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Student Leadership

Jeff Armour – Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University

Jeff Armour – Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University
About Jeff Armour

Jeff Armour is the Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University.  Jeff graduated with a B.Sc. from Western University and after a few years of service overseeing the Wave and Spoke restaurant and bars on campus the USC encouraged Jeff to enroll in the Project Management program through Western’s Continuing Studies. Jeff was subsequently promoted to higher-level leadership position in the organization until ultimately landing at the COO role he currently holds.  Jeff also recently completed his EMBA at Ivey in July 2023.
 
Jeff has an extensive background in strategic planning, project management, operations restructuring and realignment, change management and financial strategy.
 
Jeff is married to Mindy and has three children, Kennedee, Ben and Brad.  He was born in BC but grew up in Peterborough, Jeff moved to London for school at Western and never left. 

Connect with Jeff Armour: Email | Linkedin | Twitter | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

University Students’ Council (USC)
Western University
Ivey

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Jeff Armour. Jeff and I, we met each other a few years ago and we’ve stayed in touch. Personally, I’m super inspired by the Student Union, the USC at Western that they operate and that Jeff organizes and supports.

Sam Demma
And they do incredible things in the post-secondary space. And I’m honored to have Jeff on the show again. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Jeff Armour
Hey, thanks for inviting me. I guess the first one you can get lucky on, the second one means maybe I did something right. So that’s good.

Sam Demma
I really enjoyed the conversation. And I know this is gonna be just as valuable. There’s so many ways we could take this conversation and different things we could talk about. One of the things I’m most inspired about with your leadership at the USC is every team member seems like the most phenomenal human being. I have some of the most memorable experiences working with you and your staff. Where do you find these amazing human beings? How, like, where do they come from?

Jeff Armour
Wow, there’s two different answers there, I think. The one that’s like maybe the romantic answer is, I think setting a culture and having a purpose-driven organization attracts certain people. That, you know, the old adage at McDonald’s where they say there were smiles on the menu and those were free, and they were selling burgers and fries, but what they were really selling was smiles. I think people come here because they know we’re selling smiles to students. So although they might be a great accountant or a great productions person or a great clubs facilitator or even the people in HR, I think everybody rallies behind the idea that we’re trying to make students smile and enhance the educational experience, which is our mission statement.

Jeff Armour
So that’s the cheesy, super inspirational, like “I’ve got it all figured out” answer. The more, maybe more real answer is, I think there’s a certain amount of luck there. There’s a certain amount of strong leadership about, you know, what type of behaviors and what type of people we want to have here, which obviously changes things a little bit. And then the final piece of that is, when you’ve got something good going on, people like to talk to their friends or the other people they work with, and it spreads pretty quickly. So that’s lovely to see when you’re bringing other people into the fold of what you’re doing.

Sam Demma
I think when it comes to teams, the teams that operate really effectively have cohesion and they’re all unified by that single mission or purpose. And they voice their thoughts and their feelings and have these thoughtful disagreements so they can come up with the best ideas and move forward as a committed, I guess, team of people. How do you think about building that team and encouraging cohesion amongst members of the whole organization?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, I think you said it right at the outset, what is ultimately the goal? In a for-profit entity, you get a lot of infighting, I think, because the goal is making money. And sometimes to make money, you’ve got to step on some toes a little bit. And there’s some one-upmanship going on there in competition, which creates perhaps a better value or more profit when you have that sort of infighting.

Jeff Armour
When you’re centered on purpose, and as long as the leader can set a pretty clear goal of, I mean, I guess I just talked about putting smiles on students’ faces, everyone can get behind that. And the one-upmanship is not stepping on other people’s toes, but it’s more like improv: yes and, you know, as opposed to no, but maybe we could do something else. You get a lot of yes ands. “That’s a great idea. And you know what else would be good is this.” So it’s more like piling on in terms of contribution as opposed to ripping it down to try and one-up to make sure that, you know, you get the promotion or the bigger bonus.

Jeff Armour
That is definitely a major focus around here. Failure isn’t the negative. Not trying is the thing we don’t want to see. Just keep trying. You make a mistake, great, we won’t have to make that one again. That’s another one off the list. So it creates a good environment where everyone wants to jump in and see what other ideas they’ve got or, you know, kind of do the yes and.

Sam Demma
I was recently golfing with my godfather and he’s a big reader of books, and he told me to check out this book called Principles by Ray Dalio. And it was all about his life and work principles that he had operated on for a long time. And one of them was, “We celebrate mistakes but don’t tolerate not learning from them.” They had this software in his organization called the issue log. And every time you made a mistake, it was your responsibility to log it and to share it.

Sam Demma
So you put the date and the time and the mistake you made, and the next sync with the whole team, you would talk about it openly so that everyone could learn from the same mistake that just one person made, and then talk about how to avoid it moving forward. And when you’re talking about celebrating mistakes, that whole idea came to mind. How did you build that culture of celebrating mistakes? Is it something similar? Or like, what did you do?

Jeff Armour
It’s just funny because when I took on this role as the COO, formerly the general manager, we were very, very siloed. So no one wanted to talk about their mistakes, right? Despite the immense amount of value. And so because of that, there was no history written. And because of that, we were destined to make the same mistakes over and over again, which is exactly what we were doing. Which was creating a lot of frustration in people that wanted to be here and improve on it and build towards those smiles and great experiences.

Jeff Armour
It was like, “But why are we… like I get it, but why are we… like I’ll try. You’re paying me. Why are we doing the same thing again? I have this other idea. If we could have just turned that one thing and made it better.” And I’m kind of blowing it here, but when I first took on the role, there’s many things that I did, starting with, like, I reintroduced myself to the team. Like literally did a PowerPoint and said, like, “You’ve known me because I was here for probably 15 years before that and reintroduced myself to the team, my senior management team, and basically said, so, you know Jeff, but you don’t, you don’t know Jeff.”

Jeff Armour
The next thing I did was quietly without labeling it—because I like that—what did you call it? A log of…

Sam Demma
They called it the issues log.

Jeff Armour
Issues log. So I was regularly having meetings as I started to do some change management on the culture of our team—not change management like we’re getting into new products or whatever—it was more of culture change. And I would strategically every other meeting or every, you know, I tried to make it not rhythmic so people started to pick up on it. But I talk about, like, one of the mistakes I made early on. Like, “Oh, coming in this job, I know I, and I made this, I did this thing or whatever.” And what started to happen was they would laugh along with me. But not only that, contribute to ideas of how we could avoid that in the future.

Jeff Armour
And I say I’m kind of letting the lid off this because some of them will, if they hear this, will be like, “Wait, you were doing that on purpose?” Like, I don’t want to make it seem like it was contrived, but really, we weren’t talking about our failures. And when I say failures, I mean, like, it’s a chance to learn or otherwise. So instead, what we would do is someone who you would think would have no opinion on an item—let’s say it was something that we made a mistake in budget—and then someone who’s nowhere near the budget process would be like, “Why didn’t you just ask us about what we were going to… like, that would have helped you avoid that mistake three months later.”

Jeff Armour
And I was like, “Oh, that’s… you know, write it down. Then you make sure you follow up.” Then you start to… and suddenly people can see that change and improvement on mistakes. But not only that, subconsciously, they’re thinking, it’s OK if I bring up a mistake I made. Maybe other people have good ideas because no one’s ever asked me about the budget thing. And now I was able to contribute to a positive outcome, right? It’s like teaching. It’s like a learned behavior that you’re not explicitly teaching them about. Because if I came out and said, “We’re going to…,” they’d be like, “Oh, great. He’s read some books, and he’s trying to… whatever.” Instead, it was like mimicking the behaviors I wanted to see the entire corporation do, like everybody, right down to the person who’s cutting the bagel being like, “Why do we cut the bagels before the person orders it? Like, it takes three seconds, and if we had one of these little machines, we could just…” Great, let’s hear about that.

Jeff Armour
And no one should have their feelings hurt. You should have your feelings hurt if you’re not listening, or you continue to not learn from it—not by not trying, right? It’s just the effort that counts. So the reason I was smiling when you asked the question is because it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to have to tell them the truth, and it’s going to probably be a little whistleblower here on my behaviors,” but yeah.

Sam Demma
Well, I think at the end of the day, it also gives other people permission, like you said, to voice their mistakes. Like you’re actually, as the leader, leading with vulnerability by saying, “Here’s a mistake I made.” And that vulnerability you’re leading with is allowing other people at the table to say, “Hey, it’s OK to be vulnerable.”

Sam Demma
Because if Jeff’s leading us and Jeff’s being vulnerable, so can I. Do you think it’s really important that you did that first? Like if you didn’t share, do you think other people would have shared, or would it have taken a much longer time for that to unfold?

Jeff Armour
I think, yeah, it definitely would have taken longer for it to unfold. Yeah, that’s… I think that’s fair to say. I think I’ve also always just been a person that, like, if I’m going to ask you to do it, I better do it first. Like literally in, like, physical actions. Like if I’m telling you to move that pile of dirt over there, I better be the first person to put the shovel in the ground and, like, to help move the dirt. And then, you know, I always prefer when people that I’m working with or that, you know, are trying to buy into something to be like, “Hey, I’ve got this dirt thing. Why don’t you go over there and start to build that wall so then I can come over and paint,” you know, or otherwise.

Jeff Armour
Like once they can see why they’re doing something and how they fit into the bigger picture, to start to push leadership or someone who’s helping them into where they should be is way better than saying, “I’m in leadership. Do as I say and, like, figure it out on your own.” I don’t know, it just feels like that’s… I don’t know, yucky, kind of condescending, or I don’t know, more like a boss, right?

Sam Demma
Do you trust your intuition and gut on a lot of the decisions you make, or do you have principles or, like, certain guardrails that you think about before you make a decision?

Jeff Armour
Yeah. I’m learning to trust that more.

Sam Demma
Yeah.

Jeff Armour
Here I am at my age now, where I’m at in my career. And we actually, just last week, did StrengthsFinder with the senior leadership team here, the senior managers we’ve got. And my strengths, which make me uncomfortable—and I don’t think I’m sharing that out of turn—they make me uncomfortable because they’re kind of like traditional, hard strengths I’m not super comfortable with.

Jeff Armour
However, because of that, I haven’t really trusted it in the past, which I think has made me more of an authentic leader. Like that kind of… Are you familiar with the Gallup StrengthsFinder stuff?

Sam Demma
I don’t know too much about it, other than it’s like similar to other personality tests to figure out how people can deal with one another, understand how they operate. That’s why—but I could be wrong.

Jeff Armour
No, no, that’s basically it. I mean, the only real big difference is it’s a Gallup-founded test, which means there’s like a hundred billion data points that Gallup has because they do surveys all the time. So it’s like really… And it’s shocking how close it is. It’s amazing insights. So yeah, to get back to the question of, like, do I trust it? I don’t, but I think that’s actually what makes me good.

Jeff Armour
I’m naturally a pessimist with a very strong optimistic outlook. I can see the negative side, but I’m always like, there’s this terrible thing that could happen, but you know what? It’s going to be awesome. So I’m literally built to prepare for the worst and plan for the best. Like it’s ingrained in my DNA to actually do that. So yeah, I don’t really trust… I really trust the people that are around me. If I’m half-hearted into something or they’re not sure if I’m sure, they’ll either give me the resolve or push me a little bit to get to that solid place because I think they trust my instincts more than I trust my own.

Sam Demma
It’s probably not a good answer, but I mean, that’s the truth—is I’m a little cautious with my gut.

Jeff Armour
I think that that’s so important. I think it’s one of the reasons why the organization, the USC, succeeds because if you do just consistently put your eggs in one basket and you feel like, “This is the best decision ever, we’re doing the right thing,” and you don’t ever think, “Well, what if we could be wrong?” you might have some blind spots, and you overcommit too many times. Things can fall apart. Who do you ask, or, like, how do you ask when you have those thoughts?

Jeff Armour
I think the best part about it now, where we’re at, initially I had sort of a small group of people that knew me and knew who I was that I could be not just vulnerable with, but, like, weak. Quite literally just be like, “This is tough.” And early on in the job, there were several things that tested my resolve. And then, you know, middle of the bell curve was COVID, which again, tested things.

Jeff Armour
And in the first chat we had, we talked about my decision to bring everybody back in full. There was no hybrid, which now, I guess, it’s been two years since we did that podcast, I think, or a year or whatever. It’s just showing in droves how great the culture is here. And there’s no group at home and group at work and all of that. Great for… we’re really, like, for the listeners here, we’re really an in-person impact. Like the student walks into your office and says, “Hey, I need some help.” Really hard to schedule a Zoom with people when they’re just walking in. You know, you can’t predict when it’s going to happen. It’s kind of like, you know…

Jeff Armour
So yeah, that’s sort of when I started to realize that my gut instinct was probably pretty strong because I ask a lot of questions. I’m, I think, a good listener. I know where we want to go to. And so what happens is every interaction I have, whether it’s just walking through the halls or otherwise, goes into my brain, unfortunately. It doesn’t add stress to me, but it adds data points. And those data points help me formulate an opinion that makes my gut call a little bit stronger.

Jeff Armour
And this is all stuff that I’ve learned over the last, probably even like last two months as we’ve really gotten into the StrengthsFinder stuff and realized that that is the way I operate. I used to be afraid of it because I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand where that gut… like, nobody just has gut instincts like that. The gut instinct comes from like listening and actively challenging, but also being a pessimist and looking out for the worst, but also hoping for the best. So all those things come together to make it, yeah, what I use.

Jeff Armour
Small group initially, and now I don’t even have to ask for opinions when I’m looking at making a decision or there’s something that’s challenging the group. Everyone feels very comfortable walking into my door and just being like, “Hey, I know this is a problem we’ve got, and I wonder if this would help. I found this article, and here you go. Do you want to read it?” And then you can go even deeper, like, “Oh, interesting, what kind of triggered you? Like, what made you resonate with this challenge that we’re facing?” And it’s like, “Well, I think it’s really important because I see every single day X, Y, and Z.” More data points to go in for the analytical, more information, more comfort with talking to what, in a traditional model, would be like the leadership.

Jeff Armour
And I use that loosely. Because I don’t necessarily believe in, like, there’s got to be one boss. I believe, like, the hive mind works to a certain extent, but at some point, someone has to make a decision, and I get that, right? So I really encourage that. And I think the open-door policy and willingness to listen, and not being afraid that someone has a different opinion than I do, and that means I’m not going to make a decision because they differ with it. I’m great with that because it’s just more data points, right?

Sam Demma
I mean, you’re sharing principles with me right now, like, you know, plan for the worst, but expect the best. The open-door policy, gather information, you know, be a good listener to make the best-informed decision. If I was to chat with members of the USC, other people on the team, and sit them down and say, “What does Jeff say to you most often?” Like, if you were to tell me, “These are Jeff’s, like, maybe not just Jeff’s, but these are the USC’s values or principles and things that we hear over and over and over again,” what are a few of those things or some that stick out in your mind that you think they’d share with me?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, some are very USC-specific, that were student-led. Yep. Which, that’s a value we hold—that at the end of the day, there should be a student at the table. I’m not just talking about the president—obviously, the president—but like a student. So if you’re making decisions around clubs, there should be members from the club system involved in making that decision, right? Because they know better than we do.

Jeff Armour
That’s the best way to protect against aging out in an organization that essentially—we’re vampire keepers. The vampires stay 22, 20 years old, and we get older and older, and they stay the same age, right? So the best way to insulate against that is to get as many of them around the table to make the decisions and help you with it. So that’s a big principle that used to scare us. Any student association, I think, would be scared because it’s like, “Wow, I personally am getting out of touch with what that generation wants.” Right? I don’t know what skibbity bathwater means. I don’t understand. Like, it was a couple of years ago.

Jeff Armour
But I don’t have to keep up with that. And the reason I know those words is because there are students around me all the time who are open to sharing with me, just like the clubs’ decision, just like if there’s something that’s going on around designing our menu. Don’t ask someone who’s 45 what they want on the menu because they want nachos and chicken wings, which I definitely want. But maybe the bowls are really hot, or maybe having halal chicken is really important to a large chunk of our… So all those things—students around the table. That’s the USC sort of thing—is that we’re student-led, OK?

Jeff Armour
For me personally, there are two things that are very important, and that is trying. I want to see people trying all the time because I believe that’s where the good stuff happens. Keep trying. I’ve already said it to you earlier on in the interview. You can see that they will hear that. And then from the management leadership realm, it’s delegate, right? Great. You’re great at that. Delegate it. Because I’ve got other stuff that I want to delegate to you. Delegate, delegate.

Sam Demma
And what would be the fear with delegating?

Jeff Armour
That they’re not going to do a good job, or it’s going to get done wrong.

Sam Demma
I still feel it. How do you—like, tell me more.

Jeff Armour
And so then they’re going to… Not just you making mistakes, you’re afraid to try, the people you’re delegating to are going to make a mistake, and you’re going to have to talk to them about that mistake. And not a lot of people have that type of ability to have a restorative, generative conversation with someone who’s made a mistake because they’re feeling bad, right?

Sam Demma
Yep.

Jeff Armour
You feel like you missed a step because you said they did fail. But changing the paradigm of that into a conversation where it’s like, “What did we learn?” And going back to the thing I did on, like, the second week, where I talked about the thing that I failed on—try and mimic that. Like, “Let’s get better together.” That’s a hard thing for people in general to—I mean, it sounds really easy here. I’m, you know, 20 minutes into the podcast or whatever, but like, it’s not easy to do.

Jeff Armour
Those are the conversations. That’s the good stuff in there—is when you can get someone, I think, like I’m trying to do, to press upon people, like, you know, go ahead and make mistakes, and then go and encourage the people that report to you to make mistakes, and then support them in it, right? Those are probably the two things that, like, is a Jeff-ism. And then the one thing is the USC thing—it’s like student-led is a big, important thing.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. The idea of delegation is something that’s very real for me right now. And I’m sure a lot of the school divisions that I serve and support, their leadership teams delegate a lot. And I’ve been working with an assistant for a little while, and I’ve struggled with the delegation situation.

Sam Demma
And I have the best friggin’ team in the world. When things are going great, it’s her. She’s rocking it, you know, and things are not going great, it’s because I’m in my head, and I’m like not sitting in my best position and being a good leader. How did you build that skill yourself? Was it just the repetition of those types of conversations, or what did you find helpful?

Jeff Armour
I think… geez, that’s a great question. I don’t know where that started or when I started to do that. It might have been—we talked about it in the first one, I’m sorry if I’m repeating a little bit—the construction realm.

Sam Demma
Yes.

Jeff Armour
Right, where I had a high expectation of quality, right? And so then what I would do is—funny story, during COVID, we’re at home, and I quickly realized that the school was okay. Everybody was doing the best they could, just homeschooling and all the rest, but the kids weren’t getting the stimulation necessarily at the level that at least my children needed, which was like, “What am I learning that’s new, and how am I interacting with someone getting immediate feedback on whether it’s going well or not?”

Jeff Armour
So for each child, I had a different little thing that I would do with them. Like my youngest, for example, I taught him literally how to make coffee. Like we have a brewer at home where he would put the grind in. So he’s seven years old, eight years old—which is… that’s it. There’s hot water. You got to fill the water up, you got to hit the right buttons, and, you know, make sure it’s not coming out too hard, you know, too stiff or otherwise, it’s the right mix. Taught him how to do it, taught him where the cream was, and to put a little bit of this in and that sort of thing.

Jeff Armour
And so I would just go down, turn my Zoom on at 9:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., whenever the meeting was, and get into it. And so people started to see this seven, eight-year-old bringing me a coffee. And to them, it was like, “What the… what are you doing to him?” He still talks about it today. He still talks about being trusted to do something for Dad, learning how to do it.

Jeff Armour
And he started to get better at it, right? And started to measure the sugar as opposed to just pouring in the sugar and starting to whatever, and then reinforcing that with feedback right away. “That might have been your best one yet. Surprising, because I normally like a lot of cream, but there wasn’t as much, and I didn’t put as much in this time,” right? And the reward that comes from delegation and feedback, positive or negative, and how that fills up the human spirit to continue to try—there’s that word again—I think is an algorithm, a formula that feeds the human soul that makes them want to even do more and more and more, right?

Jeff Armour
Because then the next question was, you know, “Do you want some eggs? Do you want to do this?” And suddenly it starts to grow. And, you know, some people may look at it like, “I was just happy my kid was getting through the day. This was a terrible time for everyone.” I’m like, “Here’s a chance for them—for me—to engage with them as their parent, but also for them to learn and get confident doing things that they wouldn’t normally ever do.” Same principles apply at work. Same thing applied at the construction job.

Jeff Armour
I think that delegation gives the opportunity to fail safely, grow as a team, and, on top of that, have good conversations about what the ultimate why is. Like, where are we going here? Why does Dad want a coffee in the morning? He has a coffee every morning, and if I can do that for him, he can get to work and get on the Zoom later. He might be able to spend more time with me in the morning doing whatever. And those conversations as well. There’s so much good stuff that comes from delegating, in my opinion.

Jeff Armour
It’s scary though, right? Like you’re experiencing it, to your point of, like, “Okay, well…” And also there’s the—I don’t know if you feel guilt about it as well, delegating a little bit.

Sam Demma
I do sometimes feel like it’s irresponsible of me to say, “You do that, not you do this, but can you please help with this?” And it makes me feel… it does make me feel a little guilty, yeah.

Jeff Armour
Because, well, from a selfish perspective, the time it took you to ask, “Hey, I want to move that one o’clock to a two o’clock,” you could have just done it, right? And then you think about how that person is that sees you move it and does it. And suddenly that person has committed their working life to you and being good for you. And suddenly it’s like, “Oh, like, maybe I did that wrong.” And maybe you didn’t catch it because you did it in a moment.

Jeff Armour
But the negative side of not delegating and making sure that that person’s feeling like they’re reaffirmed can also be super damaging. Like it goes both ways. And we don’t think about it that way because we don’t want to bother anyone. I don’t know if that’s Canadian or if that’s just general—the entire world can’t be the Mad Men series where it’s like, “Get me a sandwich.” But there’s some value in actual delegation of a task with some feedback, and I think it’s super important.

Sam Demma
When you are delegating a task, are you front-loading the conversation with “Here’s why”? Like, you know, when you give the example of your son making the coffee, that conversation around “Here’s why we do this” is very helpful because when someone knows why you’re giving them a task and why it matters and it’s important, it’s going to encourage them to feel good about the work they’re doing because it’s serving the greater purpose. But when do you have those conversations in the delegation process?

Jeff Armour
Well, if it’s not obvious, like at the outset—which has become more prevalent here anyways—people will see an opportunity, and often they’re like, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great if I could just do this thing for you, and then you wouldn’t be tied up with it, and we can… you could do that.” That’s happening more and more. But if that isn’t the case, and I’m like, “Hey, so I’ve been thinking about something, and one thing I noticed, you’re way more organized than I am in terms of getting in quicker to do this and that. What’s your bandwidth like right now? Because I think if you can do this thing, that would help me do that thing, and then the two of us would have a much better day. But let’s talk about it,” because getting them to opt into doing the thing is always better.

Jeff Armour
That being said, I think there’s enough understanding and trust in the tank right now that if I was like, “Hey, can you send me those things, and can you do this and this,” people would be like, “100%,” right? Because they know it’s not just because I’m randomly doing whatever. So there’s the two sides of it. It’s like them opting into it but also then building the trust that you’re not asking them to do something that is just, you know, flippant, I guess, is the word. That comes from, like, following up and saying, “Hey, I know I asked you really quickly about putting it in there. Thank you so much because I was running that meeting, and when I got there, I could just open it up and it was there, and it made me better prepared. So I appreciate it.”

Sam Demma
That’s amazing, Jeff. I love this whole conversation. I think we could go on for hours, but I want to respect your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your vulnerability, and just sharing your thoughts on leadership, delegation, and the culture you’ve built at the USC. It’s inspiring. I can’t wait to share this conversation with others, and I look forward to doing it again. Maybe we’ll have a yearly tradition.

Jeff Armour
Thanks so much, Sam. It’s always a pleasure to chat. These conversations challenge my thinking a little bit because sometimes I don’t know why I do things, but I love what I do, and I love making a difference in other people’s lives through sort of giving bits of myself and the opportunity for them to be the best selves that they can be. It’s super rewarding.

Sam Demma
Well, you’re doing it, so keep it up.

Jeff Armour
Thanks.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Jeff Armour

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January 2, 2025 by Chief Operating Officer Education 0

Kristan McTernan – Vice Principal at the Toronto Catholic District School

Kristan McTernan – Vice Principal at the Toronto Catholic District School
About Kristan McTernan

Kristan McTernan is a Vice Principal with the Toronto Catholic District School. Prior to becoming a vice principal, she was a teacher for over a decade specializing in teaching English, Special Education and ESL. Highlights of her teaching career include leading the team that won a 2022 TCDSB Exemplary Practice Award for expanding the House System and establishing a mentorship program at Brebeuf College School. In the same year, she was awarded the Toronto Secondary Unit’s Status of Women Committee Exceptional Teacher Award for her efforts both inside and outside the classroom. Forming relationships with staff and students through various extracurricular activities, from coaching swimming, and moderating Student Council to organizing Grade 9 Orientation and Grade 12 Graduation make up some of the most memorable experiences of her teaching career.  As a high school administrator, Kristan is passionate about supporting all students by thinking creatively about “outside the bell”  solutions to address challenges to student success. She credits her willingness to think “outside the bell” with the fact that all her experiences in high schools thus far have been in specialized learning environments. Not only is she a Mary Ward Catholic Secondary School Centre for Self-Directed Learning alum, but she also taught at Brebeuf College, a single-gendered all-boys school, and is now a vice principal at Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts.  Throughout her career, Kristan has developed a passion for equity in education, with a focus on BIPOC representation in leadership. She is currently a mentor and one of the committee members of the TCDSB’s Racialized Administrators Mentorship Program. The goal of the program is to provide information, guidance and mentorship to BIPOC educators who may be interested in becoming an administrator. At both the board and school level, she continues to share her experiences as a black woman, black educator and immigrant to Canada proudly raised in Scarborough to further the positive impact of the TCDSB’s robust Equity Plan on the lives of students and their families.   Outside of school, Kristan is a proud mother of two boys aged 7 and 10. She raises her sons with her husband who is also a TCDSB administrator, which makes for colourful discussions at the dinner table. Formula 1 Racing rounds out the top three things Kristan is passionate about, just below her family and her school community.

Connect with Kristan McTernan: Email

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Toronto Catholic District School
Mary Ward Catholic Secondary School Centre
Brebeuf College
Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we’re joined with a very special guest. Kristan Mcternan is a vice principal with the Toronto Catholic District School Board. She and I met less than a year ago, collaborating on an event. And I’m so honored to have her on the show today.

Sam Demma
Kristan, please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Kristan McTernan
Yeah, so that’s pretty much me in a nutshell right there. I’m Vice Principal of the Toronto Catholic District School Board. I have the pleasure of being the Vice Principal of Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts. I have been a Vice Principal for about two years, going into my third year. Before that, I was a teacher at Braybuff College for 14 and a half glorious years. And so, yeah, now I come to Cardinal Carter as a vice principal and just embracing what this role brings.

Sam Demma
Did you know you wanted to work in education, or what did your own pathway look like as a student?

Kristan McTernan
Education, yeah, I knew because I think it was in my blood. The path really started with my parents. Both my parents are educators. My dad retired. My mom is still a special education teacher. But when we moved here from Trinidad when I was five, I really watched them fight to get back to the classroom. They needed to get recertified and get some things in order, and that took a while. While they were working and transitioning into being Canadian citizens with two young children, they were also studying and getting themselves certified. I saw that passion they had for teaching, and when they finally got back into the classroom, it really resonated with me.

In the meantime, I was that kid who would line up all my teddy bears, give them little handouts, and decorate a wall in my room as a bulletin board. I’d change it up every so often to reflect themes or different seasons because I really wanted to emulate my parents and their love for education. That carried me to high school, where I had great teachers in both elementary and high school. At Holy Spirit in Scarborough, I was a student from JK to grade eight, and then I went to Mary Ward, which gave me a unique perspective on education because it’s a self-directed learning center.

Kristan McTernan
And while I was doing that, I got involved in working with Toronto Parks and Recreation, now called Toronto Parks, Recreation, and Culture, in the camps. That sparked it for me. I knew I wanted to be a teacher as soon as I got there. Before, I felt it, but when I started working with kids through camps, working my way up from an assistant leader to an area coordinator managing a group of camps, I fell in love. So, when I went to university, I took a psychology course, focusing on education. I did a double major in English and Criminology and a minor in History. I thought for a hot second that maybe I wanted to do law.

Kristan McTernan
But a teacher told me, “You want to work with youth. Do you want to work with them after they’re in the system, or do you want to reach them before they enter the system?” I said, “No, I want to work with them before.” And that was it. I did Teachers College and all the good things that led to this point. So, yeah, I think it was in my blood, starting with my parents.

Sam Demma
Cardinal Carter has one of the best art programs and facilities in the board. Is there a connection to arts in your own life that inspired you to be at this school, or was it luck of the draw that you ended up here?

Kristan McTernan
Well, it’s luck of the draw. Even though I had a brief foray as a saxophonist in elementary and high school, I wouldn’t say I have a musical background or a background in the arts. That allows me to be the biggest fangirl of all the arts in our school. I’m loving the drama, music, dance, and visual arts. I’m loving all of it. I can just be an amazing fan for the students because I don’t come to it with my own background in the arts.

Sam Demma
I was blown away by the amount of student art on the walls and just the energy of the students. It was such a welcoming space. What are the values that you and your team and the staff try to instill in the students? What is the culture you’re striving to build? Because it’s very apparent that when you walk in, it has a really welcoming feeling.

Kristan McTernan
Oh, it’s amazing to know that it’s coming across to visitors in our school. We are very much working with artists, and as a staff, we’ve talked a lot about the unique struggles for students who are artists, who have this creative mindset. Instead of focusing on expectations and being creative, they already come with that. What we strive to do is help them have balance—to celebrate their successes, to understand that failure is only part of the journey, and to provide them with a counter perspective than what they come with.

Kristan McTernan
That’s what we do at our school—to build community among the different art areas and bring students together across the art areas to embrace the experience of being a student. Balance in life, mental health, and well-being are just as important as creativity and being the best you can be. Our students tend to come with that, and we just provide the other perspectives to help them live a really balanced life and be their own best selves.

Sam Demma
When it comes to building connections or relationships with students, building rapport, how do you go about doing that as an adult?

Kristan McTernan
Once, when I was a teacher, someone came to me and said, “You have this way of joking around, but you’re not messing around.” I’ve tried to embody that. I want students to see me as a person, someone who cares about them first and foremost. Yes, there are things I need to enforce, but beyond all that, I care about their growth. I’m willing to break down my own walls, share my own experiences, and even share my own mistakes with them.

Kristan McTernan
I tell them, “I’ve been a student longer than I’ve been a teacher or an educator. I’m telling you this because I want the best for you.” When students see that, it’s the easiest way to build that relationship because they know I’m genuine. They’re willing to share their successes and fears, struggles and triumphs. That’s been the key to building those relationships as a teacher and now as a vice principal.

Sam Demma
That phrase, “I’m joking around, but I’m not messing around”—that’s gold right there.

Kristan McTernan
Well, I have to give credit to the person who said it first. His name’s Dave. Early in my career, he said that, and I ran with it.

Sam Demma
When you think about interactions you have with young people that have left them better than you found them, do any stories of impact come to mind? I ask because a lot of educators got into this field to make a difference, but sometimes they don’t hear about their impact until years later when a student bumps into them at the grocery store and says, “Miss, you changed my life.”

Kristan McTernan
I see it every day. At any given moment, I have students who need me. Even their growth from when I got to the school to now has been amazing. For example, attendance is a big piece. When a student says, “Miss, I didn’t skip today,” that’s a badge of honor. And I’m like, “Yes, amazing!” Celebrating those accomplishments with them is huge.

Kristan McTernan
As a teacher, I’ve had impactful moments too. I had a student who sent me pictures of his newborn son. When students come back and want to interact with you in their adult life, you know you’ve done something right. Those are the moments I carry with me—every time a student comes back to visit and tells me what’s happening in their in their lives is amazing.

Sam Demma
Who have been some of the impactful mentors in your own life or people that support you as a vice principal, as a teacher, that without them, you know, you think, gosh, life or the way I approach things would have been very different.

Kristan McTernan
I have, I’m like going, thinking about my journey of getting to education, I can name them as we go from stage to stage. As I said, my parents, first and foremost, and see, like, I would say, my mom is one of the most incredible educators I’ve ever met. I’ve seen kids that have been written off and my mom’s like, in her Trinidadian accent, no, we’re gonna work with this kid today, like that is happening.

That persistent attitude, that determination that no kid is going to be left behind, and every kid is worthy of growth and accomplishment, I get from her. When I was in elementary school, I had two amazing teachers, Ms. Bailey and Ms. Kudo, who showed me what it was for a teacher to care about a kid outside of the classroom.

When my parents dropped me off early in the morning, and it was really cold—we’re from Trinidad, I wasn’t used to this—Ms. Bailey took me to her class and allowed me to stay there. She would help me with my work. She had high standards, but she was willing to help me reach them and to care about me and my family.

She actually was a person I turned to when I was becoming a teacher to help me with the interview process and all that. She’s never given up on me. At Mary Ward, we have something called a teacher advisor. They are a teacher who actually doesn’t teach you—or they may teach you, but they don’t have to—that sees you every single day of your high school career. They see you in the morning, at lunch, and in the afternoon, tracking your progress and talking with your parents.

For me, it was Miss Earl. She was an amazing example of how a teacher goes beyond curriculum. A teacher cares about kids. She cared about me and kept me on the straight and narrow. My mom did it at home, and I knew Miss Earl would do it at school.

I also had a teacher named Mr. Wetzel who taught me that teaching is about helping students see the curriculum and engage in it beyond just the right answer. It was about what I could prove was the right answer, and that’s why I got into English.

Right now, I have a current mentor, my principal, Linton Soares. Yes, you met him when you came over. He’s a great mentor. He’s helping me take those values I had as a teacher, align them with his values, and bring that forward into this role. He helps me stay true to why I got into this in the first place, so it doesn’t get lost in the everyday tasks of running a school.

Sam Demma
It’s awesome that you can name these people one by one based on the stages of your life. I’m fortunate that I’ve had so many mentors myself, and I think about it all the time, like, thank God for putting these people in my life because they all seem to come at the perfect times when I needed them most.

We met in the most weird, coincidental ways. And I just know that if I didn’t have those people, my own values and the way I show up and the decisions I made would have likely been very different. So it’s nice to pay homage to some of those people. And if they listen to this, y’all just know that Kristan and I appreciate you big time.

Sam Demma
The start of the school year is no joke for a lot of educators because they just finished this two-month break. They’re excited, but sometimes they jump in, and it’s like, whoa, super overwhelming—there’s so much going on. How do you make that transition every year from summertime to another school year?

Is there any rituals that you have? Or like, you know, as a soccer player, I would always have these pregame routines, and I feel like the last week of August is pregame. What does your pregame look like?

Kristan McTernan
My pregame looks like first hanging on to every minute of the summer that I can before I have to let go. Just savoring every single minute of it so that I know when it’s time to get back into it, I’m ready. I think of it as Happy New Year.

Everybody celebrates January 1st, but Happy New Year for educators is the Tuesday after Labor Day. That comes with resolutions: self-reflection, what do I want to do differently this year? What were my successes last year? What do I need to do differently? What do I need to put in place to make that happen?

Every year, I go into it with the goal of finishing the way I started, finishing with the energy and perspectives I had at the beginning. Whatever I put in place to revise my practices leads to an even more successful outcome.

The job can be very draining—we put so much of ourselves into it. So, I want to create balance and be effective. My resolutions are often about that. I know my weaknesses, like organization. Sometimes I have to fake it till I make it, and it usually involves a lot of Amazon purchases, like a new agenda book. I can’t take my old habits into the new year!

A few new wardrobe pieces also help me feel ready to tackle a new year. I want to make sure that by the end of the year, I’ve done everything I set out to accomplish and made the most of the time with my family.

Sam Demma
I think that’s such a key reminder to be present wherever you are. Jim Rohn, a speaker who’s been very influential for me, said, “When you work, work. When you play, play. Don’t be at the beach thinking about work, and don’t be at work thinking about the beach.”

You ruin both experiences that way. When you’re at the beach, be at the beach. When you’re at work, be at work. That’s the sentiment you just shared. It’s something I need to hear right now because I’m always living in the future or thinking about the past, forgetting about the moment we have—right now.

Kristan McTernan
Exactly. There are only a finite number of summer days in my life, but there are also only a finite number of days in my career. So, I’m going to maximize all of it for what it is.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today.

Kristan McTernan
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast!

Sam Demma
I hope the academic year this year is phenomenal, and I look forward to crossing paths again soon.

Kristan McTernan
Thank you so much.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Kristan McTernan

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 31, 2024 by Administrative Support Education Educator Principals Student Leadership Student Success 0

Natalie Fisher – Manager of Student Services at the Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA) at Mohawk College

Natalie Fisher – Manager of Student Services at the Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA) at Mohawk College
About Natalie Fisher

Natalie Fisher is the Manager of Student Services at the Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA) at Mohawk College, where she has dedicated the last seven years of her career. For the past two years, she has taken on the pivotal role of Manager, where she focuses on fostering student success and well-being within a diverse community. As a proud Mohawk alumnus and former member of the varsity women’s basketball team, Natalie brings a unique perspective to her role. Through her commitment to providing essential and barrier-free services, Natalie significantly enhances the college experience for students every day.

Recognized for her contributions, Natalie was nominated for the 2019 Women of Distinction Award by the YWCA – Hamilton, highlighting her impact and leadership in the community.

Outside of her professional responsibilities, Natalie passionately volunteers as a basketball coach for the Special Olympics in West Niagara, a role she has embraced for over eight years. Her dedication to both her work and volunteer efforts exemplifies her commitment to making a positive difference in the lives of others.

Connect with Natalie Fisher: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA)
Mohawk College
YWCA – Hamilton
Special Olympics in West Niagara

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by a very special guest, a good friend, volleyball coach, Natalie Fisher.

Natalie Fisher
Hey, what’s going on?

Sam Demma
Nat, thanks so much for coming on the show. Please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Natalie Fisher
Hey, I’m Natalie Fisher. I am the manager of student services at the Mohawk Student Association at Mohawk College.

Sam Demma
You’ve been there for how many years now? Seven. Seven years. And what got you involved or interested in serving young people and working in education?

Natalie Fisher
So I didn’t go to school. I feel like I’ve been at Mohawk my whole life. I went to school here. I took two programs. So I feel like this is my second home. But I really just wanted to make a difference, make an impact on students’ lives. So I worked as a student here on the campus and then I kind of worked my way once I graduated up into the role I have today, whether it was at a satellite campus or here at the main campus and then obviously in different roles but in student services. So this is my passion.

Sam Demma
The college couldn’t get rid of you even if they wanted to.

Natalie Fisher
They really couldn’t. They really couldn’t. I was a student, I was an employee, and then I was a varsity athlete. So I kind of hit all the areas here. So yeah, they are probably sick of me at this point.

Sam Demma
When you were a high school student growing up, did you know you wanted to work in education? Or what was your career path that brought you here?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, so when I was in high school, talking with the guidance counselor, I wanted to be a teacher at the beginning. So I guess kind of with young adults, but then I wanted to be a nurse. So in my first year out of high school, I actually took nursing. And I didn’t love it. I didn’t like, I don’t know, I was a varsity athlete. I was from a small town. Coming into Hamilton was a huge culture shock for me. So it was a rough first year of post-secondary.

But then I kind of made my path a different way. And I did health wellness and fitness and then I did occupation physiotherapy. So that’s kind of how I came to where I am. And then I found a job within the OTA program field, but I found myself working a part-time job so then I worked at the college and then it all came into fruition where I am now.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome.

Sam Demma
Did you have educators in your life or coaches that kind of shed a light on good mentorship for young people that inspired you to get into this? Or, tell me some of the role models in your life.

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, absolutely. I can think of one, like, at the top of my head. Her name is Kelly Denham. She was a basketball coach when I played here. She worked in the alumni department at the time, and she also coached basketball in the community. So she kind of really was a role model in my life in terms of like just giving back to people and making an impact on young girls in the community as well.

So she was probably my biggest role model once I hit the college era of my time. She unfortunately has passed away. She got cancer during COVID but she will always have a special place in my heart and I will always remember her life lessons that she showed me, whether it was on the court, going through resilience and adversity as an athlete, as a student-athlete, and then giving back to the community, working with other people.

She’s really probably why I am where I am today, just in terms of the mentorship that she gave me and the advice that she’s given me. So she is a huge part of where I am and why I am the person I am.

Sam Demma
Oh, I’m so sorry about the passing. And I appreciate you sharing. I can think of some of the mentors I’ve had in my life that have had a similar impact as the one you’re describing that Kelly’s had on you. What do you think it is that she did? Or how did she show up that it really helped you?

Natalie Fisher
I think she also, she put me first and I am also that type of person. She had a family, she had two kids, so she always would see me at practice and like see that I was dragging my butt, like I was tired, I was like not struggling with school, but it was a lot coming out of high school and for you to go from like high school from a small town to a bigger city and post-secondary, it can be overwhelming at times.

And I think that the constant support and the constant of her putting me first before herself and her family was a huge thing that I was so grateful for. She offered her couch at one point because it was a snowstorm and I lived 30 minutes away from campus. So those small little things really made me be so grateful of those things that other people do in life.

The smallest things that we do for other people or even in my job, she makes a huge difference in people’s lives, and I think that’s why I appreciated her so much. Because the little things made a huge difference at the time for me, and I just was so grateful.

Sam Demma
Can you think of a moment one of your colleagues today did something small for you that had a really big impact and maybe it was recently, maybe it was a long time ago but what examples stick out in your mind?

Natalie Fisher
Let me see. I think of one. Obviously, everybody’s got a lot going on—jobs, life, family. And I would say the last two years, my dad has been sick. So it’s been hard for me to watch him go through all of that and I have a daughter and work is busy. So I’ve just been run down a little bit, like only six months ago.

And I think April, one of my coworkers, just said like, “Hey Nat, let’s get off campus, let’s have lunch, like let’s connect on like a personal level.” And she’s fairly new to the organization so I was like, “Oh, like what a great gesture.” She notices that I’m not myself at work and we had lunch and we both had tears, we had laughs, like it was such a good connection.

And I think from that point on, our friendship and our co-working space together has grown tremendously. And I think now I have that person to count on at work if I am having that moment, because I’m comfortable. I’m in that safe space that she’s created.

Sam Demma
I think it’s also such an important thing to remember that we’re not alone in those challenges because everyone’s going through something. And yeah, I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. But it’s so cool to hear that you have those supports in your workplace. Like it’s not something you have to wait for until you go home.

How do you think you cultivate those safe spaces where people can be themselves?

Natalie Fisher
I think it’s just like the small actions, like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And I know, like, we always say, like, a little chit-chat doesn’t mean a lot to people, but I think, like, you genuinely can sense someone’s careness and their empathy that they have for a situation.

So they’re not really just saying, “Hey, how’s it going?” just because you’re passing by. Like they genuinely want to know how you’re doing. And I think if you have that space, more people will be vulnerable to open up. You’re like, “I’m not okay.” And I think that’s what we’re finding now here at the college is where students are okay, are getting more comfortable to say like, they’re not okay, which is a huge stepping stone, I think.

But I, yeah, and it is great that I have that space here at work. Not everybody has that. They usually go to work and go home, and then deal with kind of like their mental health or their inner kind of thoughts. So I am very fortunate.

Sam Demma
I think also when people in leadership positions express vulnerability first, it gives everyone else permission to do it because everyone else may be hesitating because they’re not sure if it’s acceptable behavior. But when someone in a leadership position does it in front of everybody, it almost like creates permission for everyone else to do the same.

Natalie Fisher
I agree.

Sam Demma
And I think like being a young leader in the role I am today, I can say all of my staff under me are older than me. So like, it’s a unique dynamic that I have between my staff. And I guess if I have shown them that I am not okay sometimes, so I think like it also gives them a safe space to be like, “Nat, I’m not okay either.”

I remember probably just before September hit for Startup, one of my staff was on edge and I had went down to her campus and I was like, “What’s up?” And I had created that safe space because she knew I have been in that space. So she did open up and she’s like, “I’m stressed. I don’t know why.”

And so like, we talked through it. And then by the end of the conversation, she’s like, “Nat, like, thank you so much for like, letting me like, be myself and be open and about how she was feeling.”

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. So it’s so, I’m glad to hear that you make the time for those conversations, because I think they’re just as important as work-related conversations.

A lot of your role is managing other staff on your team, but you also do a lot of student-facing events and you interact with students a lot. How do you build a relationship with a young person or build rapport with young people?

Natalie Fisher
I think it’s totally different. And I don’t know, you are young too. So, but when I was a student, I was very open with like co-workers—or not co-workers, like staff and faculty that always came up to me.

But I find this generation in post-secondary is a little bit tougher. Like, they make things a bit harder for us to kind of build that relationship with them. But I think if they are having a problem or an issue, I think just listening to them is the biggest thing. They want to be heard.

And then I think just providing that empathy is a huge part too. So like, “I hear you, I’m listening. Like, this is how we can support you. If I’m not the right person, like let’s connect you with the right person.”

Before pandemic was probably a little easier because right now at the college like people are at home, some staff are not on campus all the time. So as the MSAA we try to connect them with a person instead of just going, “Oh, just email this person,” which I think goes a long way for people, especially international students who are new to Canada and don’t know the environment here at the college yet.

So connecting them with a person, like person-to-person interaction is probably the best way. And then we’ve had students come back to say like, “Thank you so much for your help. Like, I’ve really got my things dealt with.” So they are appreciative of the extra step and extra mile that we go to make sure that their issues or concerns are dealt with.

Sam Demma
I had teachers who went above and beyond to make sure that I was okay or taken care of and it made all the difference for me. I also had some coaches who had a big impact on me for that same reason.

How has sports played a role in your journey and your leadership?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, for sure. I think sport is a unique thing. It brings life lessons kind of after the fact. You don’t think about them when you’re playing. I don’t know about you, but I definitely didn’t think about things in the life side when I was playing.

But I think just going through adversity and injury is kind of the same thing when you have a difficult employee or a difficult situation that you’re dealing with. So not to get down on yourself, think about how you can do better after the situation’s over.

Practice makes perfect. Like I feel like you’re not gonna get it right when you’re dealing with a situation for the first time. And so like going through it, you’re gonna learn something and then you’re gonna go through it again and you’re gonna learn another thing.

So I think very similar lessons, I guess you could say, within sport that translates into like the real world. Another thing is like time management. When you’re a student athlete, you gotta time manage huge, right?

So like coming into like a leadership role, you have your staff, you have your own work, and then like you have the leadership side of things. So for me, I’ve been in the leadership role for two years now, and I confidently say, like I am learning every day on how to be better.

Sam Demma
I think it’s so important to hold that mindset no matter whether it’s a job or a sport or whatever you’re getting involved in. I think the moment you think you’ve arrived and you know everything is the moment you start the downfall.

Natalie Fisher
Exactly.

Sam Demma
So I love that. Sports for me, too, were massive in life lessons. I had a coach who really cared about our character as human beings as well, not just the athletics. And he had all these weird, well, at the time, what seemed like weird rules.

There was this long cobblestone pathway we had to walk down to get to the soccer field, but if you just walked off the pathway onto the grass you could get there in like two minutes less. Right? Because it was a perfect like straight line shortcut whereas this path went in a massive circle for no reason to bring you to the soccer field.

So first couple of times I joined this club I cut off the pathway and walked on grass and I get all the way to the field and I’m shaking the coach’s hands and he’s like, “Sam, go walk back up the hill and walk down the pathway.” And I was like, “Okay, coach, my bad.”

We always had our shirts tucked in, like he was very much attentive to these little details. And the way he carried himself just stuck with me. So I think we had similar experiences when it comes to sports.

One of the things that happens as an athlete is you also have uncomfortable conversations, right? You know, you gotta have uncomfortable conversations with a coach, with your teammates, even with your parents in the car, sometimes after the game finishes, right?

And they turn to you and say, “So how’d you think you played?” And you’re like, “It’s one of those ones, huh?”

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Sam Demma
I think it’s the same working with other people, you know, as a part of a student association. As a team leader, as a team member, how do you approach those challenging conversations with your staff members?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, I think it’s, again, like listening, like active listening. I know like some leaders just kind of like listen but aren’t attentive to what people are saying. I think listening, providing them that space to really open up—I think if they don’t have that space to open up, you’re not going to get their authentic feeling or self.

But I also then think like working together to create that solution or to get on the other side of the difficult piece. It’s really hard to bring something to someone or have something brought to you and then you figure out, as the leader, you figure out the solution. I think it’s important that you work together with that employee to figure out what is the best option for us to move forward over this obstacle.

It gives them a sense of belonging and value. I think the worst feeling is for them to walk away and go, “Well, they didn’t do anything,” or, “I don’t feel like that’s the right direction that they were expecting.” So I try to listen to their story. I always ask them, “What do you think that we should do to kind of improve the situation?” or, “What are your thoughts?” And then I can share my perspective.

So it’s like a team—two people or a team figuring out what the best course of action is. It just gives them a sense of, “We’ve listened, we now are on the same page, so we have shared understanding.” And then moving forward, we’ll work together, and they know that the support is there. So if it does come up again, or there’s another roadblock before we get to the other side, they’re confident that they have the support beside them.

Sam Demma
I think the active listening piece is so challenging because in today’s days we have so many distractions—not to mention our own challenges. Like, someone starts talking and we’re thinking about 4 p.m., and we have to deal with this person or go pick up our kids. So is there anything you do that helps with that portion of the conversation?

Natalie Fisher
So I try to make notes as they talk. And then usually what I’ll do is I’ll kind of paraphrase what they said or what I’m hearing. I’m like, “This is what I’m hearing. Is this accurate? If it’s not, where am I missing pieces?” Just so if I do have these random thoughts in my head, like you were saying, I can then correct myself.

And so it could be a huge piece of the story that they’re sharing that I’m missing. So I do try to reiterate, “This is what I’m hearing. This is what you’re saying. This is how you’re feeling. Is that correct? Is that accurate?” Obviously, if they say no, probably questions help, but usually, they’re like, “Yep, perfect.” So then we kind of move forward.

Sam Demma
And you’re listening to your staff every single day, but you’re also listening to the concerns of hundreds, if not thousands, of students, trying your best as a team to cater to those needs. You have a pulse on some of the challenges students at the college are facing.

What would you say are some of the most common things in terms of challenges that students these days are carrying in their backpacks?

Natalie Fisher
I would say as an international student, money and jobs are a huge thing. Housing, affordable housing nowadays, is really big, especially in Hamilton. And then what the MSA and the services department—we’ve been focused on food insecurity. Food insecurity has been a huge piece of the struggle students are facing these days.

So we’ve expanded all of our food security programs. We are going to facilitate a Health Canada survey on food insecurity to get some data on how food-insecure students are based on 10 standard questions. So we’re really looking forward to that. Unfortunately, it’s going to bring back bad data, but I think once we have that data, we can then improve the resources and stuff on campus for students.

And then advocate to the institution to say, “These are the percentages of how food insecure students are. What can you do as an institution to also support these students?” So I would say food insecurity, housing, and money, jobs are the huge struggles students face.

Sam Demma
I was a guest at Mohawk College last year, and I noticed that this year, the local restaurant had these reusable containers that you could bring back to have your food put in every time you buy food there. And I thought, “What a unique way to be a little more sustainable and also provide a less expensive option for students who are going to continue using that reusable container.”

What are some of the other changes that are happening at the college that you as MSA are pumped about, or things that you’ve been working on and you’re excited to just shout on top of mountains?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, so it’s called Friendlier, the sustainable kind of reusable program. It launched in September, so it is campus-wide. It’s not just the MSA, which is nice, and I think a lot of other colleges are trying to get on board with this initiative.

Another one, we launched a program called Dialogue, as you’re familiar with. It is an uncapped mental health wellness service. So we piloted it last year, so we’re super excited that students get to use it this year. Again, because before, we had capped therapy, so they got six sessions for their mental health, which wasn’t ideal because most students need more than six sessions to kind of get to remission in their treatment.

So this is uncapped, it’s virtual, on their phone, so very accessible. Another one—this food security thing is really big from our board of directors that we’re trying to figure out what students want. As you know, things are changing in the generations of students.

They don’t want to drink and party anymore, is what we’re finding. They want to just hang out, have a social connection with one another. So we really pivoted from our event side to really focus on social connection and how to get other students to interact with another group of students without kind of making it awkward for them.

So that’s kind of what we pivoted to. We have a huge international population, so we’re trying to cater events to them. But I think most of our events that we’ve kind of been hyped up all summer about are now over. But we have kind of programming going out throughout the year.

So yeah, lots going on at the MSA. I think there’s different things that we have happening and are catering to different demographics at the college.

Sam Demma
If there’s an educator who’s just jumping into this work now, who’s feeling a little scared, nervous, burnt out, what advice would you give them?

Natalie Fisher
Hold on. I think everything’s changing. I think if you don’t love change, post-secondary is not the work for you. I can confidently say within the seven years that I’ve been here at the MSA, not one year has been the same.

I love change, so it’s kind of great to adapt different things. I had one leader tell me when there’s a change there’s always an opportunity for new things. So I think if you do come up against a roadblock or you’re burnt out, there’s always going to be an opportunity on the other side, and I think if you find that opportunity, that will relight your fire to get back into it.

Sam Demma
That’s exactly what I told myself when my car broke down. “This is a beautiful opportunity for a new vehicle.”

Natalie Fisher
There you go.

Sam Demma
Nat, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time and your positive energy and your insights. And I hope that the work with the MSA continues to be successful and very meaningful.

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, thanks so much, Sam. Happy to be here.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Natalie Fisher

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 24, 2024 by Coach Education Student Leadership Student Success 0

Shianne Gammon – CTSO Manager, BPA & FFA

Shianne Gammon – CTSO Manager, BPA & FFA
About Shianne Gammon

Shianne Gammon is a Student Leadership Manager in the Idaho Division of Career Technical Education. She serves both BPA (Business Professionals of America) and FFA. Before she started in her role, she was a high school business education teacher for five years. During her time as a teacher, she was also a BPA advisor and coached high school girls basketball and volleyball. 

She is very passionate about CTE (career technical education) and CTSOs (career technical student organizations). Growing up, both of her parents were in education. Her dad a history/government teacher and football coach. Her mom a business education teacher, cheerleading coach and BPA Advisor. Following along in their footsteps just came naturally. 

Shianne now has the pleasure of working with the State Officers for both student organizations and helping them to become incredible leaders. Although, she would argue that she has actually learned more from them and they continue helping her grow every day. 

Connect with Shianne Gammon: Email | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Idaho Division of Career Technical Education
BPA (Business Professionals of America)
FFA

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today I’m joined by Shianne Gammon, who introduced me to Chick-fil-A, ladies and gentlemen. She is a superstar. Shianne, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today. Please introduce yourself.

Shianne Gammon
Thanks for having me.

Shianne Gammon
I’m very excited to be here. My name is Shianne Gammon. I’m a student leadership manager at the Idaho Division of Career Technical Education. So I help support student organizations like BPA and FFA.

Sam Demma
How did you get into this work? Did you always know you were going to be a student in student leadership?

Shianne Gammon
I got into it through education. So both of my parents are educators. My dad is a, he was a high school government and history teacher and followed into politics and everything. And my mom was a high school business teacher.

Shianne Gammon
And so I followed right into her footsteps. I didn’t think I was going to, and then I did. So she was a BPA teacher or advisor. I was a part of BPA, which is Business Professionals of America. And so I got into teaching and loved it.

Shianne Gammon
I just think student organizations are incredible and a huge part of education. And so I love the idea of working at the state level, because then you also get to do like some event planning and coordinating and networking. And so when this position opened up, I just knew I had to be a part of it.

Sam Demma
So previous to this role, tell me about your own career journey.

Shianne Gammon
Yes.

Shianne Gammon
So, I went to college, not quite sure what I was going to do. I was not going to do education like my parents. And then after like a year or two of wandering around, I was like, wait, okay, I will. I got a general business degree and then I went an alternate route into teaching so you can get certified through the state for CTE teaching if you hold a valid credential. Like I had done enough work experience in business through various things and then I got that certificate so that I could teach.

Shianne Gammon
And so before that I worked for like a mortgage company, a title company, I worked for a radio group, and then I got into teaching and I taught for five years and loved it. And then I actually, the only reason I really left was just because I had three small kids and we were going through the pandemic and it was just a little too many things going on my plate at the time.

Shianne Gammon
So I stepped outside of it. And then when this position opened up, it was perfect because it was like back in education, but not fully back in education. And I could have a little bit of both.

Sam Demma
And you’re busier than ever now, traveling non-stop.

Shianne Gammon
Busier than ever.

Sam Demma
What do you love most about the work you get to do today?

Shianne Gammon
I love, I think my first answer honestly is working with the student organizations, especially the state officers. So I get to help coordinate the state officers for both of the orgs I work with, and they are just the most incredible kids.

Shianne Gammon
I always, I recently were getting ready to travel to DC with some of them, and I would, we’re planning a conference, and we’re doing these things, and I was like, I don’t know if I’ve given them what they need from me to be successful. And so we had a meeting, and they were going over their stuff, and I was like, oh, wow, you guys are incredible. Like, you knew exactly what you needed to do.

Shianne Gammon
And so really watching them, they just, their emotional intelligence, all the things that they have right now is just awesome to watch because I did not. I was not like that at 18, and I feel like I was pretty good, but they are just, kids are amazing, and they know exactly sometimes what they wanna do, what they wanna be, and how to do it.

Sam Demma
And it’s so impressive. How do you build rapport and relationships with young people that you support, like the state officers and anyone who’s a part of the associations?

Shianne Gammon
Yeah, I think building relationships is key to everything. It’s so, so important. So, especially like when I was teaching before, I would say that that was the best thing. The thing I was most successful with, was teaching, was I could build a relationship with a kid. And then I would learn all the rest of things, like how to manage a classroom and how to like go through the curriculum.

Shianne Gammon
But I was able to just build it just because I think it’s important to see them as people and they are, they come from all different walks of life. They’re all struggling with different things or maybe not, but they all have different things going on. And so I would just kind of, I’m not just there for them to come in the class, do their work and leave.

Shianne Gammon
I want them like to be seen and whether they’re my most high-performing kids, low-performing kids in the middle, like, and sometimes that’s obviously really hard in education because maybe you have like 35 kids in your classroom and you can’t sit there and talk to every single one every single day. But I would just try to like talk to each of them, get to know them.

Shianne Gammon
Some of my favorite things I would do my last year or two of teaching was I’d even always like, I’d have all the snacks in my room. They knew they could come in and get fed. And that’s the thing, like kids come in and maybe they haven’t eaten, maybe they haven’t, you know, there’s a lot of things going on. And so I’d make sure to have the snacks.

Shianne Gammon
It was a safe place. And I would just try to teach them. I think that was a good thing about being a business teacher was I was going more like, when you were put into the business environment as an adult, no one is teaching you, like how to, they don’t take your phone away, they don’t sit down, you know, like you have to learn how to live your life and get your job done.

Shianne Gammon
And so I would try to focus with that. And same with the state officers is, I’m like, it’s not just I’m with you for the year and then I never see or speak to you again. Like it is, no, we are connected for life. We’ve been through the trenches for the year, and I want to see them all do great, great things and I think they can just feel that from me.

Sam Demma
You mentioned right before we started recording, this is the second year and I remember when we collaborated for the Idaho BPA State Leadership Conference that it was your first and you were excited, you were elated, you were nervous, you were all the emotions, you know, everything was going on. Give us a peek behind the curtain of planning a statewide conference.

Shianne Gammon
Whew, it was a doozy. It is a lot and it is amazing. It’s an amazing thing to do and put on and it really put me through a big test because I’m definitely the planner person anyways. Like I love to plan things.

Shianne Gammon
If someone’s like, we’re going on a trip, I’m like, cool, here’s the itinerary. I planned it. I know what we’re doing. So I love that part of it. And it was, what I’ve learned from it, it was very, very important for networking just because there’s so many pieces that go into it.

Shianne Gammon
And one of the big key takeaways too is that you’re never going to do an event and have every single person so happy with it. There’s probably something that went wrong somewhere. And I want to be in control of the whole entire thing. And like, this next year, I’m like, okay, we’re going to delegate a little better. Put the right people that we trust, we find those people, we put them in the right place, they’re in charge of that, and then at the end I’ll be like, cool, how did that go?

Shianne Gammon
But I can’t be everywhere at once. And so planning the event was just, there’s a lot of logistics behind it, of course, and getting the right space, getting the right people, getting all the information out that everyone needs to have all the time. But I would say that the biggest things are making sure that you’ve delegated everything out and all of that, because it is a lot.

Shianne Gammon
And there’s a reason that people have teams doing events, that it’s not always one person can do it. It’s like, yes, one person can do everything. You’re gonna die doing it. So it is better for your own health and honestly for the event to be able to have all those people in it.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I could tell you from personal experience, I’ve managed my own business for the past six years and I have a few too many gray hairs as a result of that decision. And only recently did I finally stop being stupid and ask somebody for some help.

Sam Demma
And I have a really lovely team member named Renata now who has supported me in ways that I would never have imagined possible. And it’s freeing up my mental space to generate new creative ideas. And she’s doing a better job at half of the things than I would be doing myself. And it’s like it hits your ego, but it’s the truth, you know?

Sam Demma
Tell me a little bit about managing other people. I guess that’s a part of your role as a leader, and it’s something I’m new to. What have you found that works really well when you think about your own leadership style?

Shianne Gammon
Managing people can be very difficult, because especially I can be a little bit more of a people pleaser as well. And it’s hard to delegate stuff out because I’m like, wait, wait, wait, no, I can just do it, I can just do it. And so it is definitely uncomfortable depending on who you are and your personality.

Shianne Gammon
But for me, I feel like very clear communication helps a lot in knowing the expectations. And I’m learning that about managing state officers as well, is that sometimes things that I think are common sense or that don’t need to be explained, it’s like, no, still, you should probably, setting expectations is huge.

Shianne Gammon
People need to know what, where their vision is, what is going on, like, why are we doing this? Because if you’re just asking them to do something without the why behind it, that’s so hard to get everyone going in the same direction.

Shianne Gammon
And so that’s what I’ve found to be the most successful is really just like, okay, here are the expectations that I expect from you, here’s what you can expect from me, because that’s also being transparent and having your own integrity of like, no, whatever I’m asking you to do, I will also be doing it.

Shianne Gammon
Because there’s nothing worse than having a manager that you’re like, wait, you’re not doing that though. And so, doing that and having this really clear communication and trust, honestly, you know, that’s like, okay, if I gave you a task, I’m trusting that it got done.

Shianne Gammon
Otherwise, it’s so hard to delegate it out or anything like that. And so, just setting some really good, clear expectations and boundaries with people goes a long way.

Sam Demma
I was talking to one of my mentors about some of the frustrations I was having with working with other people. And he said, well, did you train them on that thing you’re asking them to do? And I was like, no, I didn’t. And he’s like, well, then how can you expect them to know how to do it?

Sam Demma
I was like, damn. And so that idea of sharing the expectations up front, or providing the training up front to just let people know, like, this is when you know this is done. This is how we do this.

Sam Demma
Then at least you’re on that equal ground where you can turn around and say, hey, we did show you how to do this and you did share that you understood. Tell me where you’re still stuck. So I think that’s been really helpful for me.

Sam Demma
I echo all the things you just shared as well. And what is the part of the job right now that’s bringing you the most joy and fulfillment and excitement?

Sam Demma
I echo all the things you just shared as well. And what is the part of the job right now that’s bringing you the most joy and fulfillment and excitement?

Shianne Gammon
That’s a good one. I would say the things that bring me – I always go to the people, honestly. People are, they are just what is so motivating and keep you going. Whether it’s my coworkers here in the office, I know if I’m coming in the office, it’s gonna be a good day.

Shianne Gammon
Like we’re gonna have fun. And I might grumble the whole way I’m driving. Once I’m here, it’s so fun and it is a good time. It’s a good team that you build. And like event-wise, I actually just took state officers to DC for the first time.

Shianne Gammon
And that was our first, like, so for BPA, they hadn’t done a leadership summit before. And so this was the second year they did it. They just implemented it last year. And so taking students to that and seeing the, they were seeing the bigger picture, they were seeing, they were advocating for CTE and for their orgs. And that was just super powerful to be a part of.

Shianne Gammon
And so I loved that. And then we came back and I just feel like now planning our event for our conference in March, I’m like, oh, we have ideas, we have things going on. These kids are gonna fully leave this year of their service, just great kids. And that is super fun to watch.

Sam Demma
So the people is the thing that kind of keeps you moving forward. Always. Where do you see yourself in five years from now?

Shianne Gammon
You know, great question.

Sam Demma
No pressure.

Shianne Gammon
No pressure.

Shianne Gammon
I would really, I don’t see myself leaving the position I’m in. Like, if we get, our team could grow, and so then maybe I wouldn’t have two orgs under me. Sure. But I see myself growing, especially BPA and Idaho even more, because FFA is its own beast, and it grows all the time anyways.

Shianne Gammon
And BPA will need a little bit more love and attention.

Sam Demma
Fair.

Shianne Gammon
So I see myself just really, really knowing my stuff. Just doing some good things for the org and growing our membership more and more. For Idaho and BPA, we’re like the 10th largest nationally and I would love to break higher into that.

Shianne Gammon
Like there are a couple states that we can catch pretty easily and I would love to do that and just honestly keep putting on some really great conferences, grow the networking, grow our alumni even more. I kind of see myself doing that and just really growing into that as well.

Sam Demma
One of the things a lot of educators mention on the show is that you can’t pour from an empty cup. You’re someone who has high energy and I know because I’ve worked with you and I can also feel it on this call. What do you do in your own time to ensure that your cup is full so you can show up energetic and optimistic and ready to serve others?

Shianne Gammon
I’m not always really great about keeping my cup full. It’s pouring into lots of different things, of course, but honestly, I will bring it back again to people. People fill my cup all the time. I, of course, am continually working on filling my own cup and making sure that I’m taking the space and time I need and maybe setting boundaries of that.

Shianne Gammon
I actually even forgot to take my computer home yesterday. So that’s a nice way of taking the time, get it set. So having those boundaries of that you don’t have to be available 24-7 to people, that it’s okay and that maybe when I leave here I’m taking off that hat and now I’m putting on my mom hat and after that’s off that I’m doing this and not that the mom hat’s ever fully off me but you know, just where the time is.

Shianne Gammon
But I think just spending time with people that help fill my cup is huge. That I’ve surrounded myself with really good people inside the workplace, outside the workplace, wherever it’s at, that I know I can go to to talk to, that we can just go have fun together, and that it honestly just resets it so quickly.

Shianne Gammon
But I think just finding, just enjoying what you’re doing is huge, that you have to really enjoy it. And that not every day is gonna be like, wow, I did something really, really exciting today. But it was still something that I loved doing and being a part of, and those small little wins every day are amazing as well.

Sam Demma
Were you involved in any CTSOs when you were a student?

Shianne Gammon
I was, so I was actually, I was a part of BPA. I’m trying to think of my school, it was a smaller school, so we didn’t have a ton of the orgs in there yet, but I was a part of BPA, and actually my mom was my BPA advisor.

Shianne Gammon
And she still is a BPA advisor, so it’s funny now because she comes to the conference that I’m putting on.

Sam Demma
Was she in Idaho last year?

Shianne Gammon
She was.

Sam Demma
She was?

Shianne Gammon
Yeah, and so she was like, oh, you’re kind of like my boss. I’m like, well, not really. But she’s going into year 30 of being a BPA advisor and teacher. It’s almost done. She’s got like two years left. She’s so close.

Shianne Gammon
But yes, I was a part of BPA growing up and it was super fun because me and some of my best friends who are still best friends to this day, competed together and we’re a team together. And so it was amazing just because it got us out of our small little Idaho town.

Shianne Gammon
We came to the big city of Boise for the state conference and you networked and you met people and then I was able to go to nationals and compete and meet more people. And some of those connections, you know, you still have to this day. So it was amazing to be a part of for sure.

Sam Demma
I can say firsthand as a guest, like the connections continue. I got a message from Dallin the other day and Job and I connect every now and then over Instagram. The community that shows up are just such nice people that are all striving to improve and do good things. So I hope that the conferences do grow and not that it’s about competing against other states, but go Idaho, go.

Shianne Gammon
Go Idaho, go.

Sam Demma
If there’s an educator listening to this who is just forgetting their why a little bit, they started this academic year feeling burnt out and we all have those moments, what advice would you give? Sometimes it’s helpful to hear advice from people that don’t know us, or almost like confide in people that don’t know who we are. Like, what advice do you think an educator who’s struggling right now could benefit from hearing?

Shianne Gammon
I think that if you’re struggling with your why, so one is making sure you’re taking care of you first, you know your co-workers and they’re having a great time but especially in teaching the why is obviously going to be the students and so maybe looking at especially if you’ve been teaching for more than just this is your first year but looking at students that you’ve had previously and seeing those success stories and the things they’re doing that are incredible, that you were a part of getting that kid to where they are, and that is huge.

Shianne Gammon
So just seeing that, or even honestly if it is the first year, and so they started in August and what success have they had so far now? Like maybe they’re making really great friends, maybe they are going reading better, doing math better, you know all those things as well, but maybe they’re just growing as a person and that in turn is helping shape and grow you as a teacher, as a person.

Shianne Gammon
It’s just sometimes it’s those little small wins. It’s not going to be a huge thing every time, but just seeing the little growth in those students is amazing to see. And sometimes you need to, you can’t see it for yourself, but looking at, that’s why I think especially past students, I know I’ve had one of my best friends is a teacher and she got a letter from a student recently and it was like we were all crying because we were like, oh my gosh, it is powerful that the things you’re doing are powerful, even if it doesn’t seem like it in a day to day.

Shianne Gammon
But just take that time to reflect and see and maybe seeing the teachers that have gotten you to where you’re at is huge and maybe a talk with them could help honestly and help reshape your why.

Sam Demma
Shianne, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show, share some of your ideas, talk about your educational journey. It’s been a pleasure having you on. Keep up the amazing work and I hope to connect again soon.

Shianne Gammon
Awesome, thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Shianne Gammon

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 19, 2024 by CSTO Education Student Leadership Student Success 0

Stephen Hoyland – Assistant Superintendent Education Services at Battle River School Division

Stephen Hoyland – Assistant Superintendent Education Services at Battle River School Division
About Stephen Hoyland

Stephen Hoyland is the Assistant Superintendent -Education Services at Battle River School Division in Camrose, Alberta. Over his career, Stephen has taught Grades 4 to 12 ranging in subjects from Art, English, Social Studies and French.
Stephen was a school administrator for thirteen years. He took on the role of Director of Human Resources for three years and now is in his second year as Assistant Superintent – Education Services.

Throughout his career, Stephen has worked closely with students to promote their voice and ideas through student councils. Stephen believes that teachers succeed by listening to and learning from their students, as their voices shape meaningful impact in our schools. In order to make a difference in the lives of students and teachers, Stephen strives to be relationship focused, collaborative, energetic and hopeful.

Connect with Stephen Hoyland: Email | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Battle River School Division

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. Today we are joined by my friend, Stephen Hoyland. Stephen is the Assistant Superintendent of Educational Services with the Battle River School Division. Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the show here today.

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, Sam, I’m so excited. Thanks for having me. It means a lot just to spend some time with you today.

Sam Demma
I’m so excited to chat with you. Did you know when you were a student yourself that one day you’d be working supporting staff and students?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, for when I was a kid, no. When I actually did become a teacher, a lot of my friends that I went to high school with, they couldn’t believe that I was the guy that actually became the teacher from the class. I knew, Sam, like I had some great teachers and that made some impact in me when I was young.

Stephen Hoyland
I remember I was in grade six and I was struggling with my spelling, and the teacher sent me to a remedial room, and I just remember how that felt—like I was being pulled out. The teacher in there, after about a week, he came up to me, and this wouldn’t be said now in a class, but he said, “Stephen, are you stupid?” And I—it was a shock. And I said, “Pardon?” He goes, “Like, honestly, are you stupid?” And I said, “No.” And he goes, “Exactly. Don’t ever, ever forget that. And I never want to see you back here.”

Stephen Hoyland
For me, that was one of those moments where I went, okay. I wasn’t expecting a teacher to say that. Like I said, a teacher would never say that now, but for me, it was pivotal. I saw somebody that believed that I could actually do what I needed to do. That was one of those moments where I went, okay, I can build on this, and I can have faith in myself. And yeah, in grade six, I really started to realize, hey, I can do this.

Stephen Hoyland
I had some teachers along the lines that really challenged me in high school and made me realize my potential. And so what I did, Sam, is I love challenges. When I finished high school, I came from a small town in Alberta where nobody spoke French, and I wanted to be bilingual. I just—I wanted to be bilingual.

Stephen Hoyland
I wanted to be able to be that Canadian that could speak French and English. So I enrolled in what was called the Faculty Saint-Jean through the University of Alberta. I took my degree there, and I did not know hardly any French. I was just someone that was supported by a lot of different people, whether they were from Quebec or Francois-Breton. They really helped me and made me realize that, okay, if I have a challenge, if I have a dream, there are going to be people there that can help me. And yeah, I became bilingual, and that really opened up many doors for me in my career.

Sam Demma
You said you love challenges. Was it always like that for you, or where did that come from?

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it has always been—I love challenges. Coming from a small town, knowing that post-secondary was the key to opening a lot of doors, I just knew that if I wanted to do something that was going to be enriching and bring me happiness, I needed to set goals. Setting the goal to become bilingual, even though I hardly knew any French—I took three years of French in high school—and deciding, okay, I want to become bilingual, immerse myself, go to Quebec, take university there, and travel the world. That mindset of creating new goals was huge for me.

Stephen Hoyland
When I became a teacher, I started thinking outside of the box. I began teaching new courses, courses I had absolutely no reference to, and learned from that. I just kept on pushing myself to do what I needed to do. Eventually, Sam, it came to going to different schools and being identified as, “Hey, are you interested in administration? We think you’d be a great fit.” I threw myself out there. One thing I said when I was young in my career was, “I love being a teacher. I don’t want to be an administrator.” Then I became an assistant principal—I loved it. After a while, I decided, “Okay, I’m going to become a principal.” During that time, I also pursued my master’s, which I said I never wanted to go back to university for. But I learned from that and kept setting those goals. That was important.

Sam Demma
How important do you think it is for young people to set goals? It sounds like it had a big impact on you.

Stephen Hoyland
You know, when you’re young—I mean middle school—you’re really enjoying your friends, your peer groups, and at that point, the goals aren’t at the forefront. But I really do believe that if you have a bit of an idea of what’s going to make you happy, what’s going to give you contentment in life, then focus on a goal at that age. Once you get into high school, I think this can be difficult for young people too. Often, family or neighbors are asking, “What are you going to do when you’re done school? What do you want to do?” That puts a lot of pressure on kids.

Stephen Hoyland
I think if kids have a bit of an idea of what they might like to do, that makes a big difference. Starting with a small goal, and then life experiences can really build upon that and direct you into something that’s going to bring you happiness.

Sam Demma
You’ve offered an insight into your own story of the goal you set. Typically, when we think about goals, we think about students’ career-path-related goals. But your goal was to learn French. You didn’t say, “I want to be a French teacher,” or “I want to teach a language in the future.” You said, “There’s a skill out there that I’m curious about, and I want to improve at it and learn.” And it opened doors for you. I think if we can encourage more young people to set goals related to their curiosities or just building skills, the building of a skill will open doors or pathways in the future.

Sam Demma
Most of the time, when you become proficient or good at something, you can add value—and we need people that can add value. And I still suck at French. So if I met your grade six teacher, he would probably be like, “Sam, are you stupid?”

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, and you know, yeah, and it’s—you’ve nailed it. It’s just about finding those things, those skill sets, that bring you that fulfillment and, at the same time, challenge you. Run with it and grow as a person.

Sam Demma
There’s a book that I was recently recommended by my godfather. I played golf with him and my dad recently, and he manages lots of people in his role. So I was asking him about leadership and managing others, and he told me to check out this book called Principles by Ray Dalio. He said it was foundational in the way he leads his teams.

Sam Demma
I was reading the book, and one of the statements stuck out to me. It said, “The success doesn’t come from achieving the goal; it comes from struggling well in the pursuit of the goal.” And I thought, you know, there are so many times in my life where I’ve reached the outcome that I thought was going to make me feel good. And when I hit the thing or achieve the quote-unquote goal, I actually felt kind of lost—like, because now I’m not struggling towards anything anymore.

Sam Demma
In your own journey, do you have any other goals? What are things that are causing you to struggle these days? What’s pulling Stephen forward?

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, that’s such a great question. In my role right now, Sam, I’m responsible for the learning that takes place in our school division. Over the last year, I’ve learned a lot about math and numeracy. As I said, I learned French and then became a humanities teacher. Now, in my new role, I am learning an awful lot around math and numeracy. I had to create some goals for myself last year.

Stephen Hoyland
One of them was to become more proficient at understanding what math and numeracy are and how I can support teachers. Over the last year, I’ve really dived into data and become a lot more data-informed with my team. Now I can look at results and say, “Oh my gosh, take a look at where these results are. This is what we need to do.”

Stephen Hoyland
So for me, as a goal right now, it is to better understand how I can support students to become better math and numeracy learners in our school division—and, with that, what I need to do to support our teachers. So right now, math and numeracy are something I am totally immersed in, learning more than I’ve ever known.

Sam Demma
Wow, that’s awesome, man. I think those are skills that benefit anybody, no matter what pathway they pursue in the future as well.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam Demma
One of the things that stood out to me when we collaborated with some of your schools and with Rayanne, your colleague, was that all the decisions you were making were based on data. And I think it’s so important that we make decisions based on data, not our personal assumptions or opinions.

Sam Demma
In fact, I’m making all these connections because now I’m reading this book. But this gentleman, Ray, was running a hedge fund, and that was the majority of his career. The decisions they were making were based on all the data they collected on the stock markets and different companies. They would input equations that would take all the previous data of years of financial numbers and projections and say, “If we made this decision based on all the previous data, what would our outcome be?”

Sam Demma
Then people would argue about it, saying, “Well, no, we need to do this.” Their philosophy was, “We have constructive disagreements, and then we test our ideas on data. Whatever the best outcome the data shows us, we move forward with that.” I think that’s kind of how you operate and how Rayanne and your team operate. Has the data surprised you in any way, shape, or form based on student needs or things that are happening in the schools?

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it has. There have definitely been some great surprises. Last year, we created a new survey that we shared with parents, guardians, students, teachers—basically anybody that was a stakeholder. We put it out there and had a great response. There was a lot of positive feedback around where our school division has been and what we were doing to move forward.

Stephen Hoyland
It was kind of an affirmation of the positive things that have been happening in our school division for probably the last several years. Then there was also that voice saying, “Hey, have you considered this?” That’s the point, Sam, where we’re at right now—like, okay, we’ve done some really good things, but now it’s time to look at what other things we have to try. That came out of the data as well.

Stephen Hoyland
The thing I’ve learned with it is, if you’re going to ask people’s opinions—if you’re going to say, “We need this data”—you have to do something with it. You have to let everybody know that you’re actually doing something with it. Because it’s meaningless if you just take it in and don’t share those results or the next steps. That’s the biggest takeaway for me: if you want people’s opinions, if you want their voice, you have to make sure you value it and follow through with it.

Sam Demma
We have interacted three or four times now—three, maybe two or three times on Zoom calls, and once in person. There’s been a couple of consistent things every time: we’ve always laughed in some capacity, we’ve always smiled, and we’ve always shared stories. I’m wondering—you strike me as someone who’s very optimistic and someone who looks for the positive sides of things in life, because it is a choice. Is that something you taught yourself to do? Was it passed down from your parents? In a world filled with challenges, we could choose to focus on anything. You hold this really positive energy—where does it come from?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, yeah, I definitely grew up in a home where there was lots of love. There was always support from my parents. And then I married a wonderful, wonderful high school sweetheart, I guess you could say. We’ve tried to create a family where our kids know there’s always love, and we try to be optimistic about everything.

Stephen Hoyland
One thing I try to do, Sam, every day when I walk into this building is—people ask me how I’m doing, and I’m honest, and I’m usually excellent. And I’m excellent because my drive in could have been a wonderful sunrise, I had a great coffee, I listened to some great songs—I listened to The Lumineers this morning, man, that woke me up, it was fantastic. Just finding those little nuggets in life that really bring you contentment, because life is good. There’s a lot of great things. If you can find that and be that example for other people, you can spread that optimism and that energy.

Stephen Hoyland
It’s much easier to have a smile than a frown. And you know what? Hurt is contagious too, but people need energy, people need positivity. If I can come across as authentic—which is my goal—I want people to understand that there’s a lot of good things happening in life, and I try to find that every day.

Sam Demma
I think it also models the behavior for students. Like you said, it’s contagious, and especially as an adult or a teacher. I remember some of my teachers—I’d walk into the room and hear, “Good morning, how’s everyone doing?” Some kids were still waking up, but I’d reply, “Good morning, sir, how are you?” It really wakes you up.

Sam Demma
I’ve even had experiences in my own life where I was feeling upset or frustrated, and I walked onto a bus where the driver was singing music and cracking jokes. The way other people show up and the energy they carry has an impact on how I feel. I think it’s the same in the workplace or in school buildings. When you think of people who have had a big impact on you, who comes to mind? I’m assuming your parents, it sounds like. But have you had any other mentors or role models who have really shaped the way you think about things? When you think about your own journey, who are the people whose names you can’t leave out?

Stephen Hoyland
I was really fortunate growing up in a small town, so I got to know a lot of people who made a difference in my life—neighbors who were like grandparents. But as time went by, I’ve had the privilege of working with some wonderful, wonderful teachers and other administrators—assistant principals who have given me great inspiration and affirmation around the work we were doing together.

Stephen Hoyland
For me, it’s about being part of a team and surrounding yourself with people who challenge you, inspire you, and feed you with their energy and great ideas. Right now, I’m on a team that fills my bucket every day, brings me energy, and challenges me to think and do better. So to answer your question, it’s surrounding yourself with people who lift you up and are open to great suggestions—while you’re also open to theirs—and you work collaboratively. And honestly, my kids. I have three kids, and they give me a lot of inspiration, great ideas, and they inspire me to do better.

Sam Demma
One of the things my godfather told me while golfing was this: “You have to create an environment that encourages mistakes but doesn’t tolerate not learning from them.” So when a mistake is made, it’s like, “Congratulations, let’s talk about this,” and then you have an open conversation.

Sam Demma
In your own career, are there any quote-unquote “mistakes” or learning lessons that have been instrumental for you—aside from the fact that you cheer for the wrong hockey team? Is there anything else that sticks out?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, yeah, over my career, I’ve definitely made some mistakes. I’m just trying to pinpoint something… Well, you know what? It kind of ties to mistakes and challenges. I wanted to become bilingual, so I went to the Faculté Saint-Jean. After a year, I realized, “I can’t do this. I just cannot. I don’t have what it takes.” And my dad said, “Well, you know what, son? If it’s something you can’t do, then look at other options.”

Stephen Hoyland
So what I did was I applied to another faculty that was all in English. At that time, I thought it was a great idea. I got accepted and was ready to leave the Faculté Saint-Jean. But something pivotal happened. I went to Quebec for a summer. I went to university there for three months, and during that time, I realized, “I can do this. I do have what it takes.”

Stephen Hoyland
During that summer, I was writing letters back to the university, saying, “Please, I don’t want to leave. I want to stay. This is where I want to be.” Thankfully, I was able to stay. At the time, I thought it was too much, but stepping back and reflecting helped me realize I could do it. Sometimes you need to put things in perspective and understand you’re not alone—there are people who will help you. Part of it is believing in yourself.

Stephen Hoyland
What happened, Sam, is I actually took an extra year to get my first degree. That’s because it was all in French, and I look back at that now—it was probably the best thing I ever did.

Sam Demma
Year well spent.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it sure was.

Sam Demma
Your role now is having such a great impact on so many—you’re supporting staff, whole school buildings, and students and their families. What is your leadership style? How do you believe you effectively lead other people?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, I really believe, Sam, that it’s about the team. I believe I need to be in contact with administrators, principals, and assistant principals. I need to be talking with teachers. For me, it’s about getting their voice and weighing their ideas with my own thoughts. I want to consider what I think is best versus what’s practical.

Stephen Hoyland
For me, my approach is transparency. To be transparent, I need to listen and collaborate with those people who are walking the walk and learning every day. Being very collaborative is the basis of how I lead.

Sam Demma
Outside of the work you do with the school board, what do you do personally to ensure your own cup is full so you’re showing up laughing, smiling, and supporting others?

Stephen Hoyland
One thing my wife and I truly love to do is hiking. We live on the prairies, but we have beautiful access to land where we can hike. On those hikes, we’ll see elk, deer, and all sorts of birds and animals. That really grounds me—it brings me peace and contentment.

Stephen Hoyland
Spending time with my family is also huge. My kids live in Edmonton and Calgary, so we visit them as much as possible. That brings a sense of connection and fulfillment. Talking a lot with my wife is important too—having someone who understands life and listens to you makes a big difference.

Stephen Hoyland
And one more thing, Sam—I’ve been trying meditation. I’ve been doing it for about two months now, and I’m a huge fan of it.

Sam Demma
Ah, that’s awesome, man. I’m so glad it’s going well.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it’s great.

Sam Demma
I’ve had good experiences myself, and when things feel more challenging, I notice I haven’t meditated in a while. Maybe there’s a correlation.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, I totally get that. Meditation is very peaceful—it’s kind of like a reboot.

Sam Demma
Yeah, it helps you. One of my friends said meditation is not about calming your mind, it’s about losing your mind. Recognizing that some of your thoughts aren’t even yours, and you can let them pass by.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, absolutely.

Sam Demma
This whole conversation felt like a nice reset or reboot for me. I appreciate you taking the time to share your ideas, philosophies, and stories. I hope we have another chance to cross paths soon. And when we do, hopefully, there won’t be any bears or elk around—I don’t care much for those things. But keep up the great work, my friend. It’s a pleasure to chat.

Stephen Hoyland
Thanks so much, Sam, and thanks for making a difference in so many lives.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Stephen Hoyland

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 10, 2024 by Battle School Division Education Educator Student Leadership Student Success 0

Martina Fasano – Principal at St. Elizabeth Catholic High School

Martina Fasano – Principal at St. Elizabeth Catholic High School
About Martina Fasano 

Martina Fasano began her teaching career in 2003 at YCDSB’s St. Joan of Arc Catholic High School. She also taught grade 8 at Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Elementary School before returning to the secondary panel and eventually serving as the department head of Canadian and World Studies at St. Maximilian Kolbe, where she taught economics, law, and history. As a vice-principal, Martina has had the honour and privilege of serving both the Our Lady Queen of the World Catholic Academy as well as the St. Brother Andre Catholic High School communities prior to being appointed as the principal of St. Elizabeth.

Martina has served on various committees at the Board level, including the YSCPC (York Secondary Catholic President’s Council), Drug and Alcohol Awareness (DAW), and the Covid-19 Logistics and Planning Committee. She was also a member of the committee that developed teacher resources for the history curriculum revisions which focused on the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s Calls to Action to embed Indigenous history into the grade 10 history curriculum in Ontario. As a member of the Ontario History and Social Science Teacher’s Association (OHASSTA), Martina also developed curriculum-based teacher modules on behalf of the Ontario Ministry of Education as part of a targeted project about the role of school trustees.

Throughout her career, Martina’s passion for engaging students has been at the forefront of her efforts toward forward thinking curriculum development in the social sciences, student leadership, school-based digital tool implementation, arts education, school/student safety, and data-informed school improvement. She has also had the opportunity to work with music industry professionals in the capacity of musician, author, social media manager, and public relations strategy. These experiences have allowed Martina to connect student learning to the world beyond the classroom, and bring exciting and dynamic opportunities to the school communities that she has served.

Connect with Martina Fasano: Email | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

St. Joan of Arc Catholic High School

Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Elementary School

St. Maximilian Kolbe

Our Lady Queen of the World Catholic Academy

St. Brother Andre Catholic High School

St. Elizabeth Catholic High School

Ontario History and Social Science Teacher’s Association

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by my good friend, Martina Fasano. Martina and I met just over a year ago now. She began her teaching career just over 20 years ago, and she is now a phenomenal principal of a school in the York Catholic District School Board. I’m going to allow her to introduce herself.

Sam Demma
Martina, please share a little bit about who you are with the audience.

Martina Fasano
Thank you so much for having me, Sam. Yeah, it’s been almost over a year now, which before you did your first gig here at St. E’s. So yes, I’m the principal here at St. Elizabeth Catholic High School, home of the Regional Arts Program as well, and having a great time.

Sam Demma
So you have one of the most interactive offices I’ve ever walked into in a school building. There are records hanging on the wall, guitars, and interesting objects on the shelves. Tell me a little bit about your own involvement in the arts that makes you so passionate about being at St. Elizabeth.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely, so I’ve been myself a musician probably since I was about maybe in the fifth grade or so. I’m not counting the drum set that I got when I was about four years old. But so that part is something very near and dear to my heart. Arts education in general for me was really something that helped shape who I am and the self-discipline that came from it. It was an even playing field, is what I would call it.

You start out where I was very fortunate. I was in a school board in Toronto, a Toronto Catholic as a student, and we started our music education programs there in grade 6 with a full band program. So that was the first time I had actually played music in a group, and you basically had a chance to start from scratch and learn an instrument, practice, and do all those things.

And I figured out very quickly that if you just practice and you play all the right notes at the right time, then everything sounds nice. So that’s kind of a metaphor too, for life in general, which is kind of where I took it. I started out as a saxophone player—that was my first instrument—together with piano. And then by the time I got to be a teenager, I added guitar in there because I was listening to a lot of rock, metal, and grunge at the time. It was the height of the grunge era, let’s say, with Nirvana and Pearl Jam and all those guys.

But definitely something that I carried into adulthood, into university. You jump from high school into post-secondary or into “What am I going to do with my life?” To quote Dee Snider from Twisted Sister, “What are you going to do with your life?” We want to rock, right? So I looked at going into the music industry from a more—not just the creative aspect—but looked into the business side of things.

That didn’t really resonate with me because I wasn’t doing anything that I enjoyed in my post-secondary program. I started out in business administration, and I thought, “I can’t do this for the rest of my life. I’m bored. There’s no creativity happening anywhere.” People work in cubicles. I can’t do that. And that’s why my office looks the way it does. It needs to have things in it that bring joy, make me happy, and serve as conversation pieces.

Because when a student walks in, for me, this is just my workspace. But for a student, especially if they’ve never been in trouble, they assume the principal is there to get you in trouble. So I don’t see it that way. But I noticed very early on in my career as an administrator, they see the title that’s on the door. And I noticed that having a lot of these little things around helped kind of put them at ease because they were conversation pieces.

So we get to that before we get to why the student was there. And most often, the student actually is not here because they’re in trouble. So it’s kind of a reputation thing—people think you only get sent to the principal’s office when you’re in trouble—but we’re dealing a lot more with supporting students as opposed to discipline.

Sam Demma
Well, you’re also the only principal that has a record on the wall with the plaque and their name on it. What is it all about?

Martina Fasano
So, the one that’s hanging in my office was actually when I left a school I was at, St. Maximilian Colby. The Canadian World Studies Department re-recorded Hotel California and changed all the lyrics as a goodbye gift. So that’s what’s hanging on the wall. And the little plaque actually has all of the changed lyrics, which are actually quite funny if you read them.

And it’s interesting because I do have a real one at home that 17-year-old me probably would have been really, really happy about. And, you know, wouldn’t have believed me if I said, “You’re going to end up getting a platinum record, but it’s not for what you think.” You’re not going to be in the band, you’re not going to be one of the producers, and you’re not going to be one of the managers, but it’s going to happen by way of your involvement in the music industry somehow.

And I would have laughed at you and said, “Sure, okay, whatever.” But I ended up being a ghostwriter for a rock musician, and that was the gift. The gift was the platinum record from the Guardians of the Galaxy soundtrack because the band that the artist originally recorded with, The Runaways, which is Joan Jett’s first band, had a number-one song, Cherry Bomb, which went to number one when Guardians of the Galaxy came out as a movie.

So, the record went platinum, and that person that I ghostwrote for was in that band. They got the platinum record and decided to also get me one because I was working on her book at the time. It was just about finished when that happened.

So that’s kind of cool. You’re right, I don’t know of any other principals that maybe came to education for the same reason. For me, it was like, “Why do you want to work with young people? Why do you want to specifically be around teenagers all day?” I get that question a lot.

And for me, it’s quite easy. There’s an energy to young people and a hope to young people that they naturally have that unfortunately, for a long time, schools have kind of almost stifled. And I thought in my wisdom as a young person myself when I made the decision, “If I can maybe change the way schools work, maybe it doesn’t have to be boring, maybe it doesn’t have to be something where there’s all these expectations, instead of actually cultivating a lifelong love of learning.”

Because when you look at, “My mom really wants me to do this and go to university to have this job, and I don’t want to do it, and I don’t know how to tell her,” I’ve had quite a few conversations with students and their parents about that. The fact that I switched my major halfway through from business administration to fine arts cultural studies, talk about a complete polar opposite.

But you have to find what brings you joy. You can make lots of money and maybe even be powerful in some cases doing something that you don’t enjoy. But you’re not going to be as good at it, in my view. You’re not going to be as fulfilled as a human being. And in the end, for me, it was like, I would like to be for young people what I would have needed at the age that I was at all along the way.

And that goes for why I became a vice principal or a principal as well. What did I need when I was a first-year teacher? So that’s what you try to be for somebody else.

Sam Demma
What do you think first-year teachers need to hear, specifically ones that are starting in the education space today, with so much change, especially coming out of the pandemic?

Martina Fasano
That they don’t need to be afraid to take a risk. That it is supposed to be difficult, that all great things are, but that they don’t have to do school and classrooms the way maybe they experienced and to not be afraid to be different.

Because right now, in my personal view, we’ve been doing education wrong for a long time. We have all the great people in the buildings, we have all the great programming in the buildings, we have a curriculum that helps us open those doors. But we are also based on a model that came to be in the 1800s as part of the Industrial Revolution.

Public education was meant to get everyone in line and trained to go to work. Sitting in rows, being obedient, and doing repetitive drills—memorization and all these things. Maybe for that world, those were the skills that were needed. But right now, we live in a world that schools haven’t caught up with yet, if that makes sense.

A perfect example: I was at the Billie Eilish concert last night, and you have the stereotype that young people are lazy, not passionate about things. I saw about 20,000 young people who were quite passionate about what they were seeing. They weren’t bored, they weren’t lazy—they were jumping up and down. The place was almost thunderous.

And in my view, I thought to myself, “This is what school should be like with all these young people in a building. Why are we trying to make everybody so quiet?” It doesn’t make sense to me. So part of being here at St. Elizabeth and having the Regional Arts Program here is that you get to showcase that. You get to see people being creative all day long.

Even if someone’s not in the Regional Arts Program, they still get the benefit of being in that space where creativity is free to flow and to happen. It has an impact on the children that surround those kids that are in the program.

So that’s definitely what I say to a first-year teacher: Don’t be afraid to take the risk. Don’t be afraid to be authentic. The students will see right through you if you’re not.

Sam Demma
I perform at many schools, and I intentionally call it a performance for the same reason you think students shouldn’t be quiet. Like, it needs to be an experience where they have a say and a voice in it, and it speaks to them on an emotional level—not just an educational level—and evokes emotion.

So many times, I’ll finish a speech or a performance, and one of the teachers will walk over and go, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry that the students were so loud.” And I say, “No, I encourage it! I egg them on throughout the performance. I want that. Yes, this is what we want. We don’t want them to just sit there with their legs crossed and hands on their lap, just looking in silence.”

Martina Fasano
Yep. You don’t learn if you’re being passive; there’s no learning happening. I distinctly remember being in my second year of teaching, and I was teaching English at the time. The play we were doing was Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet.

I always had a problem with Shakespeare being taught the way it was. I used to say, “Us reading Shakespeare like a book is the same as showing children a movie by reading the screenplay.” It’s a play—you’re not supposed to be reading it; you’re supposed to be acting it out.

So, I had a relatively rowdy class. I remember that distinctly. I said, “I can’t do this to these kids. The things my department gave me to use, this is not what we’re going to do. We can’t do this. These children will not only get nothing out of this and miss the complete point of the story, but you cannot expect a young person to want to read that old English text as a dramatic piece and not ask them to act it out and see what’s going on.”

So, we constructed this day where we said, “First, we have to figure out what this section of the play is about. Where are we? What’s going on? Romeo and Juliet meet at the party.” So, we basically said, “We’re going to make it a masquerade party.”

We made masks and everything else. I had the vice principal, bless her heart, come by. There was all this noise coming out of my classroom. She knocks on the door, and I opened it, horrified. I thought, “Oh my God, someone must have complained, or something happened.”

I explained, “We’re acting it out because it’s a play.” And there was this pause, and I thought, “This is it; I’m in trouble.” But then she said, “I’m so glad that all this noise is coming out of here because it means the kids are learning. Keep it up and have a nice day.”

The kids thought they were in trouble too! What does that say? If we’re learning stuff and having a good time, we must be in trouble? So, as a classroom teacher, I made it a point to do things that are fun. You have to because if you don’t, you don’t learn. Even if some of them are cheesy or purposely cheesy, they’ll remember them because they’re memorable.

Sam Demma
I couldn’t agree more. I absolutely love that you shared that story, and I hope the educator listening to this reshapes how they think about student engagement. There’s a phenomenal book I’ve been reading called The Advantage by a guy named Patrick Lencioni. He talks about the difference between really successful organizations and ones that fall flat on their face.

One thing he mentions is cohesion among the leadership team. It could be cohesion in a classroom or a staff room. He says the whole team needs to weigh in their thoughts and have constructive disagreements. If the whole team doesn’t weigh in, they won’t buy in.

So, if there’s no weigh-in, there’s no buy-in. That stuck out in my head. When you think about a classroom, students weigh in by using their voice. You don’t want silent people silently agreeing. Silent agreement means they’ll leave the classroom and tell their friends, “I disagree with everything we just talked about in the classroom.”

You want thoughtful disagreement to come up with the best ideas. I love that you shared that story. Thank you so much.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. There’s a lot more where that came from. I eventually got the hint that if you don’t engage them, they won’t learn. Some of those kids in that class had repeated referrals to the office when they were in someone else’s class—repeated.

I knew that coming in because sometimes, unfortunately, I’d get warned and told, “Oh, you have so-and-so; watch out.” I did my best to know my audience. The best thing about teaching is the powerful, real-time feedback.

If you’re teaching a lesson and everyone’s asleep, guess what? You’re not reaching anybody. But you have that feedback in front of you. If you’re willing to step away from what you think you should be, because maybe that’s what you were used to or how you learned, you can adjust.

We’re preparing students for a world that doesn’t even exist yet, using methods and tools from an era long gone. Then we wonder why students aren’t engaged or willing to take creative risks. Starting from when they’re four years old, we teach them compliance. Line up in a straight line, or you get in trouble.

Structure is important because people thrive in it, but there’s a difference between structure for compliance and structure for growth. They’re two very different things.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I love that. It’s like having a fence that keeps people in a space, but within that fence, there’s freedom. Is there any experience you’ve had as an educator or principal where you’ve had a big learning experience—something you tried that didn’t work out the way you thought but became a pivotal learning moment?

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. One of the first things I learned as an administrator was related to communication. Let’s say there’s an initiative or a memo you put out, and a couple of teachers don’t follow through or do something different.

It’s easy to send a staff-wide email saying, “Remember to do this,” when really, you’re talking to just two people. I learned from doing that once that it’s not the best approach.

As a classroom teacher, how would I feel if I got that email and I was already doing everything right? So now, when I communicate, I think about the high-performing teachers doing amazing work. I base my decisions on the best people in the organization, not the outliers who didn’t follow through this week.

That applies to classroom management too. If you punish the whole class for one student’s behavior, it affects everyone’s morale. Make decisions based on your best people—it goes a long way.

Sam Demma
That’s such good feedback. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, and I know the person listening feels the same. If they want to reach out, is it okay to put your email on the podcast page?

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. They can also follow me on Instagram, where we post about our school’s Regional Arts Program, performances, exhibits, and more. There’s always a lot going on, which is why the hive metaphor works—it’s always buzzing, and that’s a good thing.

Sam Demma
It’s been such a pleasure. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sam. All the best.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Martina Fasano

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 3, 2024 by Education Educator Mental Health Principals School Administration Student Leadership Teachers 0

Brian Robson – Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU) at Ontario Tech University 

Brian Robson – Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU) at Ontario Tech University
About Brian Robson

Brian Robson is the Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU) at Ontario Tech University in Oshawa, Ontario, where he leads a team of full-time, part-time and student staff who strive to enhance the campus experience for nearly 11,000 students. At the OTSU, Brian steward policies, mentors student executives, oversees elections, oversees numerous services, programs and events as well as over 100 Clubs & Societies, liaises with University Senior Leaders, and charts long-term strategic planning.

Prior to joining OTSU in late 2023, Brian was a Director of Training Programs and Business Development at Toronto Metropolitan University (TMU) for several years. There, he directed the action-research teams leading entrepreneurship and skills-training programs at local, provincial and national levels. He has presented papers on this work at international and national conferences. Prior to TMU, Brian served in previous roles in Financial Services, education and non-profit organizations. He earned a PhD in Systematic Theology from the University of Toronto, and an MBA (Globalization) from the Ted Rogers School of Management at TMU. His passion is shaping emerging leaders and diverse teams for the future of work in a changing economy.

Connect with Brian Robson: Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU)

Ontario Tech University

Toronto Metropolitan University (TMU)

Ted Rogers School of Management

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode on the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by Brian Robson. Brian is the Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union for the Ontario Tech University in Oshawa. It is the university of the Durham region, and that’s where I’m from. Brian, it’s so awesome to have someone on the show today that’s basically from the backyard. How are you?

Brian Robson
Good, thank you. You’re my homie here today.

Sam Demma
It’s good. Yeah, man. Did you grow up in the Durham region or where is home for you?

Brian Robson
I did not. I actually grew up out west. I’ve lived in three different provinces in Canada, four different city centers, but I have been in Durham region for a number of years now. I bought my first house out here and still here, and I’ve lived in Pickering, Whitby, Ajax. So, it has been home now for a long time.

Sam Demma
Did you know when you were growing up, living in different provinces or different cities that one day you would work in education? Or what brought you here in your own career pathway?

Brian Robson
Yeah, that’s a great question. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I did get a sense of that, I guess, sort of mid to late teens. Mid to late teens, just with some stuff that I was involved in, kind of like you, I discovered that I was good at public speaking. And so I had a chance to use that and to be involved in different things where I had a chance to do that. People would say to me, they say, “You’re a teacher. That’s kind of your thing. You’re a teacher kind of guy.” And I sort of stuck and I realized, yeah, I guess that’s kind of what I am. So then when I started my post-secondary education journey, which has been long, I kind of realized that that is where I would like to be, is in the post-secondary space. I don’t want to be a high school teacher, elementary school teacher. I want post-secondary. So I went on then to earn several degrees, including a PhD from the University of Toronto with the intention of being a professor. So that was my goal, that was my career objective. But the reason I wanted to become a professor is because I didn’t want to just be a subject matter expert and I didn’t want to just teach a subject. I wanted to shape students. So my tagline for a long, long time has been empowering or emerging leaders. So I wanted to build leaders. I wanted to educate and empower emerging leaders. And I thought I would do that in the classroom. Now, long story short, that’s actually not how it turned out, but I am doing that. I’m just doing it now outside the classroom in a university context rather than inside the classroom. So things took a turn from where I thought they would go, but I did end up meeting the same objective that I had set out to do.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. It’s interesting that you’ve kind of discerned the age group you wanted to work with while you were still going through school on who you wanted to serve. Why leadership? Why developing leaders? Was there something about your upbringing or childhood that made that a central theme for you?

Brian Robson
Oh man, that’s a really good question. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything explicit, but I was aware, I am aware, I’ve always been aware, all of us are shaped by who our leaders are, right? So whether it’s our parents, or whether it’s our bosses at work, or whether it’s in the school context, whatever, we’re all shaped by our leaders for better or for worse. Even though there’s a trillion books on leadership and all kinds of literature and courses and workshops and resources, we still have, I think, a dearth of really good leaders in our society. And so it’s up to the emerging generations to kind of take up that mantle and to learn how to do it right. And so to learn what true, you know, effective, empowering leadership is really all about. I just sort of knew from, I guess, in my own educational journey that the power of education is where you can do that. It’s a great context for shaping people, not just academically with their courses and with their knowledge, with their academic programs, but way beyond that into sort of more people-building, cultivating values and principles, and finding your place in the world, right?

Sam Demma
When you think of good leaders or great leaders, what are some of the things you think they do differently? Or they do that other not-so-effective leaders might not be doing? I ask it from a personal perspective because, for the first time in my life, I find myself leading others in my own work, and I want to improve myself. I want to become a better leader myself.

Brian Robson
That’s another fantastic question. I think that it’s sort of a mindset and a perspective. What differentiates great leaders from mediocre leaders or poor leaders is really having the right mindset regarding what leadership is. Leadership is not about power or wielding power or having authority over other people. It is about empowerment. There’s a very common term that’s very prevalent in leadership literature, and it’s been around for a long time—even since ancient times. It’s called servant leadership, right? So true, really good leaders are servants. They’re not masters. They are humble, not arrogant. Somebody once asked me—it was actually in a job interview process for a post-secondary school position—they asked me a great question: “What’s the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?” And something came to me quickly. The best leadership advice I ever got was: Don’t own it. What he meant by that was, it’s not actually yours. You have to separate yourself from the thing that you are leading. Great leaders don’t own it because leadership is temporary. You’re going to be replaced someday. You’re not going to be leading that group of people, organization, or company forever. It’s temporary. So don’t own it; instead, see it as something you are stewarding for a while. When you adopt that mindset, it puts you in a better state to treat people well, make the right decisions, avoid selfishness, think big picture, and build things the right way.

Sam Demma
As a leader, you have conversations with so many people every day, and you want to equip them to succeed, move things forward, and feel supported. Sometimes, naturally, you have difficult conversations. How do you approach those as a leader with the people you serve?

Brian Robson
Yeah, that’s another very good question. For me, it’s a lifelong journey. Leadership is a journey, for sure. I’ll be honest—by nature, I hate conflict. As a fifth-generation Canadian, I avoid conflict by instinct. So difficult conversations, the ones you just described, go against the grain of my personality. But you approach them with wisdom. Again, you do it from the perspective that you’re not defending your turf or trying to win a battle for the sake of winning. It’s about doing what’s best for the organization and the person you’re in conflict with. You approach these conversations with humility. It’s not about winning but about reaching a better place in the situation. Listening is crucial. My academic background has trained me to reason and connect the dots with facts. That’s my approach—stick to the facts. Avoid getting personal or emotional, and focus on reasoning through the situation. When you have a conflict, let the facts win. If I’m wrong, the facts will prove it. If the other person is wrong, the facts will show it. And ideally, both of us can come to a shared understanding based on the truth.

Sam Demma
That’s such a great perspective. I ask because I’ve noticed in myself, when I’m having challenging conversations, I sometimes feel the need to win or defend my turf. But I’m recognizing that and trying to improve. So, I really appreciate your insights. You’re clearly passionate about serving students. Although Ontario Tech has a smaller student population, I imagine that creates a lot of beautiful, intimate opportunities. Tell me a little about the school and why you love it so much.

Brian Robson
Yeah, so we talked a little bit off-air about this, but you’re familiar with Durham Region and how multicultural it is. The university reflects that diversity. We’re located in Oshawa, with two campuses: North Oshawa and downtown. It’s largely a commuter school, so most students live off-campus and commute to class. We do have some out-of-province and international students, but the majority are local—people from Durham, East GTA, or York Region. Our student body is incredibly diverse—culturally, academically, and religiously. We’re branded as a STEM university, but we also emphasize “Tech with a Conscience,” which reflects our focus on ethical and social responsibility in technology. As the student union, we serve everyone, meeting them where they are and supporting their unique needs and interests. That’s what makes this role so fulfilling.

Sam Demma
Before your time at Ontario Tech, you were at TMU. What was the difference in your roles of service at each of these universities?

Brian Robson
Very different. TMU is a larger school, also a commuter school, and similarly diverse with many first-generation students. I loved working with both TMU and Ontario Tech students because they’re trailblazers—grateful, hardworking, and not entitled. At TMU, I had various roles, but my focus was on programs for specific populations. These included skills-building and entrepreneurship programs for groups like newcomers, women, Black youth, and students aged 15 to 29. Some programs were federally funded, so we partnered with universities across Canada to deliver them nationally. Here at Ontario Tech, my role is more centralized, focused on serving the entire student body through the union. Both experiences are rewarding but very different in scope and focus.

Sam Demma
Have you always been passionate about entrepreneurship, business, and STEM, or is that just how your career unfolded?

Brian Robson
That’s just how the career unfolded. It wasn’t intentional, but it all fits under my personal mission of empowering emerging leaders. Entrepreneurs are leaders, so it aligned perfectly with my goal of shaping future leaders, even though it happened outside the classroom.

Sam Demma
What are you most excited about this academic year?

Brian Robson
We’ve had the largest first-year class in Ontario Tech’s history, which is exciting. Their energy and enthusiasm are infectious, and we want to build on that momentum. This is my first year seeing a class come in, and I’m looking forward to watching them grow and develop over the next four or five years. They’re the next leaders of the student union, and it’s exciting to be part of their journey.

Sam Demma
Education shapes humans and the future. The work you’re doing is so important. If someone listening wants to connect or ask a question, what’s the best way to reach you?

Brian Robson
LinkedIn is probably the best place to start. I included my LinkedIn profile in the bio I sent you. From there, I’m happy to share my email and connect further.

Sam Demma
Brian, my Oshawa homie, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences, insights on leadership, and passion for education. I hope this academic year is one of the best yet. Keep up the great work, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Brian Robson
Thank you so much for having me, Sam. This has been great—I’ve really enjoyed it. Keep it going!

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Brian Robson

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

November 19, 2024 by Education School Administration Student Leadership Student Success 0

Laura Beltran – Principal at St. Joseph’s Catholic High School

Laura Beltran – Principal at St. Joseph's Catholic High School
About Laura Beltran

Laura Beltran is the Principal of St. Joseph’s Catholic High School in Windsor, Ontario. She has worked for the Windsor-Essex Catholic District School board for the past 31 years. She started her career at Holy Names High School and then moved to a permanent position at St. Joseph’s for the next 12 years. She moved into administration as a vice principal in 2010 and was appointed principal of St. Thomas of Villanova High School in 2021.

She strives to meet the board’s vision of “empowering, inspiring, and knowing her students”. Being kind to one another is a regular part of her daily announcements and reminders to students and staff. She believes that the school can be an example for the larger community of what peace and kindness can do to show young people a world where they are valued and cared for. She coaches a Hockey4Youth program for young women who face the financial challenge of not being able to play hockey or learn to skate. She also loves every opportunity to hold her benevolence cafe where she treats the students to hot chocolate or lemonade while getting to know them. She has a passion for creating a school environment that focuses on equity and inclusion where all students can meet success.

Connect with Laura Beltran: Email | Facebook | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

St. Joseph’s Catholic High School

Windsor-Essex Catholic District School

Hockey4Youth

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam, and today we are joined by a very special guest, Laura Beltran. Laura and I met after doing an engagement at her high school, and I have to tell you, the moment you walk in the doors of St. Joseph’s High School, the energy is palpable. It is something that staff, students, and herself have cultivated. Laura, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show here today. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Laura Beltran
Thanks, Sam, I appreciate it. Looking forward to it.

Sam Demma
So where does your energy come from? Because out of all the principals I’ve crossed paths with or people in education, you got this magnetic energy that doesn’t seem to expire. Where does it come from?

Laura Beltran
I don’t know, I guess it’s my sense of purpose and knowing that this is what I was meant to do. And I have joy every single day I come to work because it’s not like I have a job. I have a vocation that I am absolutely privileged to be able to do and to work with young people. I feed off of their energy and enthusiasm every single day.

Sam Demma
Did you know when you were a student yourself that one day you would be in education, or what brought you down this pathway?

Laura Beltran
No, I absolutely did not. My path was very zigzag in the way that it looked. I always wanted to be a pediatrician. And so I graduated high school, I was a Canadian biology scholar, and that was my pathway, the only pathway I ever thought of. Then I didn’t like the competitive nature of the program. I moved on to sociology, found it interesting but a little too easy. I moved into criminology. From there, I wanted to be a police officer. I applied to Teachers College thinking, well, maybe there is something in there for me. I got into Teachers College, which was highly competitive at the time. I came out as a primary junior teacher teaching little kids and got called to the director’s office within six months of coming out of Teachers College. They said, “We need someone to teach OAC Law and you’re the only one, so are you a good teacher?” I looked at him and said, “I’m a great teacher.” I know that because when I get up in the morning, I want to come to work.

Sam Demma
When you think about great teachers you’ve had in your life or the amazing educators in your own building, what do you think makes a great teacher?

Laura Beltran
Great human beings make great teachers. Those that really care for the students entrusted to them. They get to know them, want to know who these individuals are, and want to help them succeed. They want them to choose pathways of success and go above and beyond every single day, whether in the classroom, outside the classroom, or through extracurricular activities. Those opportunities allow students to really fulfill their purpose in life, be happy in their own lives, feel joy, and achieve success.

Sam Demma
I think going above and beyond and also taking care of your own well-being is important. Because it’s such a challenge when you have this heart of service and want to give, give, give. Sometimes we give so much that we have no health left for ourselves. How do you balance that?

Laura Beltran
That is really true, and I see that with my staff. One thing we do with our staff is always look out for the well-being of others, especially our students, but also ask, what are we doing for ourselves? How do we take those breaks and really take care of ourselves? Sometimes during professional development days, we will take opportunities for mindfulness activities or allow staff to be in one another’s company to revitalize and remember why we do this work every day. Taking those opportunities is really, really important.

Sam Demma
When I was at your school, a lot of the initiatives were student-led. Even the organizing of the entire event, the creation of graphic images, the introductions, the thank-yous, it was all student-led. Where did that perspective or philosophy of making sure students are as involved as possible come from in your educational ideas?

Laura Beltran
I always tell my students that this is their home away from home. Many of our students feel this is the only place that is safe, comfortable, and free from stress or some of the challenges they deal with in their lives. If they can take ownership of this school, it becomes a home, not just a building or a facility. When they know their voice matters and have opportunities to lead activities within the school, you’ll see them rise, shine, and bring out the best part of themselves. That is what we want to see in our kids; then we know we’re successful.

Sam Demma
Do you have an example in your mind of a student who was shy or introverted and, through a leadership opportunity, really saw themselves shine or embrace their skills?

Laura Beltran
I do. I have a story that I will never forget. This was back when I was teaching in a classroom. I found out the day before that I was moving into administration, so I had to tell my students I was leaving and wouldn’t be their classroom teacher anymore. After everyone said their goodbyes, one student stayed behind. This student rarely spoke in class. She said, “I want to thank you because my mom talks about how negative her job is at dinner every night, and it stresses me out. I want to be happy. I see you come into work every day, so joyful, and that’s what I want for me.” This student helped me with a project we did called the Veterans Memory Project. We interviewed local veterans, wrote a book, and presented it to the Windsor Historical Society, the War Museum in Ottawa, and our local legions. She said, “I know my purpose. I won’t waste time finding a job that doesn’t make me happy because every moment counts. You taught me that.” This was a student who didn’t really participate in class, and then you realize the profound effect we have on kids.

Sam Demma
It’s so true. There was one occasion where I delivered a presentation, and a student faced the wall instead of the stage. I thought he wasn’t paying attention. But that night, he emailed me, sharing how much he needed to hear those stories. I created this entire story in my head, feeling annoyed and frustrated, but he was actually connecting deeply. So many teachers pour their hearts and energy into students, wondering if it’s making a difference, but it is. Your story is a beautiful reminder to educators that words, actions, and even our energy matter. In your case, it was the joy you brought to work. Speaking of that, how do you think we best support young people today?

Laura Beltran
There are a few things we do that we’re proud of. First, we provide mental health supports at our school with child and youth workers, psychotherapists, and mental health and addiction nurses. We do Lunch and Learns where our child and youth worker and psychotherapist collaborate on topics that help students, serving them lunch and discussing subjects like productivity and stress management. Additionally, every Friday, we host “Hot Chocolate with Ms. Beltran,” or in warmer weather, “Lemonade with Ms. Beltran.” The kids love it. They line up, and yes, it’s free. We chat, I get to know their names, and I absolutely love it. I wear an apron that says “Hot Chocolate with Ms. Beltran,” and every Friday becomes the Beltran Cafe.

Sam Demma
I’m sure you get some of the best ideas or feedback from students in those spaces.

Laura Beltran
I do. It’s casual, one-on-one, and informal. They bring their friends, we chat, and I get to know them better. I think they understand through that experience that I’m available to them, that there’s no barrier to talking with the principal. Often, they offer to pour their own drink, and I say, “I know you can, but I want to do this for you.”

Sam Demma
In leadership, it’s often said that being visible and accessible—spending time in the school rather than staying in the office—is key. Who has inspired or supported you on your own journey as a leader?

Laura Beltran
I’ve been very fortunate to have colleagues who mentored me and educators who excel in their work. Reflecting on the most effective teachers I had, they were individuals who showed that they loved what they did. There was humor, laughter, and fun activities. I’ve always carried that with me.

Sam Demma
The joy piece is so important. But I imagine there are days where, like anyone, you have to choose joy despite challenging circumstances. How do you center yourself to ensure you show up for people?

Laura Beltran
When I’m having one of those days, I’ll go for a walk around the building or spend time in the hallways, seeking out students. I’ll visit students on spare, kids involved in activities, or go to my life skills area to chat with kids. That grounds me. It reminds me why I’m doing this, gives me a breather, some laughs, and allows me to refocus.

Sam Demma
Do conversations with students help shift your emotional state in those moments?

Laura Beltran
Absolutely. That’s why we got into this—to interact and build relationships with kids. Through those everyday conversations, I learn so much about who they are, what they carry, what they love, and even how they feel about their school and what we could improve. I’ll ask, “How was the game last night? I know you didn’t win, but you played great.” I also try to attend all team games, at least once or twice each season.

Sam Demma
Nice. How’s the team looking out there?

Laura Beltran
They work really hard. And I always tell them, “It’s not about the score but how you carry yourself on the field.”

Sam Demma
A friend of mine told me once, “We’re not just teaching curriculum; we’re teaching character.” And that has stuck with me.

Laura Beltran
Absolutely.

Sam Demma
When dealing with challenging situations, how do you approach difficult conversations with students?

Laura Beltran
It’s important to show them that you’re human, that you don’t expect perfection, and that mistakes are part of growth. We make mistakes, I make mistakes, and young people will make mistakes too. It’s about acknowledging the mistake, discussing how to make it right, and considering what we’ll do differently next time. Discipline is only one part of the process; the educational component is where growth truly happens.

Sam Demma
I made a mistake in grade seven or eight, and a friend got blamed for it instead of me. At home, I started crying. My dad took me back to the school, I confessed, and the principal handled it with restorative questions, giving me an in-school suspension. If my dad had gone straight to punishment, I wouldn’t have learned from it as I did. So it’s wonderful that you focus on humanity and solutions in those moments.

Laura Beltran
Absolutely. I appreciate that you mentioned restorative practices. Sometimes, we bring students together in peer mediation, and they realize the impact of their actions on each other. It’s amazing to witness those “aha” moments, where they truly understand how they’ve affected someone else.

Sam Demma
Empathy is a challenging thing to teach, especially when the brain is still developing. But when a student understands, it makes the work even more fulfilling.

Laura Beltran
It does, and it brings a sense of hope. I tell our students every day, “Be kind to one another, take care of one another.” We can be an example to the larger community of how to treat one another and create peace and hope.

Sam Demma
For an educator listening who might feel burnt out, nervous, or new to the profession, what advice would you give?

Laura Beltran
Don’t give up. Reach out. There are so many educators with experience to share. This is my 31st year, and time flies. The first years are the hardest, but that’s okay. Nobody needs to reinvent the wheel—ask for help, and don’t be afraid to lean on others.

Sam Demma
If someone wanted to connect with you or ask a question, what’s the best way to reach you?

Laura Beltran
You can reach me by email (laura_beltran@wecdsb.on.ca) or on Instagram (@fastballcoachlaura) and Facebook (@lauratillie).

Sam Demma
Laura, this has been such a lovely conversation. Thank you for sharing your beliefs about education, and how giving students time and energy helps them grow. I appreciate it. Wishing you all the best with the school year and coaching. Talk to you soon.

Laura Beltran
Thanks so much, Sam. Take care.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Laura Beltran

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

November 5, 2024 by Education Educator Principals Student Leadership Student Success Teachers Uncategorized 0

Rhae-Ann Holoien — Superintendent of Schools for the Battle River School Division

Rhae-Ann Holoien — Superintendent of Schools for the Battle River School Division
About Rhae-Ann Holoien

Rhae-Ann has over 30 years of experience as an educator and is in her second year as superintendent in the Battle River School Division. She is passionate about fostering educational excellence, supporting staff and students, and ensuring all students have access to high-quality learning opportunities. In addition to her professional role, Rhae-Ann is a dedicated mom, wife, daughter, sister, and grandma.

Connect with Rhae-Ann: Email | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Battle River School Division

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. Today we have a very special guest, Rhae-Ann Holoien. And I go back, I want to say a few years now. She is a ball of energy. She is someone who, if you speak to her long enough, you’ll want to run through a couple, not just one, but a couple of brick walls. She is passionate about education and has been serving young people and educators for a good amount of time now. Brianne, take a moment and just introduce yourself. Thank you, Sam.

Rhae-Ann Holoien
So I’ve been in education for 31 years and you are extremely kind in your introduction of me. I do try to ensure that I have a thought always on my mind that it’s about the students. It’s like that’s our end result. What kind of journey, what kind of experiences do our students have? And I think when you say people will join me, I think those of us in education, we always want to reflect back on that. And that’s why people join us on that journey so we can make it great for students in our schools.

Sam Demma
Did you grow up playing teacher to a dollhouse as a kid and knowing that you wanted to work in education?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
No, but I did grow up, I did a lot of coaching, I did swimming lessons, kind of all of those other things, but I thought I would be a lawyer. Yeah, it kind of changed in my post-secondary journey that I really decided that I loved being teaching and supporting students and being someone who could make a difference in somebody’s life.

Sam Demma
What changed for you in post-secondary that had you alter your pathway?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Maybe some life experiences, and knowing that we need great people in the classroom, and I’m very fortunate to work in a school division. We have great people in the classroom, but that was something that really kind of made my decision for me. I wanted to be one of those people that really stood up for all students and ensured that everyone had great opportunities in schools.

Sam Demma
I think the idea of making sure that every student feels like they belong, like they’re supported and advocated for is so important. Absolutely.

Rhae-Ann Holoien
I think having my own children made me a little more humble. It kind of opened up my experiences as well because I’ve had to advocate for my own children as well and I think I know the education system and sometimes it’s difficult navigating and knowing where the answers are where the support can be so I think I really appreciate that we need to be that person for all the students in our schools and those students in our classrooms. We have to support them so they have those great opportunities to succeed and let the parents know how to advocate and how to ensure their kids are being successful.

Sam Demma
One of the things I observed with you and your team is you’re always looking for ways to improve student well-being and support the students in the classroom. It seems like every conversation you have relates to that and involves data and making the best possible decisions for young people. What drives that passion?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
What drives that mission? You know, and that has been something I can say that even prior to the pandemic, I have been very focused on ensuring we take care of ourselves, that we’re healthy. I come from a background where I was a student athlete and a university athlete. I’ve raised my kids to be healthy and think of their overall well-being. There’s not just one aspect of well-being. And I think, again, some of the things that I know I want to translate and support so all our students and staff can be healthy and ensure there’s positive well-being in our entire division. If we look after our staff, we obviously look after our students, but there’s some things that we can do along the way. And, you know, hopefully we make a big impact in that.

Sam Demma
You and I were just chatting before we started the podcast about some of the things we strive to do each day to make sure we can show up to the best of our abilities. I was telling you about blocking out lunch and making sure I honor that time on the calendar and having the humility to ask for help when you know you need it, but might not want to ask for it. What are some of the practices you put in place in your own life as a leader to ensure that you can show up at full capacity and to the best of your abilities?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
I appreciate that question because last year I tried to do a few things and now I’m more intentional this year. So I wake up an hour early this year and I go for a walk. I’m trying to ensure that I can have a decent break and have that lunch or that reflection time as well. I like to, you know, a mentor once told me, we carry our weather. It’s leaders. People look at us. They look to you to see how a meeting is going to go or how you’re approaching. And so the quote is, we carry our weather. So before I enter the room, I like to check myself. We carry our weather. I want to be positive. I want people to know that we’ve got this. We’re a great team. We can support each other. And I hope when I go into the room, that’s the perception of the people in the room, that we’re supporting each other. And so, that is something that I do.

Sam Demma
I love that quote. I also was thinking, I had a young person walk up to me after a presentation recently at a school in Richmond Hill, and he said this quote to me. He said, “The way the world sees us is the way we see the world.” And you have such a positive outlook on the world and you have such an optimistic outlook on the world that I’m certain when people are perceiving you, they’re looking at you in the same way you’re looking at the world. So yeah, I have no doubt that every room you walk in, the perception is awesome.

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Well, again, that is very kind because I do see the world as a very positive place. I feel that we can overcome our challenges and sometimes we just need a little more support to be able to do that, but I also believe we’re not alone in that. And as educators, as a leader in the school division, I honestly believe I can support people to overcome their challenges to be successful.

Sam Demma
And that’s really the role of a great leader, is to remove those obstacles from the people you serve, whether it’s the students or the teachers. How do you manage people effectively? What are some things you keep top of mind when dealing with other humans?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Well, one, I think deep in our hearts we have to value all the work that people do. People work very hard in our school division. I’m very proud of the work we do. I continue with the message that it’s every student every day of success. That’s the vision of Battle River School Division. And that’s honestly the message that I carry forward. We need to think of every student every day. So, part of it is just ensuring that people are valued, people are respected. If you’re having a conversation, sometimes they are tough conversations that we need to have, but it’s ensuring that people feel that we’re listening, we hear them, and we’ll work together for the best end result we can have.

Sam Demma
You have been in many different positions in education, in a few different school boards. What are some of the moments in your career that were pivotal for you? Maybe it was a mentor you’ve had or a change in a role that opened up your eyes to some new opportunity for impact and to be of service. Is there any pivotal moments in your educational journey that you think about?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
You know, I do have some amazing mentors that have been very positive and supportive and, you know, made me reflect and maybe do things a little bit differently. And so it’s great to know there’s other, there’s great adults out there that are looking after our students. But some of the pivotal moments are with the kids. And when the students notice that they can make a difference and they want to share that with us, and they want to share their learning and share celebrations of success, those are the pivotal moments that I know we are making a difference.

Sam Demma
When you think about students and the pivotal moments when they approach you or a teacher and share passionately their interests or their curiosities or their ability to make an impact, are there any students, and you don’t have to name any of them, but are there any student examples that really come to the forefront of your mind of a young person who maybe was really struggling and through education found a new beginning or made some great improvements?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Absolutely. I can think of a number of students who, and they might not have approached me, but they might have approached a teacher, a principal, an EA, a bus driver, and you hear those students, you hear that story. And it fills our hearts that somebody has made such a difference that they now feel successful, they now feel that they’re able to learn or able to go to school without a challenge. And someone has been there to support them, absolutely. I have a list of students who I’m so proud of the work staff have done to work with our students.

Sam Demma
What do you think some of the opportunities or challenges are that exist right now in education?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
I think opportunities are, you know, the career pathways that students have. I reflect back to when I was graduating from school, and I’m not sure we were directed, you know, into all the various things that one could possibly, you know, do when they grow up. There’s so many opportunities for our students to be successful in life, and there’s different learning, different travel, different volunteerism, different ways to fill one’s heart to be successful for the rest of their life. And I think that’s a great opportunity for our students. I’m very positive about the future. I think we have great students in our schools, great student leaders, great teachers working with them, and I’m just very positive for the next generation of leaders and people in our world to take care of what’s going to happen.

Sam Demma
I think the challenges are also opportunities if you look at them as obstacles to be overcome. Are there any challenges that you think are prevalent today with young people or education?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Well, one of the challenges, you know, will be mental health. I think, you know, although I might see the world through rose-colored glasses, I think right now we’re living in a time where people need additional support and there’s probably not the support needed for mental health in our system. And hopefully we’re addressing it, hopefully we’re supporting our students, hopefully they know when they transition to adulthood, they know where to go to obtain support of the ways people need to be aware of to navigate life successfully.

Sam Demma
Yeah, it’s so true. And I think if people started thinking about their physical wellness the same way, thinking about their mental wellness and mental health the same way they do their physical health, we would have so many more conversations about those challenges and how we could improve that aspect of our lives. And you’re doing a great job with Stephen and the team to work on those things. And what are some of the things you’re excited about this school year with the Bow River School Division?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Oh, I am excited about the learning opportunities for our students. Last year, we revised our three-year education plan. So we are diving into well-being. That’s one of our priorities. So, I’m really excited about that. And supporting our team to be able to support our students in our schools under that well-being priority is great. Our other priority is student success for all, which is great because we continue, as you say, to look at data, make decisions based on where our gaps and where our weaknesses celebrate our successes. And our other priority is enhanced learning and working environments. And I’m very excited about that as well. We didn’t just want it to be the learning environment. We have so many schools and facilities that we also want a positive working environment. So then the adults know that that’s very important as well. So I’m excited about all of those things moving forward into this year. It’s some great work we are doing.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. I’m excited to hear about the improvements and iterations to programming, but also the physical spaces that students and staff and teachers are using. When you think about resources that have been helpful to you among your journey, I know you mentioned mentors have been pivotal. Has there been any resources that have also been really instrumental in your own learning or development that you’d like to share with others?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
Absolutely, there have been some resources. Some of the same resources across our province, which is generally very supportive for collaboration. But a couple things that are near and dear to my heart, I have this book with me, it’s Beyond Monet, and it talks about pedagogy and high yield instructional strategies. And I’ve been probably using that book for 15 years. And that’s near and dear to my heart. We always want to talk about engaging students in the classroom and we talk about what is going to make a difference for each and every student. So that’s kind of a book I have near and dear but we do talk about other resources for engaging students in the classroom which is so very important to me.

Sam Demma
One of the things I remember is when I was with you and Stephen and we were doing some work, you enjoy every opportunity you have to visit the schools. What are those experiences like when you do step into the school buildings?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
So positive. I really like to get back to what are we about, we’re about the kids. So when I am in schools, I like to visit with students. I visit with staff. I ask them about like right now What are they excited about for the school year? What’s happening in their schools? How was summer? So that positive energy It makes it, you know, kind of goes back to I’m not just somebody working in an office, but I have the ability to impact all of these students and I like that. They know who I am. I like that they can have a conversation with me about the great things that are happening in the schools or what should we do differently. So I have already been up and out in our schools and talking to students and, you know, seeing what’s going to be exciting for them this year.

Sam Demma
Lots of exciting stuff going on this year? Or who you got?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
I believe that in this office, I need to cheer for the Oilers because we have a lot of Oiler fans. We have a couple of brave Calgary flame fans and I give them lots of credit for wearing their flames jersey on the Jersey days. But my son probably wouldn’t forgive me either if I don’t say yay, Oilers.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about the year ahead, some of your journeys and steps through education, the resources that have been helpful. If there is an educator listening to this right now who’s feeling a little bit burnt out, they are uncertain about the future or doubting their own abilities to make a difference, what words of advice would you share with them as we wrap up today’s conversation?

Rhae-Ann Holoien
I would say to reflect and think about why they got into education in the first place and how can they make a difference in each student’s life because when you’re in the classroom, when you’re driving the bus, when you’re working with kids, there are some challenging things. But when we think that we have the ability to impact students every moment, every day, for all of their school career, we’re really making a difference, the work that we do. And they need to sometimes step back and enjoy those small moments of success.

Sam Demma
Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I hope you have a phenomenal year ahead.

Rhae-Ann Holoien
You too, it’s been great chatting. I think you’re such a spark of positive energy that I always appreciate talking to you so I can get back to reflecting what’s important in our work and you help spread that message. So thanks, Sam.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Rhae-Ann Holoien

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

October 29, 2024 by Battle School Division Education Student Success Superintendent Uncategorized 0

David Kelly, Ed.D — Principal at Nixa High School

David Kelly, Ed.D — Principal at Nixa High School
About David Kelly

David Kelly has spent the past 20 years in secondary education serving students across multiple districts in Southwest Missouri. He received his Bachelor’s of Science Degree in Social Studies Education in 2005 and began a teaching career in the Dallas County R-1 school district. Following a three-year stint there, he began teaching social studies at Nixa High School in Nixa, Missouri.

In 2012, Dr. Kelly earned a Master’s Degree in Educational Leadership from Evangel University. That fall, he accepted his first administration position as an assistant principal at Hollister High School in Hollister, Missouri. In the fall of 2013, he returned to Nixa Public Schools, where he served as assistant principal.

Dr. Kelly earned his Doctoral Degree in Educational Leadership in Curriculum, Instruction, and Technology at Evangel University in August of 2018. Since 2019, he has served as the Principal of Nixa High School. During his tenure, Nixa High School was named a Missouri Gold Star school and was awarded a National Blue Ribbon by the US Department of Education.

Dr. Kelly has been named the Missouri Administrator of the Year by both the Missouri Interscholastic Press Association in 2021 and the Speech and Theatre Association of Missouri in 2022. He was just named the Southwest Missouri Principal of the Year by the Southwest Missouri chapter of the Missouri Association of Secondary School Principals (MoASSP) and will move forward as a nominee for Missouri Principal of the Year.

In addition to his role as principal, Dr. Kelly works with new administrators as a mentor and facilitator with the Missouri Leadership Development System. He is passionate about developing teachers and creating a climate where students maximize their potential. He currently resides in Nixa, Missouri, with his wife, and two-time Evangel graduate, Dr. Morgan Kelly, and their three children, Addison, Ansley, and Grayson.

Connect with David Kelly: Email | Facebook | Linkedin | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Nixa High School
Evangel University
Missouri Leadership Development System

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam. And today we are joined by David Kelly. I met David maybe a year ago at Nixa High School and just heard that their football team has kicked off the season this year with two wins. They have a 2-0 record.

Sam Demma
David, how is that making the school culture shift? And please take a moment to introduce yourself.

David Kelly
Yeah, so I am David Kelly. I’m a principal of Nixa High School in Nixa, Missouri. We’re located in the southwest part of the state. There are approximately 2,000 kids in our school and we serve a community of about 30,000 people. But yeah, we thought we were going to have a pretty good football team.

David Kelly
We had our first test last Friday and ended up beating a team that has won, I believe, it’s 16 state championships since 2000, so they’re always good, always competitive. And we beat them 55-21, and so a pretty good gauge on where our year is going to go, barring any major injuries or anything. But in the United States, anytime your football team is off to a good start, it just helps the whole culture of your building. It helps your community. It’s something everybody can rally around and get excited about.

Sam Demma
So it’s a lot of fun. Sports and actually not even just sports, but extracurricular activities students can get involved in, have such a tremendous impact on your character building, on your leadership development. Why do you think extracurricular activities in sports are pivotal for young people, especially students to get involved in?

David Kelly
So I think for most kids, the teenage years for a lot of kids are years where they’re very self-centered and I don’t blame teenagers for that. I just think it’s where they’re at developmentally, and sports clubs, extracurricular activities, band, choir, whatever it may be, it becomes about more than just yourself and I think it helps you learn that there is more out there than just you, and the world is a bigger place than just you. It makes you accountable to other people, so your decisions now aren’t only impacting you, they’re also impacting your team or your organization. Those students also understand, like, when they go somewhere, their team is represented on their chest. And so, it’s not just about the team, it’s also about their community, and the way that they act, the way that they behave says something about their community when they have it, you know, written across the front of their chest. So yeah, I think honestly here it’s probably one of the best at-risk programs we have and just as a way to keep kids engaged, keep them excited about school. And you know, those kids we have found here, over 70% of our students are involved in some sort of club or extracurricular activity. Their GPA on a 4.0 scale is usually around 3.4.

David Kelly
Their attendance rates are better, higher ACT scores. So there’s a direct correlation that we can provide the evidence of that kids that are involved just do better. But I think it’s about realizing that there’s more to this world, there’s more to this community than just me. And it helps them to be more empathetic, more responsible. And those are character traits that we want all of our kids to graduate from and carry

Sam Demma
with them into the world. You don’t know this, but I did a presentation for a conference in Idaho. No, this one was in Arkansas. And at the event, I wore the red Nixa shirt on stage. And people were asking, did you see these photos? I wore the merch proudly. And everyone was asking me afterwards if I went to this school and where it came from. And I said, I got this shirt from where Jason Bourne is from.

David Kelly
That’s right, that’s right. So the birthplace of Jason Bourne. So yeah, no, I actually saw a post that you had put on Facebook, I believe. And I was like, oh man, he’s wearing our shirt. So anyway, yeah, that’s awesome. Very proud, very proud.

Sam Demma
Tell me about your journey into education. Did you know you always wanted to work in education?

David Kelly
So here’s the deal. I actually love telling this story because I think it’s a lot of young people, it’s kind of their path. My mom is an educator. She was an elementary teacher. She did it for over 40 years, which is a long time. I went to college and majored in accounting. And between my sophomore and junior year, I was sitting in a baseball game and I ran into my high school principal. And it just happened. I had a younger brother playing. And so I went and watched my younger brother play. My high school principal was there. He had a son playing. And we talked for two hours from before the game all through the game. But the gist of our conversation was he asked me, he goes, what are you majoring in?

David Kelly
And I said accounting. And he goes, oh, my goodness, that is the boring thing that I’ve ever heard of. And he goes, you’re going to be so bored in that profession. He goes, what are you doing? And he just, he kind of was just giving me a hard time. And I go, what, you have a better idea? And he goes, yeah. He goes, you need to be a teacher and a coach. And I go, man, I’ve thought about it. And I said, but he goes, let me guess. He goes, you don’t want to be poor. And I said, well, honestly, that’s probably the number one reason. Like, teachers don’t make much money. I’ve heard accountants make decent money. Um, and, uh, he goes, he told me at that time, he goes, money doesn’t buy happiness. And, uh, anyway, long story short, we had a two-hour conversation about it. Um, this was between my sophomore, junior year.

David Kelly
I went back that fall, changed my major, um, to education. And so that’s how I, that is really how I got into education. I had always thought about it. Um, had always been a direction I wanted to go, but it was just, I could never commit to it, um, until I had that conversation with him. So, uh, it’s kind of neat that my high school principal is the one that, uh, set me on this path. Um, and then now here I am as a high school principal. So it’s kind of a neat, neat transition for me. Um, but really I got into, I really wanted to coach. I was an athlete. I played college baseball. I like any kid in America, or anywhere in the world, you know, you want to play professional sports. And I thought I had, that was the dream. And I had two injuries in college that made it very obvious that wasn’t going to be the path for me. And so I decided coaching would be where it was at, but I quickly fell in love with the classroom and with teaching because on the coaching side, you really get to know one type of kid, but on the teaching side, you get to know all kids. And every kid has a story, and every kid deserves a chance. And that’s what really built the passion for education in this career and me was working with kids across all spectrums. So I need to take a drink of water real quick.

Sam Demma
Yeah, you know, it was so obvious that you had this passion for education when I came and visited the school because every hallway we walked down, every student knew your name, you knew every student’s name. It was such a cool thing to witness. How do you build strong relationships with young people?

David Kelly
So I think that’s the whole key to this whole thing. And it really speaks to our why though. And I just, I mean, I think we just have to, if you built relationships with kids, they will walk through a wall for you. They’ll do about anything for you. And, but part of it is just showing that you care. And, you know, I know that there’s kind of an old mindset of kids should just respect us because we’re older than them. And that’s just not the way the world works, to be honest. And a lot of kids, if you just treat them with respect, they’re going to show respect back to you. So I think a big component of it is modeling. You model the behaviors that you want to see, and you model the expectation that you want to see. And when you set a really high bar for kids, they will live up to that expectation. And I’ve seen that over and over again, but I think it’s just showing compassion to kids, being real with kids. They need to see us as people and not just educators. And I think the more that you can do that, the more moments that you can have with kids. Where they’re just seeing you be a person, being a human, and the way that you carry yourself is something then that they see and they’re like, you know, this guy does, he does care about me. He doesn’t just say it. But when I see him in the halls, he says hi.

David Kelly
Um when I when i’ve had issues I and i’ve i’ve been able to talk to him and he listens and um, I think those are things that you know, I think over time i’ve been I mean I am fortunate i’ve been here for Uh, this is my 15th year in this district. So i’ve had a lot of time here. So i’ve had siblings i’ve had um I actually this is crazy, but one of the girls that I, when I first started teaching here, she actually has a daughter that’s a freshman this year. So anyway, so I, it’s, it’s a little early, but I am in that point in my career where that’s starting to happen. I also have a daughter now here that’s a freshman. So, so I know some of her friends, but it’s just, I think it’s just about how we carry ourselves and how we approach each situation and recognizing that each kid’s unique, each kid has a story to tell and we can’t treat them all the same because they are all different and carrying.

Sam Demma
Different things in their backpacks. I appreciate the pulling of the metaphor and analogy. What are some of the resources that have been pivotal in your own development or things that have inspired you to continue to grow and evolve as a leader yourself?

David Kelly
So I think for me, I do like to, so I wish I was an avid reader, but I’m like a cliff notes guy. So like I like to find the synopsis of the book and then that leads me to the main point. And so I do read a lot. I love leadership stuff, anything about leadership. And I think you can take leadership concepts and you can apply them to the classroom. And every teacher is a leader, whether that’s in their classroom, whether that’s in amongst their colleagues. But a lot of those principles that we have that you can learn through those books are things that you can carry with you no matter where you’re at in your life. So I will tell you one of my favorite stories, and really it’s my why, and that’s something that I try to. Convey to teachers all the time, is what is your why? Why do you do what you do? Because, you know, you may love math, but at the end of the day, to be a great math teacher, you also have to have a passion for kids and for them being successful.

David Kelly
So, one of my favorite stories on my why and why I think it impacted me to the point that I carry it with me every day. I had a student my first year, I was teaching in a very rural school, honestly it was a high poverty district, and they had great kids, they worked hard, most of their families were hard workers, but it was just in one of those depressed areas of the country. And there was a kid and this kid would come to school every day. He worked really hard, he played football. He wanted to play basketball, that wasn’t really his sport, but he played baseball. And so I knew him from coaching, but I also knew him as a student in my class. And one day I noticed that he was sleeping through my class and he was a high energy kid and that just wasn’t normal. It was a Monday morning. And so after class, I just pulled him out in the hallway. I’m like, man, I said, everything okay? You know, are you doing all right? And he goes, you know, he said, Coach Kelly, he said, I’ve been, he said, this weekend was kind of rough. And I was like, well, tell me about it. I said, you know, cause you’re not gonna sleep through the whole day here at school. Like you got stuff you gotta do. You got practice after school. And he said, well, he said, we ran out of food over the weekend and he said when we ran out of food, he said all we had was a bowl of sugar in the house. And he goes, so for starting for lunch on Saturday, I got a spoonful of sugar for lunch. And he said he had three siblings. He said my mom, my dad and the siblings, we all got a spoon and we got one spoonful of sugar for each of the meals and I’m like oh my goodness I’m like Dustin I can’t even imagine man and I said are you I said what what do you need obviously you need food I said let’s go get you some food I’m gonna find you some right now so he’d gotten breakfast that morning at school but we got him with the counselors we got him some food he honestly was a kid that he he always kind of you know he wasn’t all he was never dressed the nicest, but his clothes never looked awful. We were able to get him on a backpack program where we were able to supply food through the weekends. A couple of weeks later, one of our football coaches, because I let all the coaches know at that point, like, hey, we need to keep our eye on this kid. His circumstance is not good. And so one of the football coaches is driving home from practice and sees him walking. And he was about five miles from the school. And so he pulls over. He’s like, man, Dustin, what are you doing? He’s like, well, I’m walking home. My parents said, if I want to play, I have to find my own ride home. And nobody would give me a ride home. And we were like, man, you’re not going to walk home ever again. Like we’re going to rally around you. So we came up with a schedule. So there was a different player that drove him home. Unfortunately, his house was a ways out of the way for everybody. But we got him a ride home every day after school. We made sure he was fed on the weekends. If the team did anything that cost money, we made sure he didn’t have to pay for any of it. And that kid, he was a freshman that year and I left after my his junior year I came to Knicks.

David Kelly
After his junior year but like that kid I still stay in contact with that kid and that kid is a he is a like a middle manager for a company here in Springfield which is the the big town close to us and he he made something out of himself and he broke that cycle of poverty for him and his family and like that is my why. You know I love finding those kids and just finding a way and really doing everything we can to make sure that those kids are successful because you know that kid had he not I don’t know I don’t know how his story ends but had he not been falling asleep in my class on that that Monday morning and I don’t take the time to take him outside the classroom and talk to him, like we have no idea. And eventually you hope somebody would have caught it, but you also never know. And so him and I are still in contact. He has a, he actually has a couple of little girls now.

David Kelly
And it’s awesome because he’s not living a life, he’s not living the life that he grew up in. And to me, that’s what a public educator is all about, is taking kids and breaking that cycle for them. And in the United States, we’re so lucky. We’re so lucky that we have public education, because without it, that kid, just that cycle just continues to repeat for that kid. And he’s living a life that he probably never imagined that he would have lived. And it’s not me. It was the school that rallied around him. But it was an educator that took just two seconds out of the day to take him outside and be like, man, you don’t normally sleep through class, what’s going on? And from that point forward, really take some steps to rally around him and change a kid’s life. And to me, that’s what it’s all about. And that happened, where I’m fortunate as an educator, I feel like, is that happened to me my first year of teaching. Some educators, it takes their whole life before they have a story like that. And I’m just, I feel like it’s such a blessing. Like that kid, I know, and he’s told me before that I’ve been a blessing to him, but I’m like, no man, you’ve been a blessing to me. Because I, like telling that story right now, I get goose bumps thinking about it. And it gets me fired up.

Sam Demma
The thing I think about often is the students who, we have no idea how much they’re going through and the way an educator is showing up is making a difference and the educator has no idea. So sometimes you don’t get that story, but the way you show up every single day has an impact. Regardless of if you find out what’s going on in the life of that student. And of course, the goal is to always get to know your students, but even the students in other classrooms that you don’t teach, that you walk past in the hallway and you smile and give them a compliment or ask them a genuine question for you. It may seem insignificant, but for that person, it could be this little moment in their day that they remember for the week or that they talk about later that evening and you go home not even thinking about it, but it was a meaningful moment for them and yeah, I think that’s what education is.

Sam Demma
All about. It’s like creating these meaningful moments in the lives of young people that help them see their potential and move forward and building better humans. Like that’s really what school is. And I just, I wanna say thank you. For the way that you show up and all of the staff at NXA. There may be an educator listening to this right now so inspired and just covered in goosebumps and they wanna connect with you. What would be the best way for them to get in touch or reach out or ask a question?

David Kelly
So, I found out like I think this year’s been the year I’m kind of getting old. So, unfortunately, I’m going to say this answer, you’re going to be like, you’re old. But anyways, honestly, email is probably the best way. And that’s davidkelly@nixaschools.net. And Kelly is just K-E-L-L-Y. There’s no E and it’s not E-Y. That’s a mistake a lot of people make. But that’s probably the best way. I do have a Facebook, I have a Twitter. DavidKelly10 is the Twitter handle. But I actually love talking to educators. I love sharing stories. Because one thing that I’ve found is a lot of educators have a story also. And so, so here and there a while. So that energy just feeds off one another and really builds.

Sam Demma
Capacity for what we do. Thank you so much, David, for taking the time to share some of your philosophies around building better relationships with young people, supporting students, making a difference in their lives. I hope that things continue to progress well with the football team this season.

David Kelly
Yeah, absolutely. Keep up the amazing work. It’s inspiring. Yeah, well, thank you, and I appreciate you having me on and giving me a chance to share some wisdom but also share that story because it is a story worth telling, and there’s hundreds of those across our country and educators everywhere, but I think anybody can make an impact on kids, and I just always tell myself, too, a lot of times we pick on the next generation, but this generation. Is truly going to change the world. They are going to change the world. They’re a great group of kids. Their vision, their mindset, I really believe they’re going to change the world for the better, but they need good adults in their life that are going to be positive role models and help drive that change and build in them the desire and the power to make the changes happen.

Sam Demma
You and I share that belief, and I think you’re at the forefront of leading the change.

David Kelly
So keep up the great work, and we’ll talk again soon. So keep up the great work, and we’ll talk again soon. All right, sounds good, thank you.

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The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

October 24, 2024 by Education Principals Student Leadership Student Success Uncategorized 0

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