal for a year,

Todd Nesloney
I went to my previous principal and I apologized. And I told her, I said, I did not tell you thank you enough. Like I did not see these little things you were doing that I thought were just naturally happening. And now I realized you were behind them

Todd Nesloney
and you weren’t telling anybody because that’s not what you do. And so if you think, well, yeah, whatever Todd, I do know what my principal does, it’s nothing. Well, I can guarantee they do something, but think about when you were in college.

Todd Nesloney
You swore you knew what a teacher did, that’s why you wanted to become a teacher. And then you got that first teaching job and you realized everybody lied to you. There’s a thousand more things that you have to do as a teacher than anybody ever told you about.

Todd Nesloney
So just the idea, let’s spend more time celebrating. Let’s spend more time giving each other grace, and building those relationships and really connecting with each other. I think that that’s where we can begin to see a change. So to answer your question in a roundabout way,

Todd Nesloney
there’s a lot that we can change about education, and there always will be, because there’s a lot when you get hired by any group that you will wanna change. But I think for me, I wish teachers were more celebrated, I wish they were more respected,

Todd Nesloney
and I wish they were more trusted to do what they need to do. And I think if those things happen, we would see a lot of other things fall more easily into place.

Sam Demma
Trusted, respected, and celebrated. Todd, I appreciate your time on the show. It’s been a pleasure. I look forward to staying connected and hearing about the work you’re doing in your world. Where can educators listening to this find you or reach out and celebrate you

Sam Demma
if they’re inspired by this conversation today?

Todd Nesloney
Well, I think my easiest place is my website, which is just toddnesloney.com. You can just Google Todd Nesloney. If you spell it wrong, it’ll come up. There’s only so many ways you can spell Nesloney. But I am active on every social media platform. Most of them I’m Tech Ninja Todd or Todd Nesloney and I’ve got blogs, videos, books, all that kind of stuff on my site too.

Todd Nesloney
So definitely would love to connect.

Sam Demma
Awesome, Todd, keep up the great work and thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. to come on the show.

Todd Nesloney
Thanks, man.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Todd Nesloney

January 16, 2025 by Sam Demma Author Director of Education Education Student Success 0

Jeff Armour – Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University

About Jeff Armour

Jeff Armour is the Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University. Jeff graduated with a B.Sc. from Western University and after a few years of service overseeing the Wave and Spoke restaurant and bars on campus the USC encouraged Jeff to enroll in the Project Management program through Western’s Continuing Studies. Jeff was subsequently promoted to higher-level leadership position in the organization until ultimately landing at the COO role he currently holds. Jeff also recently completed his EMBA at Ivey in July 2023.

Jeff has an extensive background in strategic planning, project management, operations restructuring and realignment, change management and financial strategy.

Jeff is married to Mindy and has three children, Kennedee, Ben and Brad. He was born in BC but grew up in Peterborough, Jeff moved to London for school at Western and never left.

Connect with Jeff Armour: Email | Linkedin | Twitter | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

University Students’ Council (USC)
Western University
Ivey

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Jeff Armour. Jeff and I, we met each other a few years ago and we’ve stayed in touch. Personally, I’m super inspired by the Student Union, the USC at Western that they operate and that Jeff organizes and supports.

Sam Demma
And they do incredible things in the post-secondary space. And I’m honored to have Jeff on the show again. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Jeff Armour
Hey, thanks for inviting me. I guess the first one you can get lucky on, the second one means maybe I did something right. So that’s good.

Sam Demma
I really enjoyed the conversation. And I know this is gonna be just as valuable. There’s so many ways we could take this conversation and different things we could talk about. One of the things I’m most inspired about with your leadership at the USC is every team member seems like the most phenomenal human being. I have some of the most memorable experiences working with you and your staff. Where do you find these amazing human beings? How, like, where do they come from?

Jeff Armour
Wow, there’s two different answers there, I think. The one that’s like maybe the romantic answer is, I think setting a culture and having a purpose-driven organization attracts certain people. That, you know, the old adage at McDonald’s where they say there were smiles on the menu and those were free, and they were selling burgers and fries, but what they were really selling was smiles. I think people come here because they know we’re selling smiles to students. So although they might be a great accountant or a great productions person or a great clubs facilitator or even the people in HR, I think everybody rallies behind the idea that we’re trying to make students smile and enhance the educational experience, which is our mission statement.

Jeff Armour
So that’s the cheesy, super inspirational, like “I’ve got it all figured out” answer. The more, maybe more real answer is, I think there’s a certain amount of luck there. There’s a certain amount of strong leadership about, you know, what type of behaviors and what type of people we want to have here, which obviously changes things a little bit. And then the final piece of that is, when you’ve got something good going on, people like to talk to their friends or the other people they work with, and it spreads pretty quickly. So that’s lovely to see when you’re bringing other people into the fold of what you’re doing.

Sam Demma
I think when it comes to teams, the teams that operate really effectively have cohesion and they’re all unified by that single mission or purpose. And they voice their thoughts and their feelings and have these thoughtful disagreements so they can come up with the best ideas and move forward as a committed, I guess, team of people. How do you think about building that team and encouraging cohesion amongst members of the whole organization?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, I think you said it right at the outset, what is ultimately the goal? In a for-profit entity, you get a lot of infighting, I think, because the goal is making money. And sometimes to make money, you’ve got to step on some toes a little bit. And there’s some one-upmanship going on there in competition, which creates perhaps a better value or more profit when you have that sort of infighting.

Jeff Armour
When you’re centered on purpose, and as long as the leader can set a pretty clear goal of, I mean, I guess I just talked about putting smiles on students’ faces, everyone can get behind that. And the one-upmanship is not stepping on other people’s toes, but it’s more like improv: yes and, you know, as opposed to no, but maybe we could do something else. You get a lot of yes ands. “That’s a great idea. And you know what else would be good is this.” So it’s more like piling on in terms of contribution as opposed to ripping it down to try and one-up to make sure that, you know, you get the promotion or the bigger bonus.

Jeff Armour
That is definitely a major focus around here. Failure isn’t the negative. Not trying is the thing we don’t want to see. Just keep trying. You make a mistake, great, we won’t have to make that one again. That’s another one off the list. So it creates a good environment where everyone wants to jump in and see what other ideas they’ve got or, you know, kind of do the yes and.

Sam Demma
I was recently golfing with my godfather and he’s a big reader of books, and he told me to check out this book called Principles by Ray Dalio. And it was all about his life and work principles that he had operated on for a long time. And one of them was, “We celebrate mistakes but don’t tolerate not learning from them.” They had this software in his organization called the issue log. And every time you made a mistake, it was your responsibility to log it and to share it.

Sam Demma
So you put the date and the time and the mistake you made, and the next sync with the whole team, you would talk about it openly so that everyone could learn from the same mistake that just one person made, and then talk about how to avoid it moving forward. And when you’re talking about celebrating mistakes, that whole idea came to mind. How did you build that culture of celebrating mistakes? Is it something similar? Or like, what did you do?

Jeff Armour
It’s just funny because when I took on this role as the COO, formerly the general manager, we were very, very siloed. So no one wanted to talk about their mistakes, right? Despite the immense amount of value. And so because of that, there was no history written. And because of that, we were destined to make the same mistakes over and over again, which is exactly what we were doing. Which was creating a lot of frustration in people that wanted to be here and improve on it and build towards those smiles and great experiences.

Jeff Armour
It was like, “But why are we… like I get it, but why are we… like I’ll try. You’re paying me. Why are we doing the same thing again? I have this other idea. If we could have just turned that one thing and made it better.” And I’m kind of blowing it here, but when I first took on the role, there’s many things that I did, starting with, like, I reintroduced myself to the team. Like literally did a PowerPoint and said, like, “You’ve known me because I was here for probably 15 years before that and reintroduced myself to the team, my senior management team, and basically said, so, you know Jeff, but you don’t, you don’t know Jeff.”

Jeff Armour
The next thing I did was quietly without labeling it—because I like that—what did you call it? A log of…

Sam Demma
They called it the issues log.

Jeff Armour
Issues log. So I was regularly having meetings as I started to do some change management on the culture of our team—not change management like we’re getting into new products or whatever—it was more of culture change. And I would strategically every other meeting or every, you know, I tried to make it not rhythmic so people started to pick up on it. But I talk about, like, one of the mistakes I made early on. Like, “Oh, coming in this job, I know I, and I made this, I did this thing or whatever.” And what started to happen was they would laugh along with me. But not only that, contribute to ideas of how we could avoid that in the future.

Jeff Armour
And I say I’m kind of letting the lid off this because some of them will, if they hear this, will be like, “Wait, you were doing that on purpose?” Like, I don’t want to make it seem like it was contrived, but really, we weren’t talking about our failures. And when I say failures, I mean, like, it’s a chance to learn or otherwise. So instead, what we would do is someone who you would think would have no opinion on an item—let’s say it was something that we made a mistake in budget—and then someone who’s nowhere near the budget process would be like, “Why didn’t you just ask us about what we were going to… like, that would have helped you avoid that mistake three months later.”

Jeff Armour
And I was like, “Oh, that’s… you know, write it down. Then you make sure you follow up.” Then you start to… and suddenly people can see that change and improvement on mistakes. But not only that, subconsciously, they’re thinking, it’s OK if I bring up a mistake I made. Maybe other people have good ideas because no one’s ever asked me about the budget thing. And now I was able to contribute to a positive outcome, right? It’s like teaching. It’s like a learned behavior that you’re not explicitly teaching them about. Because if I came out and said, “We’re going to…,” they’d be like, “Oh, great. He’s read some books, and he’s trying to… whatever.” Instead, it was like mimicking the behaviors I wanted to see the entire corporation do, like everybody, right down to the person who’s cutting the bagel being like, “Why do we cut the bagels before the person orders it? Like, it takes three seconds, and if we had one of these little machines, we could just…” Great, let’s hear about that.

Jeff Armour
And no one should have their feelings hurt. You should have your feelings hurt if you’re not listening, or you continue to not learn from it—not by not trying, right? It’s just the effort that counts. So the reason I was smiling when you asked the question is because it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to have to tell them the truth, and it’s going to probably be a little whistleblower here on my behaviors,” but yeah.

Sam Demma
Well, I think at the end of the day, it also gives other people permission, like you said, to voice their mistakes. Like you’re actually, as the leader, leading with vulnerability by saying, “Here’s a mistake I made.” And that vulnerability you’re leading with is allowing other people at the table to say, “Hey, it’s OK to be vulnerable.”

Sam Demma
Because if Jeff’s leading us and Jeff’s being vulnerable, so can I. Do you think it’s really important that you did that first? Like if you didn’t share, do you think other people would have shared, or would it have taken a much longer time for that to unfold?

Jeff Armour
I think, yeah, it definitely would have taken longer for it to unfold. Yeah, that’s… I think that’s fair to say. I think I’ve also always just been a person that, like, if I’m going to ask you to do it, I better do it first. Like literally in, like, physical actions. Like if I’m telling you to move that pile of dirt over there, I better be the first person to put the shovel in the ground and, like, to help move the dirt. And then, you know, I always prefer when people that I’m working with or that, you know, are trying to buy into something to be like, “Hey, I’ve got this dirt thing. Why don’t you go over there and start to build that wall so then I can come over and paint,” you know, or otherwise.

Jeff Armour
Like once they can see why they’re doing something and how they fit into the bigger picture, to start to push leadership or someone who’s helping them into where they should be is way better than saying, “I’m in leadership. Do as I say and, like, figure it out on your own.” I don’t know, it just feels like that’s… I don’t know, yucky, kind of condescending, or I don’t know, more like a boss, right?

Sam Demma
Do you trust your intuition and gut on a lot of the decisions you make, or do you have principles or, like, certain guardrails that you think about before you make a decision?

Jeff Armour
Yeah. I’m learning to trust that more.

Sam Demma
Yeah.

Jeff Armour
Here I am at my age now, where I’m at in my career. And we actually, just last week, did StrengthsFinder with the senior leadership team here, the senior managers we’ve got. And my strengths, which make me uncomfortable—and I don’t think I’m sharing that out of turn—they make me uncomfortable because they’re kind of like traditional, hard strengths I’m not super comfortable with.

Jeff Armour
However, because of that, I haven’t really trusted it in the past, which I think has made me more of an authentic leader. Like that kind of… Are you familiar with the Gallup StrengthsFinder stuff?

Sam Demma
I don’t know too much about it, other than it’s like similar to other personality tests to figure out how people can deal with one another, understand how they operate. That’s why—but I could be wrong.

Jeff Armour
No, no, that’s basically it. I mean, the only real big difference is it’s a Gallup-founded test, which means there’s like a hundred billion data points that Gallup has because they do surveys all the time. So it’s like really… And it’s shocking how close it is. It’s amazing insights. So yeah, to get back to the question of, like, do I trust it? I don’t, but I think that’s actually what makes me good.

Jeff Armour
I’m naturally a pessimist with a very strong optimistic outlook. I can see the negative side, but I’m always like, there’s this terrible thing that could happen, but you know what? It’s going to be awesome. So I’m literally built to prepare for the worst and plan for the best. Like it’s ingrained in my DNA to actually do that. So yeah, I don’t really trust… I really trust the people that are around me. If I’m half-hearted into something or they’re not sure if I’m sure, they’ll either give me the resolve or push me a little bit to get to that solid place because I think they trust my instincts more than I trust my own.

Sam Demma
It’s probably not a good answer, but I mean, that’s the truth—is I’m a little cautious with my gut.

Jeff Armour
I think that that’s so important. I think it’s one of the reasons why the organization, the USC, succeeds because if you do just consistently put your eggs in one basket and you feel like, “This is the best decision ever, we’re doing the right thing,” and you don’t ever think, “Well, what if we could be wrong?” you might have some blind spots, and you overcommit too many times. Things can fall apart. Who do you ask, or, like, how do you ask when you have those thoughts?

Jeff Armour
I think the best part about it now, where we’re at, initially I had sort of a small group of people that knew me and knew who I was that I could be not just vulnerable with, but, like, weak. Quite literally just be like, “This is tough.” And early on in the job, there were several things that tested my resolve. And then, you know, middle of the bell curve was COVID, which again, tested things.

Jeff Armour
And in the first chat we had, we talked about my decision to bring everybody back in full. There was no hybrid, which now, I guess, it’s been two years since we did that podcast, I think, or a year or whatever. It’s just showing in droves how great the culture is here. And there’s no group at home and group at work and all of that. Great for… we’re really, like, for the listeners here, we’re really an in-person impact. Like the student walks into your office and says, “Hey, I need some help.” Really hard to schedule a Zoom with people when they’re just walking in. You know, you can’t predict when it’s going to happen. It’s kind of like, you know…

Jeff Armour
So yeah, that’s sort of when I started to realize that my gut instinct was probably pretty strong because I ask a lot of questions. I’m, I think, a good listener. I know where we want to go to. And so what happens is every interaction I have, whether it’s just walking through the halls or otherwise, goes into my brain, unfortunately. It doesn’t add stress to me, but it adds data points. And those data points help me formulate an opinion that makes my gut call a little bit stronger.

Jeff Armour
And this is all stuff that I’ve learned over the last, probably even like last two months as we’ve really gotten into the StrengthsFinder stuff and realized that that is the way I operate. I used to be afraid of it because I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand where that gut… like, nobody just has gut instincts like that. The gut instinct comes from like listening and actively challenging, but also being a pessimist and looking out for the worst, but also hoping for the best. So all those things come together to make it, yeah, what I use.

Jeff Armour
Small group initially, and now I don’t even have to ask for opinions when I’m looking at making a decision or there’s something that’s challenging the group. Everyone feels very comfortable walking into my door and just being like, “Hey, I know this is a problem we’ve got, and I wonder if this would help. I found this article, and here you go. Do you want to read it?” And then you can go even deeper, like, “Oh, interesting, what kind of triggered you? Like, what made you resonate with this challenge that we’re facing?” And it’s like, “Well, I think it’s really important because I see every single day X, Y, and Z.” More data points to go in for the analytical, more information, more comfort with talking to what, in a traditional model, would be like the leadership.

Jeff Armour
And I use that loosely. Because I don’t necessarily believe in, like, there’s got to be one boss. I believe, like, the hive mind works to a certain extent, but at some point, someone has to make a decision, and I get that, right? So I really encourage that. And I think the open-door policy and willingness to listen, and not being afraid that someone has a different opinion than I do, and that means I’m not going to make a decision because they differ with it. I’m great with that because it’s just more data points, right?

Sam Demma
I mean, you’re sharing principles with me right now, like, you know, plan for the worst, but expect the best. The open-door policy, gather information, you know, be a good listener to make the best-informed decision. If I was to chat with members of the USC, other people on the team, and sit them down and say, “What does Jeff say to you most often?” Like, if you were to tell me, “These are Jeff’s, like, maybe not just Jeff’s, but these are the USC’s values or principles and things that we hear over and over and over again,” what are a few of those things or some that stick out in your mind that you think they’d share with me?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, some are very USC-specific, that were student-led. Yep. Which, that’s a value we hold—that at the end of the day, there should be a student at the table. I’m not just talking about the president—obviously, the president—but like a student. So if you’re making decisions around clubs, there should be members from the club system involved in making that decision, right? Because they know better than we do.

Jeff Armour
That’s the best way to protect against aging out in an organization that essentially—we’re vampire keepers. The vampires stay 22, 20 years old, and we get older and older, and they stay the same age, right? So the best way to insulate against that is to get as many of them around the table to make the decisions and help you with it. So that’s a big principle that used to scare us. Any student association, I think, would be scared because it’s like, “Wow, I personally am getting out of touch with what that generation wants.” Right? I don’t know what skibbity bathwater means. I don’t understand. Like, it was a couple of years ago.

Jeff Armour
But I don’t have to keep up with that. And the reason I know those words is because there are students around me all the time who are open to sharing with me, just like the clubs’ decision, just like if there’s something that’s going on around designing our menu. Don’t ask someone who’s 45 what they want on the menu because they want nachos and chicken wings, which I definitely want. But maybe the bowls are really hot, or maybe having halal chicken is really important to a large chunk of our… So all those things—students around the table. That’s the USC sort of thing—is that we’re student-led, OK?

Jeff Armour
For me personally, there are two things that are very important, and that is trying. I want to see people trying all the time because I believe that’s where the good stuff happens. Keep trying. I’ve already said it to you earlier on in the interview. You can see that they will hear that. And then from the management leadership realm, it’s delegate, right? Great. You’re great at that. Delegate it. Because I’ve got other stuff that I want to delegate to you. Delegate, delegate.

Sam Demma
And what would be the fear with delegating?

Jeff Armour
That they’re not going to do a good job, or it’s going to get done wrong.

Sam Demma
I still feel it. How do you—like, tell me more.

Jeff Armour
And so then they’re going to… Not just you making mistakes, you’re afraid to try, the people you’re delegating to are going to make a mistake, and you’re going to have to talk to them about that mistake. And not a lot of people have that type of ability to have a restorative, generative conversation with someone who’s made a mistake because they’re feeling bad, right?

Sam Demma
Yep.

Jeff Armour
You feel like you missed a step because you said they did fail. But changing the paradigm of that into a conversation where it’s like, “What did we learn?” And going back to the thing I did on, like, the second week, where I talked about the thing that I failed on—try and mimic that. Like, “Let’s get better together.” That’s a hard thing for people in general to—I mean, it sounds really easy here. I’m, you know, 20 minutes into the podcast or whatever, but like, it’s not easy to do.

Jeff Armour
Those are the conversations. That’s the good stuff in there—is when you can get someone, I think, like I’m trying to do, to press upon people, like, you know, go ahead and make mistakes, and then go and encourage the people that report to you to make mistakes, and then support them in it, right? Those are probably the two things that, like, is a Jeff-ism. And then the one thing is the USC thing—it’s like student-led is a big, important thing.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. The idea of delegation is something that’s very real for me right now. And I’m sure a lot of the school divisions that I serve and support, their leadership teams delegate a lot. And I’ve been working with an assistant for a little while, and I’ve struggled with the delegation situation.

Sam Demma
And I have the best friggin’ team in the world. When things are going great, it’s her. She’s rocking it, you know, and things are not going great, it’s because I’m in my head, and I’m like not sitting in my best position and being a good leader. How did you build that skill yourself? Was it just the repetition of those types of conversations, or what did you find helpful?

Jeff Armour
I think… geez, that’s a great question. I don’t know where that started or when I started to do that. It might have been—we talked about it in the first one, I’m sorry if I’m repeating a little bit—the construction realm.

Sam Demma
Yes.

Jeff Armour
Right, where I had a high expectation of quality, right? And so then what I would do is—funny story, during COVID, we’re at home, and I quickly realized that the school was okay. Everybody was doing the best they could, just homeschooling and all the rest, but the kids weren’t getting the stimulation necessarily at the level that at least my children needed, which was like, “What am I learning that’s new, and how am I interacting with someone getting immediate feedback on whether it’s going well or not?”

Jeff Armour
So for each child, I had a different little thing that I would do with them. Like my youngest, for example, I taught him literally how to make coffee. Like we have a brewer at home where he would put the grind in. So he’s seven years old, eight years old—which is… that’s it. There’s hot water. You got to fill the water up, you got to hit the right buttons, and, you know, make sure it’s not coming out too hard, you know, too stiff or otherwise, it’s the right mix. Taught him how to do it, taught him where the cream was, and to put a little bit of this in and that sort of thing.

Jeff Armour
And so I would just go down, turn my Zoom on at 9:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., whenever the meeting was, and get into it. And so people started to see this seven, eight-year-old bringing me a coffee. And to them, it was like, “What the… what are you doing to him?” He still talks about it today. He still talks about being trusted to do something for Dad, learning how to do it.

Jeff Armour
And he started to get better at it, right? And started to measure the sugar as opposed to just pouring in the sugar and starting to whatever, and then reinforcing that with feedback right away. “That might have been your best one yet. Surprising, because I normally like a lot of cream, but there wasn’t as much, and I didn’t put as much in this time,” right? And the reward that comes from delegation and feedback, positive or negative, and how that fills up the human spirit to continue to try—there’s that word again—I think is an algorithm, a formula that feeds the human soul that makes them want to even do more and more and more, right?

Jeff Armour
Because then the next question was, you know, “Do you want some eggs? Do you want to do this?” And suddenly it starts to grow. And, you know, some people may look at it like, “I was just happy my kid was getting through the day. This was a terrible time for everyone.” I’m like, “Here’s a chance for them—for me—to engage with them as their parent, but also for them to learn and get confident doing things that they wouldn’t normally ever do.” Same principles apply at work. Same thing applied at the construction job.

Jeff Armour
I think that delegation gives the opportunity to fail safely, grow as a team, and, on top of that, have good conversations about what the ultimate why is. Like, where are we going here? Why does Dad want a coffee in the morning? He has a coffee every morning, and if I can do that for him, he can get to work and get on the Zoom later. He might be able to spend more time with me in the morning doing whatever. And those conversations as well. There’s so much good stuff that comes from delegating, in my opinion.

Jeff Armour
It’s scary though, right? Like you’re experiencing it, to your point of, like, “Okay, well…” And also there’s the—I don’t know if you feel guilt about it as well, delegating a little bit.

Sam Demma
I do sometimes feel like it’s irresponsible of me to say, “You do that, not you do this, but can you please help with this?” And it makes me feel… it does make me feel a little guilty, yeah.

Jeff Armour
Because, well, from a selfish perspective, the time it took you to ask, “Hey, I want to move that one o’clock to a two o’clock,” you could have just done it, right? And then you think about how that person is that sees you move it and does it. And suddenly that person has committed their working life to you and being good for you. And suddenly it’s like, “Oh, like, maybe I did that wrong.” And maybe you didn’t catch it because you did it in a moment.

Jeff Armour
But the negative side of not delegating and making sure that that person’s feeling like they’re reaffirmed can also be super damaging. Like it goes both ways. And we don’t think about it that way because we don’t want to bother anyone. I don’t know if that’s Canadian or if that’s just general—the entire world can’t be the Mad Men series where it’s like, “Get me a sandwich.” But there’s some value in actual delegation of a task with some feedback, and I think it’s super important.

Sam Demma
When you are delegating a task, are you front-loading the conversation with “Here’s why”? Like, you know, when you give the example of your son making the coffee, that conversation around “Here’s why we do this” is very helpful because when someone knows why you’re giving them a task and why it matters and it’s important, it’s going to encourage them to feel good about the work they’re doing because it’s serving the greater purpose. But when do you have those conversations in the delegation process?

Jeff Armour
Well, if it’s not obvious, like at the outset—which has become more prevalent here anyways—people will see an opportunity, and often they’re like, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great if I could just do this thing for you, and then you wouldn’t be tied up with it, and we can… you could do that.” That’s happening more and more. But if that isn’t the case, and I’m like, “Hey, so I’ve been thinking about something, and one thing I noticed, you’re way more organized than I am in terms of getting in quicker to do this and that. What’s your bandwidth like right now? Because I think if you can do this thing, that would help me do that thing, and then the two of us would have a much better day. But let’s talk about it,” because getting them to opt into doing the thing is always better.

Jeff Armour
That being said, I think there’s enough understanding and trust in the tank right now that if I was like, “Hey, can you send me those things, and can you do this and this,” people would be like, “100%,” right? Because they know it’s not just because I’m randomly doing whatever. So there’s the two sides of it. It’s like them opting into it but also then building the trust that you’re not asking them to do something that is just, you know, flippant, I guess, is the word. That comes from, like, following up and saying, “Hey, I know I asked you really quickly about putting it in there. Thank you so much because I was running that meeting, and when I got there, I could just open it up and it was there, and it made me better prepared. So I appreciate it.”

Sam Demma
That’s amazing, Jeff. I love this whole conversation. I think we could go on for hours, but I want to respect your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your vulnerability, and just sharing your thoughts on leadership, delegation, and the culture you’ve built at the USC. It’s inspiring. I can’t wait to share this conversation with others, and I look forward to doing it again. Maybe we’ll have a yearly tradition.

Jeff Armour
Thanks so much, Sam. It’s always a pleasure to chat. These conversations challenge my thinking a little bit because sometimes I don’t know why I do things, but I love what I do, and I love making a difference in other people’s lives through sort of giving bits of myself and the opportunity for them to be the best selves that they can be. It’s super rewarding.

Sam Demma
Well, you’re doing it, so keep it up.

Jeff Armour
Thanks.

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January 2, 2025 by Sam Demma Chief Operating Officer Education 0

January 2025

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