Student Leadership

Russ Sommerfeldt – Principal at the Magrath Junior/Senior High School

About Russ Sommerfeldt

Russ Sommerfeldt is a dedicated educational leader with over a decade of experience in K-12 education. He is currently the principal of Magrath Junior/Senior High School, a role he has held for 3.5 years, where he oversees a student population of 430 students from grades 7-12. Russ has a strong background in educational leadership, having previously served as Vice Principal and Athletic Director at the same school.

In addition to his administrative roles, Russ has been actively involved in athletics. He served as the assistant coach for the Senior Varsity Zeniths basketball team, helping lead them to back-to-back zone championships in 2017 and 2018. His dedication to coaching and mentoring students instilled teamwork, discipline, and resilience in the athletes he worked with.

Throughout his career, Russ has demonstrated a passion for teaching and integrating technology into classrooms. He holds a Master of Education degree from Walden University, where he focused on the effective integration of technology in K-12 education. He also earned a Bachelor of Education/Bachelor of Management from the University of Lethbridge.

Russ has taught a variety of subjects, including social studies, science, and robotics. His interest in emerging technologies and their potential to enhance learning drives his approach to education. As a principal, Russ is committed to fostering a positive learning environment, supporting student success, and helping his staff grow as educators. He is also a devoted family man, finding joy in outdoor adventures with his wife and five children.

Connect with Russ Sommerfeldt: Email

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Magrath Junior/Senior High School

Walden University

University of Lethbridge

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by Russ Sommerfeld. Russ is the principal of McGrath High School. We met a few months ago. I was telling him about a marathon that I was going to be running in October, and we have since ran the marathon.

Sam Demma
I’m still alive. The legs are still moving. He gave me some great advice because he’s run a few of them with his brother, from what I remember from our previous conversation. He’s passionate about education, passionate about athletics.

Sam Demma
Russ, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show here today.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Hey Sam, I really appreciate it, it’s an honor.

Sam Demma
Tell us a little bit about how you got involved in education.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, so I actually, my father was an educator, so I followed in his footsteps. He started out as just an ordinary classroom teacher. He went on to become a guidance counselor. And then from there, worked his way into administration as a vice principal, and then eventually

Russ Sommerfeldt
as he ended his career as a superintendent. And so I’ve always looked up to my father. He’s been a role model in my life and he definitely inspired me to go into this field of work and showed me how rewarding it can be to help kids and to help them succeed.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And one of the greatest things he ever taught me was the greatest gift that you can give a kid is confidence and building their confidence. And so I’ve tried to keep that as a motto and remember that throughout my career thus far. Because I think it is key, the world in so many ways tries to pull people down and diminish who they are and what they can do. And we play an important role as educators to help kids believe in themselves and inspire them to think that, you know what, despite all that noise out there in the world, they really can do great things.

Sam Demma
My teacher, Mr. Loudfoot, gave me belief in myself and I still think it’s one of the greatest gifts he ever gave me as a student in this classroom. Now I also was given that gift from my parents, but I more so expected my parents to give it to me and when the teacher was just as certain that I should believe in myself as my own parents were it just, it took my belief in myself to a whole another level because I expected it from them,

Sam Demma
but didn’t really expect it from him. So I couldn’t agree more as a young person who’s closely removed from school and can still reflect on that experience pretty clearly. I think you’re so right. Did your dad also run marathons or are you and your brother the two athletic beasts in the family?

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, you know, my dad isn’t necessarily a runner. My brother was the one that got into it and then he inspired me. It was actually just coming off of COVID, tail end of COVID. I happen to be visiting him. He lives down in Arizona and he said, you know what, I’m running this marathon, why don’t you start training? You got time, we’ve got six months till this thing happens. And so he says, there’s this app you can download and we can communicate, you know, you’re in Alberta, Canada, I’m in Phoenix, Arizona, and we can train together. And so I thought, oh, that does not sound like fun at all. But there was something about that conversation that day that kept coming back to me.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And so I did, I said, let’s do it. And the rest is history, I guess, in terms of me becoming a runner. Because I was not a distance runner in school growing up. Track and field, I would do the 100 meter and nothing longer. So I didn’t ever see myself as a distance runner, but now I would say that I am, and I really enjoy it.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Especially with a leadership position at the school, and I think all leaders could say the same thing. There’s a lot of things that happen in a day. There’s a lot of stresses and a lot of things on your mind and it’s a great outlet to let go of some of those things and to really take care of yourself for your own wellness.

Sam Demma
When you think about your journey through education, sounds like you were inspired by your dad and loved the idea of making a positive contribution in the lives of young kids. What was your first role? And take us through that journey that brought you to McGrath today.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, so it’s funny enough, but when I went through university, my last teaching internship before I became a full-fledged teacher was actually at McGrath High School. Oh, no way.

Russ Sommerfeldt
I just had an awesome experience. I loved the school so much. And so basically, after I graduated, they didn’t have a position right at that very moment, but I went and taught at the high school I attended when I was in high school for a semester, and I enjoyed every minute of that, but the teacher that I was filling in for was coming back. And then later on, six months later, four months later, they had an opening at McGrath and I was like, you gotta be kidding me, this is awesome. Like I can go back to the place that I love. And so I started out teaching social studies, science, and I started out as a classroom teacher here. Loved every minute of it. Got involved with athletics through coaching, predominantly coached some basketball. Started off at the grade eight level in junior high. Just tried to figure out where can I help out because a school does not run without a lot of volunteer hours from teachers and community members. And so I got to know a lot of people through that process. It’s also interesting how you get to know kids outside of the classroom too.

Russ Sommerfeldt
When you go on maybe a trip with them or at a practice, that influence that you can have have goes much deeper when you see them, and when they see you in a different light as well, not just someone talking at the front of a classroom or trying to teach them something, but the relationship that’s forged is way deeper when you can work with them in a few different ways. And so yeah, I mean, I fell in love with McGrath and then eventually some things opened up in terms of people retire and so on and so forth. And there was other opportunities that presented themselves as well at the school.

Sam Demma
When you think about folks who have helped you in your professional development as an educator, I mean, it does again sound like your dad played a really big role, but is there anyone else that’s top of mind that you think this person really changed the way I thought about certain things?

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, there’s lots of people. And I feel like we live in a great… I feel like I live in a great area of Alberta where there’s a lot of really good educators. And so just the people that I would brush shoulders with in my…we used to call them a professional learning community. And we would meet every quarter or so, and just rubbing elbows with those teachers who were veteran teachers that would show me, hey, have you ever tried this? Or what about this? And those people really shaped the way I thought. On a professional level, like some of the books that I’ve read, I would say Todd Whitaker, his work is incredible, What Great Teachers Do Differently. His work really resonates with me a lot. And he actually came to our school division to start the year off this year, so we heard him speak to us in person, which was great. So I think his work’s been instrumental in kind of my thought process and some of the things that I’ve implemented in my own practices. Throughout my master’s I read a few books by a guy named Will Richardson who he was he’s a very innovative thinker. He talks a lot about how the traditional model of school is broken and how we need to change it and so that having that in my mind has has made me take some risks and try new things and try to figure out how we can better prepare these kids for the future because essentially the school system has been the same since the industrial era, right? It’s almost like the factory model of we’re mass producing kids, you know, and it doesn’t necessarily work.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And so we have to be creative in our thinking and in the way we do things in education now.

Sam Demma
When you think of students within the schools you’ve served, is there any that come to mind that were really struggling and over a period of time made some significant improvements in their own self-confidence? And if it’s a serious story, you could definitely change their name. The reason I bring it up is because a lot of educators don’t get physically thanked by the students themselves because maybe they don’t have the confidence to even walk up to the teacher and tell them how big of a difference they’ve made in their confidence, or they realize it 10 years after they graduate and have no way of getting back in touch with that individual. And so there’s an educator definitely listening to this right now who may be doubting the impact they’re creating and hearing about a story of how education or a teacher or even yourself had impacted a student might remind them what’s possible.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, and I probably don’t have any monumental stories right off the top of my head, but I’m reminded of one even this year. I had a student come into my office, has since graduated, and this particular student didn’t really like to attend school all that much. Attitude-wise, they were kind of, eh, I don’t know if school is important. But when they came back to my office this year, at the start of the school year, as a 23 or 24-year-old person that’s in university, they had a huge smile on their face, a whole bunch of energy around what they were doing. And they were currently in university, and they thanked me. And I was like, well, I don’t remember doing anything out of the ordinary other than being here every day. But I think the impact that we have on kids is way more than we know.

Russ Sommerfeldt
Even if it’s nothing specific that we did, it’s just believing in them each and every day and never giving up on them. And so, yeah, that comes to mind as one. But there’s a lot of kids out there, too, that, you know, some, they don’t have the support at home necessarily. And so they come, they walk through the doors here at school and the adults here are really the only champion that they have or so that they feel. And I’m sure that their parents are rooting for them as much as they can, but whatever, for whatever reason, the relationship isn’t quite what they would like it to be. And so we play a huge role that way too, just to, you know, listen to kids, be there for them and keep cheerleading.

Sam Demma
I think it’s so important too. There’s some situations where kids are coming to school looking specifically for learning and connections with other kids. And there’s other kids who are coming to school looking for a safe space and looking for food to eat and looking for a totally different set of needs than what other young people might be looking for. And it’s important to recognize that every kid is carrying a different backpack, that they all have different, they all have those different challenges.

Sam Demma
I think that education is one of the most important ways to shape the future, and you’re doing amazing work, and everyone at McGrath is as well, but it comes with its own set of challenges also. What do you think some of the challenges are in education these days?

Sam Demma
Well, I think I’ve noticed that student engagement is a really tough thing.

Russ Sommerfeldt
You know, kids, when they go home, they can learn what they want to learn instantaneously on YouTube or on TikTok. And it is so engaging that when they come to school and maybe the method or the model of that learning is different, it’s hard for them to really engage with what it is. And so I think just helping kids understand the value of what they’re learning and trying to make it applicable to their real life, because honestly, as a part, like with the work that Will Richardson did that I referenced a little bit earlier, a lot of people just learn on demand now. It’s not that they feel like they have to read a whole textbook to learn. No, they can, you can get specific and really good information on specific things that you’re interested in. So I think just helping kids see the importance of what we do here every day. And even when it’s not so engaging or interesting, I think the bigger lesson is learning how to stick to something, even when it’s really hard. Similar to what probably you learned and what I learned through this process of training for a marathon. There’s days when you think, man, this is tough, this is hard, why am I doing this?

Russ Sommerfeldt
And as you stick to that process, the end result is beautiful. And I think a lot of times kids won’t see that until after they’re gone. And that’s why we don’t always see the impact that we have as educators.

Sam Demma
And there’s also opportunities. Like there’s definitely challenges and I think being aware of them is important so we can think about ways to shift certain things, which it sounds like you are, which is amazing. What do you think some of the opportunities are each day in the school system right now? Oh, there’s so many.

Russ Sommerfeldt
I think that a school is kind of a mini society, so to speak, or a mini community. And so, you know, we have a really excellent extracurricular program, athletics program, and on any given night almost at our school, because we’re a seven through 12, we have 10 athletic teams that are playing, whether they’re playing here or elsewhere. But here in the school specifically, there’s a lot of opportunities for kids to get involved and to learn real life skills. So some of them, I know we have an entrepreneur class where kids are making yogurt, frozen yogurt for the game.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And then we sell them at the game to help support these programs that we offer. So they’re actually learning that skill. They could also come work in the concession where they’re taking people’s orders, communicating with them that way, giving that information to the people in prep and getting food out the door so that people can watch the game. We also try to make it a kind of a big production.

Russ Sommerfeldt
So I got kids that are working with our streaming and they’re learning the tech side of things. They’re learning how to do instant replays of a whole broadcast thing and that type of thing. from the behind the scenes stuff of people getting, you know, when we run a tournament, they’re building these, we call them either swag bags or a little care package for each of the players that come. So it’s pretty cool to see all the goings-ons in the building, and that’s just one example. Like, we have the same thing with drama and band and fine arts, where kids can get involved and do a lot of good that’s not academic necessarily, but as a hidden curriculum, it’s very valuable.

Sam Demma
When you think of your community, your mini society of this school, is there anything that you think is very unique or that your school does that may be very unique from other schools? And maybe you don’t even think it’s unique, but for a school in a different province, it could totally be something they’ve never tried or done before.

Sam Demma
Does anything come to mind that you think would be worth sharing?

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, you bet. So we’re unique in the sense that we have kindergarten through grade 12 basically under the same roof. Wow. The elementary school, so K to six, is in its own part of the building.

Russ Sommerfeldt
It has its own administration, it’s its own school, so it’s run separately. And then over in my end, we have seven through 12. But from the moment these kids enter kindergarten, because of the proximity and because we’re such a small community and people know each other so well, they feel a part of the high school. They feel a part of this mini society right from the get go. Specifically with the extracurricular activities because the kindergarten kids, the grade one kids, they get read to by the senior varsity basketball players on occasion. They’re invited to our pep rallies. So they learn the cheers, they’re wearing their blue and gold, they’re decked out. We’ve even had alumni make trading cards of the kids and these little kids will be getting autographs of these players after the game. So it’s unique in a sense that high school sports is much bigger in a really small town than maybe even some of the larger centers because everybody in the whole community is behind it. And it’s really cool. At any one of our games, there may be a thousand people at these games.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And I’ve been to other high schools across the province and even in other provinces, and the crowds just aren’t that big. You’ll get the parents and maybe some family members, but people that aren’t even related to a single player on the court, they’re here because it’s the main event. There’s nothing else going on in the town, so they come, they support. And so in that sense, I think we’re unique, that the school community is basically the hub of the entire town.

Russ Sommerfeldt
And we do a lot of things here at school that spill over into other aspects of the community, which is really cool.

Sam Demma
More rural schools, more rural schools. That’s cool. I love that. Did you grow up in the same area as the school? Or are you from elsewhere?

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, so I grew up in Carsten, which is about 30 minutes southwest of here, very similar culture, where small town and community involvement’s key. And so, yeah, it feels like home, even though it’s half hour away, right? So it’s very similar.

Sam Demma
A lot of other schools struggle to engage their parent communities. It sounds like the parents of these kids show up for things. Aside from the fact that there may be nothing else going on, do you think there’s other things that contribute to people in the community getting really involved in their kids’ school activities?

Russ Sommerfeldt
You know, I think a big part of it is building that relationship with parents and just asking them. I think we forget sometimes that people are willing if they are clear on what it is that is needed. And so figuring out a system and just turning it over sometimes to the parents. And you got to be a little bit careful, but with some planning and with some preparation, they can do a lot better job than I ever could. So I’m the type of leader who wants to engage and bring in as many other people as possible because me, myself could do it one way, but there’s a lot of other people that have lots of great ideas, probably much better than mine. And so I like to bring all those ideas to the table to make it the best possible experience for kids.

Sam Demma
And we only have two hands too, right? So every person brings two more and a brain. So you put it all together, you can move mountains and do some cool stuff. This has been a lovely conversation, the time’s flown by. I just wanna say thank you so much for investing the time into the show to talk a little bit about your educational journey and some of your beliefs around education. If there’s an educator listening to this and wants to reach out to you or get your training plan for running their first marathon, what would be the best way for them to get in touch?

Russ Sommerfeldt
Yeah, definitely send me an email. Russ.Sommerfeld at westwind.ab.ca. I’m sure you can link that into the notes. I won’t give my cell phone number out over a podcast, but my email for sure, or our school website, mcgrathhigh.ca, and they can find me there as well. Happy to talk to anybody who’s interested.

Sam Demma
Awesome, Russ, thank you so much for taking the time. Keep running, keep up the great work, and we’ll talk to you soon. and we’ll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks a bunch.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Russ Sommerfeldt

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education. By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators. You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

Sean Kenney – Director for the Nova Scotia International Student Program in the Tri-County Regional Centre for Education

About Sean Kenney

Sean Kenney is the director for the Nova Scotia International Student Program in the Tri-County Regional Centre for Education and the Coordinator for Community Learning, International Services, and Family of School Supervisor. Previous to his current role, he has been a dynamic classroom teacher, vice principal, and principal spanning 30 years in Manitoba, Quebec, and his home province of Nova Scotia. Although desperately missing being in a school each day working with students, he is broadening his impact within his regional of 6200 students.

Sean has always engaged students in thoughtful and meaningful ways while having a sharp focus on equitable practices that are safe and inclusive of everyone in his school community. Each year he welcomes over 250 students from at least 20 different countries into his schools and communities while serving as their custodian and ensuring that they have a rich Nova Scotian experience.

Connect with Sean Kenney: Email | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Nova Scotia International Student Program

Tri-County Regional Centre for Education

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. Today we are joined by Sean Kenney, the Director for the Nova Scotia International Student Program in the Tri-County Regional Center for Education and the Coordinator for Community Living of International Services and Family of School Supervisor. But he’s been in education for a long time in Manitoba, in Quebec, in Nova Scotia. He works with international students from all over the world and I’m so grateful to have him on the show here today. Sean, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Sean Kenney
Thanks so much, Sam. I appreciate the invitation.

Sam Demma
Where in the world are you tuning in from today?

Sean Kenney
That’s a great question. Most of my work is centered in Southwest Nova Scotia, so my office is in Yarmouth, one of the small towns in the southwest portion of the province. That’s where I am right now. However, some of my work takes me different areas of the world, including different parts of Canada where I first met you at the CAPSI conference in Niagara Falls last spring. Yeah, recently for work purposes I’ve traveled to Thailand and Vietnam for a couple weeks meeting with prospective students, partners, and agencies through our international student program.

Sam Demma
When young people, aspiring educators, think about education, most of the time they think about teaching in the classroom or being a principal of a local school, not traveling the globe recruiting students to come to Canada and to provide them with a home away from home and a life-changing experience. At what point in your own educational journey did you uncover international education, and how did you get involved?

Sean Kenney
That’s a great question. Many moons ago, you alluded to the fact that I’ve been in different provinces. And I began education, oh, 34, 35 years ago now, when I went to teacher’s college. So it’s been some time.

Sean Kenney
And at that time, I was really passionate thinking, okay, I’m going to be the, you know, a great math teacher. And that was my singular focus. And truth be told, I’ve taught a number of other subjects other than math. Over those years, you know, I’ve held different roles as a teacher from grade seven through 12. There’s been math, there’s been science, industrial arts, leadership, outdoor ed, you name it. You kind of try some different things. But then being a teacher and vice principal, I was first acquainted with the International Student Program in that regard at one of my previous schools in Shelburne County, Barrington High. We’d have a number of students come in and that was my first introduction to that. So over the course of the last 15 to 20 years, I’ve had kind of an arm’s length support of the International Student Program. During that time, I’ve got to meet a number of great students from all over the world. And then, as we started to develop programs in schools where we’re able to create a bigger network of host families, we were able to welcome more students.

Sean Kenney
And in doing so, we were able to put in a number of different programs in place to help support those students. It was a few years ago, the opportunity came up where the previous director for the International Student Program in our region took a job change. And I thought, okay, I’ve been a leader from a number of different schools and I’ve always felt for me personally, kind of four to six years is that kind of window where it’s important for the organization and the person to seek new opportunities and change. It’s good for everyone that we continue growth through taking new opportunities. So I said, okay, let me give this a try. And Sam, my eyes were blown wide open because certainly from this lens and the supporting role that I’ve got, I didn’t realize all that was involved in the International Student Program, having been a teacher, vice principal, and principal. Certainly, it’s been very alarming and enlightening to see all that’s involved in welcoming all these students in our program. We’ve actually got one of the most esteemed public school, high school programs in Canada.

Sean Kenney
It’s certainly well respected across the country. We’ve welcomed over 25,000 students across 70 different schools in Nova Scotia. In my particular region, we normally bring 200-250 students. Some will be here for as short as four weeks and some will be here for the full year. Some actually begin in grade 7, 8, 9 and they’ll continue for three or four years to graduate. It’s really exciting, the opportunities. And certainly, as you get to travel and meet different agents and partners, you get to see how my starting role 35 years ago as a math teacher has certainly changed greatly. However, not losing sight of the fact that we’re providing great educational experiences, not just for our Canadian students, but also welcoming students from so many different countries.

Sam Demma
For an educator listening to this, who’s aspiring to get into a school, but has never thought or considered about international education as a way they could provide an exceptional experience for young people and also make a contribution in slightly different ways.

Sam Demma
What are some of those services you provide or things you do on a day-to-day basis to paint a little bit of a picture for the role?

Sean Kenney
Yeah, that’s a great question. So I see my role right now within our region as two, you know, it’s, it’s, there’s many different things on my platter of responsibilities. And one of them is really specific around our 150 international students that are part of our program. a more rural way of life. And then there’s a lot of people coming from other countries and immigrating and moving into our communities. So all of our teachers and staff in all schools

Sean Kenney
have been forced to think of things in a different way, as far as a culturally responsive approach in welcoming all of our students and all of the different cultures in our schools. Previous to COVID, quite honestly, a number of our schools would have had limited experience to people from other countries unless it was through the International Student Program. In our region and across the province, that has traditionally been from grades 7 to 12. So a lot of our elementary schools didn’t have those opportunities. So when we think of those best teaching practices and school practices and creating welcoming schools, they were often limited to junior and senior highs. eyes. So now within our region and across the province, and I would guess across the whole country, this has become a wider focus for every educator.

Sam Demma
When you think about your journey in education and international education, who comes to mind as mentors or folks that have helped you and supported you in your professional and personal development? Yeah, that’s a great question. So, the founder and forefather of the Nova Scotia International Student Program was by the name of Paul Millman, and he’s recently moved on over the last couple of years to take on new ventures. So, certainly I was introduced to him while I was still a vice principal about 12 years ago at a conference in a little town named DeBert. And at that time, they brought together a number of administrators. So watching him and his passion from a distance has certainly been incredible.

Sean Kenney
As I’ve become part of the program, I get to see his far-reaching impact and passion and how he’s instilled that on every single… People are living and breathing the program. I think sometimes we take for granted that, you know, a regular classroom, it ends at three o’clock. Well, the International Student Program, it’s a 24-7, 365-day gig where we’ve got the responsibility for that incredible school experience, but as well, we run our own homestead. So it’s creating a network of quality families that welcome students in for this intercultural exchange that’s so rich.

Sean Kenney
So within our program, I’ve been mentored by a friend and colleague, someone actually oddly enough I knew back at Teachers College 35 years ago, and he and I have had similar kind of lived experiences professionally where, you know, he left Teachers College in the mid-90s, became a teacher, moved, you know, different opportunities. Sometimes opportunities present themselves to you by suggestion. People are thinking, hey, there’s an opportunity here, and I think you might be able to fill this need right now. And I think that’s often how people might step into a leadership role in education, especially when it comes to that of a vice principal. I don’t know that many people go in education thinking, wow, one day I’d love to be a VP or a principal. It kind of happens out of curiosity and just different lived experience where you keep building on different things. So he’s been a wonderful mentor as well as our entire program with this particular journey over the past two and a half years.

Sam Demma
What did those folks do for you that had the greatest impact?

Sean Kenney
I think when you bring varied experiences to a new role and set of responsibilities, it’s around validating some of those curiosities, thinking, okay, is this kind of what’s expected? Am I heading in the right direction. He would provide a number of suggestions to me and he was always there for support when I needed.

Sean Kenney
There’s a lot of text messages and emails, hey, in this situation, it’s new for me but probably not for you. This is what I’m kind of talking through those. Because when you’re dealing with, you know, when you’re dealing with humans, man, there can be some high emotions, big emotions, and you definitely want to make sure you get things right. There’s no playbook that’s black and white. We live in the gray when we’re supporting our kids and families, right?

Sam Demma
I think the unique thing about having a mentor who’s been working in a similar field for such a long period of time, is like you mentioned, it may be new for you, but for them, it could be something they’ve experienced dozens or hundreds of times. And there’s a phenomenal book by a guy named Ray Dalio called Principles, and he talked about a mentor that he had in the book, and he would bring him his challenges, and the mentor would say, oh, it’s just another one of those.

Sam Demma
He categorized a lot of his challenges into buckets of things that his mentor had experienced in the past. And even if they haven’t experienced it based on the breadth of their whole experience, they can probably help make a good suggestion even if they’ve never faced something like that before themselves. You said that international education is 24-7.

Sam Demma
It doesn’t end at three o’clock. I think it takes a pretty special human to dedicate their life to supporting young people From 8 a.m. To 3 p.m. Let alone in a position where it seems like it never stops Did you have any experiences growing up that? Inspired you to want to help kids and work with young people or why did you choose this work? Well, it was the fame and fortune. I was looking for I think it’s a calling. People who want to help and be in a helping field, they find their way there. So for me, I think of a couple of pivotal moments and actually they both happened for me as a student when I moved schools. My family moved schools when I was in grade six. So in Nova Scotia, many of our elementary schools go until grade six. So it was kind of a big deal being the oldest of three boys. We ended up moving to this small rural community and I was like, wow, this is really different. Um, and the teacher there kind of, she saw things in me that I didn’t really see in myself at that time. Right. And then it happened again in grade 10 when I arrived at the high school, first year in a new school and kind of had a similar experience. So I thought, okay, these people, um, are suggesting that I might be a great in school one day. And for me, I found math easier than many of the other subjects.

Sean Kenney
So, between that and enjoying sports, certainly enjoyed sports playing as a child when I realized I was far from a pro ball player, I was never going to be a professional athlete. Later in high school, I can’t remember if it was, must have been the summer of grade 11, a friend, me and one of my friends, we ended up coaching a minor ball team and working with the little league kids at that time would have been five, six, seven. It was fun.

Sean Kenney
And I think that kind of was the hook. It’s one of those things that if you enjoy working with kids, you know, just one of those things. With working with kids, every day there’s something new. So you might get some of those moments, but there’s so many things like, wow, that’s different.

Sean Kenney
So I think always being curious, willing to learn and open to new opportunities, that’s what I love about working with kids. There’s never a dull moment. That’s in transitioning to this role, it’s a little different, right?

Sean Kenney
Having been a principal, I was there every day with 575 students every day. So you get to interact all day long, you know, and this one here, working more regionally based, it’s a little different as far as your impact and influence because you don’t get to see every student every day, which is something I had desperately missed, but I’m adjusting to, right? Finding other ways to kind of get to see them.

Sam Demma
There’s unique opportunities in every field, in every, I believe, in every vocation, every job. I think one of the unique opportunities in the work you’re doing now is you’re creating homes away from a home for lots of kids who these experiences could be life changing and and when you think about the students that you’ve served over the years in international education, is there a story of a student that might come to mind right now who was really nervous and shy and maybe even struggling at the start of their international experience but by the end, we’re emailing you, mister Kenny, you’re not gonna believe this. Yeah. And if there isn’t a specific email, that’s okay too. But if there’s a story, I would love for you to share it because there’s an educator listening to this that’s doubting if they’re making a difference. And I think it’s stories like that that really remind them to keep showing up.

Sean Kenney
Yeah, so having been a principal for a number of years, right? And I’ve had the luxury of working in grade primary to 12 schools. And I always shared with my staff, listen, different grade levels have different levels of gratitude.

Sean Kenney
Some are time delayed. Some are like that email that you’re going to delay send. So in elementary schools, gratitude is daily. You get hugs and kisses and snot on your pants from the hugs, right? So you feel that love every day. In high school, those major milestones, the proms, the graduations, when kids are leaving, you get a lot more gratitude. Middle school, it’s delayed, right? So some, you feel that love, right? And you know that you’re making that difference, but for some, they come back. So from my experiences, I’ve had a number of students that are like, man, I just want to talk to you. I really appreciate that you never gave up on me, even though I didn’t deserve that unconditional positive regard or love that you were given. Because sometimes at that time when I was in grade 7 or 8, I was 13, 14, I wasn’t nice. I wasn’t nice to you. I wasn’t nice to other people around me. I just wasn’t nice to myself. So it’s kind of keeping that in mind. With that said, it’s not lost on me the great responsibility that we have in making sure when our students come as directors, we all serve as the legal custodian. So I take them on as my kids. And one of the great responsibilities that I see is taking care of that homestay part, making sure that we vet the families in an appropriate way so that I’m convinced that if my kids were in another country, my own children, I’ve got two that are 17 and 19, am I comfortable with my kids staying in that home thousands of kilometers away? So we’ve been investing time and energy in making sure that all of our homestay families have a common vision of what it is to take care of our kids while they’re here in Nova Scotia. And unfortunately at times I’ve had to make tough decisions where we’ve had to part ways on that hosting relationship. And that’s really difficult to do because parents are sending their kids to Nova Scotia or Canada hoping for a certain experience and many of them will share. And the great thing is, Sam, I’m Sean now, I’m not Mr. Kenny, which is a great thing.

Sean Kenney
In the international community, I don’t have to be Mr. Kenney. I love it. So they come and they say, Sean, this is just like the Hollywood movies, right? When they think of high school, what’s high school like? Well, North American high school is very different than it is in Turkey or Germany or, you know, pick a country, Japan, South Korea, any of the countries that we host from. So, yeah, it’s that responsibility. And we do a great job making sure we transition the students in. So we have a big team of people, whether it’s our home state coordinators, our program managers, we have school ambassadors, which is a wonderful program. They’re Canadian students in every one of our high schools that are trained to help welcome students as they arrive and help them transition through all of their firsts that happen during their stay.

Sean Kenney
So yeah, there’s a lot of stories where kids come, they’re really scared, sometimes they experience culture shock. I’ve really enjoyed my travels with students when I pick them up from the airport and help kind of relieve their concerns. It’s a three, three and a half hour drive from Halifax Airport down to Yeremeth.

Sean Kenney
So if I’ve got three or four students brand new to Canada, we have nice chats coming back and forth.

Sam Demma
When you think about building relationships and having a positive impact in the life of a young person, have you gotten any advice that you think would be worth sharing with some of the educators that are listening right now that might just be starting to work with youth and wanna make a big difference. Like what advice would you share with them that you’ve received at points in your career that you thought were helpful?

Sean Kenney
There’s a lot of different ones. So one of my mentors as a school-based administrator, he was my principal while I was his vice principal for seven years together. And one of the piece of advice he shared was, no matter what the situation is, when you’re speaking with a child, speak to them as if their parents are sitting in the room with you. Show them the same care and concern you would. You can’t be two different people, and that’s really stuck with me.

Sean Kenney
And some of our CRP work in our region, Shrocky Holly, he talks about VABing, which is the validating, affirming, building, bridging. So, I mean, that’s all, it’s about outrageous love, right? So, that’s kind of the part that keeps us going as educators and relationships are everything.

Sean Kenney
Programs, they come and go. Those are kind of the what’s. The why’s and who’s are kind of that vision of purpose. What is your purpose? And who, who’s it all about? Getting to know those kids, getting to know your staff, getting to know your families and having relationships. Certainly there are some time obstacles and barriers, but that is by far the most important thing. And certainly when I think of some of the work that you share in your presentation, it’s around kind of getting to know those kids so that you can help them raise their ceiling of expectations or goals, dreaming big, think big, and then go for it daily with small, reasonable steps. And that’s certainly what resonated with me in the work that we do. And certainly, Sam, I’m looking forward to bringing you to the East Coast here, hopefully in the next school year, so that we can get you to help bring your message, because certainly I think it would resonate with all of our students.

Sam Demma
I appreciate it, Sean. And I’m so grateful that we were able to share some time on the podcast. I know there’s a lot of educators listening to this who have not even considered or thought about international education as a way they can make a difference and express their own passions for working with young people. I wish you nothing but success in all of your upcoming travels. And if there is someone listening to this that wants to touch base with you, reach out, share some delayed gratitude or ask a question, what would be the best way for them to touch base with you?

Sean Kenney
Yeah, so I’m sure on the bio of this podcast, you’ll share that, but my email is sean.kenney at tcrce.ca. Certainly they can look me up on LinkedIn, Facebook, or even Instagram, certainly, even WhatsApp. So I’m certainly willing and able to help answer any questions or even just chat with anyone who’s kind of curious about this because certainly I didn’t think that my educational journey that started 35 years ago would end up in international education right now. And it’s certainly a very wide field and certainly a niche part of public schools.

Sam Demma
Well, one thing, if you’re listening to this right now and you do want to reach out, just don’t call him Mr. Kenney, refer to him as Sean or else you’ll not get a response.

Sean Kenney
That’s definitely one of the top 20 great things about this new role.

Sam Demma
Sean, thank you so much for taking the time. This is awesome. Keep up the great work.

Sean Kenney
Appreciate it, Sam. Thanks.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Sean Kenney

February 27, 2025 by Sam Demma Director of Education Education Educator Student Leadership Student Success 0

Andrea Michelutti – Principal at Laurelwood Public School

About Andrea Michelutti

Andrea Michelutti is an experienced administrator with the Waterloo Region District School Board, where she has served communities since 2008. Over the years, she has worked in a variety of schools, gaining extensive experience and insight into the diverse needs of students, staff, and school communities. Andrea believes her role as an administrator is to “Uplift, Uphold, and Support” every person she serves. Guided by this philosophy, she fosters an inclusive and empowering environment where individuals are encouraged to thrive. Andrea is deeply committed to leveraging the strengths of her staff, enabling them to be their best selves while delivering excellence in education and care. With a passion for student success, Andrea inspires young people to reach and exceed their hopes, dreams, and goals. Her dedication to nurturing growth, resilience, and achievement has made her a respected leader and a source of inspiration for students, colleagues, and the broader school community alike.

Connect with Andrea Michelutti: Email | Linkedin | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Waterloo Region District School Board
Laurelwood Public School

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today I am very excited. We have a special guest who is full of full of energy, Andrea McAloody from Laurelwood in Waterloo. I’m so excited to have you on the show to talk about all the amazing things going on at the school. Thank you so much for for coming on.

Andrea Michelutti
I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Sam.

Andrea Michelutti
I appreciate you coming to our school last year, and our students still talk about you. They talk about your red backpack. They talk about always being positive and thinking about what we can do better. So, thank you for this opportunity.

Sam Demma
Since I’ve been at the school, I hear there’s a 10-classroom addition that’s been built and that students are taking the initiative to make it a very hospitable experience, a new, beautiful space where every student feels welcome. Tell us a little bit about what’s going on in the school right now.

Andrea Michelutti
So we are very fortunate. We received ministry funding for a 10 classroom addition because our population keeps increasing. We’re over 700 students. And when it opened this year, we opened to fanfare. The architects really worked hard

Andrea Michelutti
so we have the consistent building, the consistent paint colors, the consistent floor. But what we noticed was that our students took a lot of pride in our building. Our students really focused on what’s on the walls, how are they seen, and what are those really great things that they can do.

Andrea Michelutti
They talked about having, you know, a class meeting and how the third environment is what is needed to make sure they feel successful.

Sam Demma
In addition to the addition on the school, tell me a little bit more about how this year has been so far.

Andrea Michelutti
This year has been absolutely incredible. We started this year with more students than we’ve ever expected, and our students have really been working on this idea of hospitality. It came from my conversations with some students in grade eight, and we focused on those opportunities

Andrea Michelutti
of what they can do every day to make others feel welcomed and accepted. So I always say to my students there’s three things that I need to do. I need to support all of our students. I need to uplift all of our students. And I need to uphold or uphold the high expectations, support all of our students, and uplift. So when we talk about uplifting, we’re talking about like greeting our students,

Andrea Michelutti
making a welcome environment. And I had a group of grade eight students come and say, we need to make sure all of our new students to Laurelwood also feel the same way.

Sam Demma
And was this a student-driven idea? Like they approached you and said, hey, we have to do this, or how did it all come about?

Andrea Michelutti
So when I first came to the school, I went to visit every class and I talked about uplift, uphold, support. And when I first arrived, there’d be days where I’d walk the halls. I was new, where students wouldn’t say hello to me. And I said, I expect you to say good morning to say hello. And at first I thought, oh, this is going to be a little silly. Nobody’s going to buy in. And they bought in. And so we’ve been doing that for about a year and a half. And this September,

Andrea Michelutti
our students came to me, a group of boys came and said, we need to make sure our new grade sevens and our new students also understand the importance of greeting each other. I also had some form where students come back and say they’re at new schools now and they don’t feel the same way. And they’ve also approached their teachers and principals to say, how come you don’t greet us at the door? What can you do different? So it’s that slow momentum. But listening to student voice, especially our grade eight students,

Andrea Michelutti
wanting that environment shows that we’re on the right track.

Sam Demma
It sounds like you’ve built quite the culture and community at the school. How do you build this culture of belonging in a school building?

Andrea Michelutti
That’s one of those tricky pieces. So a few schools back, we really focused on that idea of how do all students feel welcome? And so what we did at one of my staff meetings was I had all my teachers go around and take pictures of what the environment looked like

Andrea Michelutti
and how it created a welcoming environment. And so we put a slide show together, I thought it was great. But then we went to the next level and we had all of our students go around and do the same activity to see the adults in the building

Andrea Michelutti
seeing the same things the students are seeing in the building. And we realized there was some things that were the same, but the students really focused on relationships with teachers. They wanted to take pictures of adults

Andrea Michelutti
that they felt that they were safe with and that they can care that that felt cared about And that was most interesting So knowing that I did stumble with my few decisions before because we weren’t too sure where we were going When I came to the school, I really focused on that student voice and those relationships Why I think we’ve been very successful is because we’re talking openly about it and I’ll take student feedback, even the feedback that’s really hard, I listen to them and see what I can do to improve.

Sam Demma
One of the other programs I’ve heard the school has put a major focus on improving is with special education and the mental health of students. Can you tell me a little bit about that this year also?

Andrea Michelutti
So, being a former special education teacher and a former student where I was in a special education program. I know that many of our students always felt a little awkward because learning was hard for them. They had to learn differently. So with my special education team,

Andrea Michelutti
we really talked about what we can do differently to really target our students in kindergarten, grade one, and grade two to fill in those gaps. And we noticed that our students were feeling more successful.

Andrea Michelutti
We focused on their assets and how can they use their assets to improve their areas where they needed a little more improvement. So I’m thinking about a student in the primary grades. Reading is really difficult for her. And what we really focused on was her ability

Andrea Michelutti
to be an amazing dancer and amazing presenter. So we talked about those really strong strengths, and then we moved it into her reading, and she’s already made huge improvements in reading where now she comes to school every day. So by focusing on making students feel good

Andrea Michelutti
about themselves, really connecting on their strengths, one of the side effects, or one of the outcomes, is better attendance at school. We also changed our educational assisted model from being somebody who just jumps in to support kids, to being joy builders.

Andrea Michelutti
So when EAs come in, they are the ones who are there to bring joy to the classroom. So before, some kids would be like, oh, there’s an EA in the classroom. I hope they don’t take me to work with them. We now, our kids all want to work with the EAs because, again, they’re focusing on students’ strengths. And how can we just get that 1% better every day?

Sam Demma
It strikes me that you’re someone who’s been so passionate about education and serving young people and creating welcoming communities. Did you know when you were a student growing up that you wanted to work in education or what did this pathway look like for you?

Andrea Michelutti
When I was younger, I always wanted to be a teacher, but I also wanted to work in business and I wanted to have those, you know, two jobs combined and I never knew what I wanted to do. In high school and in university, I had a chance to work with two Ontario Hockey League teams. I worked with the Sudbury Wolves and the Peterborough Peets. And those were those opportunities that taught me that skills of hospitality, relationships and team building.

Andrea Michelutti
And then I was able to tie that into my passion for always being a teacher. When I became an administrator, it kind of fell in my lap. I was very new to education. I believe I was about seven years in, and unfortunately my vice, the vice principal at the school got sick,

Andrea Michelutti
and at that time there wasn’t many people interested in going into leadership. So my principal tapped me on the shoulder and said, would you be interested in doing this role for about two weeks? That’s it, two weeks.

Andrea Michelutti
Now I’m at 17 years, which is incredible.

Sam Demma
What has been foundational in your professional development as you’ve worked in schools for over 20 years? Have you had mentors or resources that have been helpful?

Sam Demma
And if so, who are those people

Sam Demma
and what did they do for you and what are some of those resources?

Andrea Michelutti
So every time, like once I started in education, I really looked to different mentors. One of my biggest mentors was Charlie Smith. He was my first principal in Markham. And he was an athlete. He was always in the school,

Andrea Michelutti
and what I learned from him was being visible in the building and building those really strong connections at the same time as having that academic excellence. Under his leadership at his school, our EQAO scores for grade three were very, very low. We were at the bottom of the school board, and within three years, we were fourth in the school board.

Andrea Michelutti
And what I learned from him was good teaching, good relationships, resulted in great outcomes. Another one of my great mentors was a principal named Kristen Phillips, and she really taught everyone the importance of being kind, being present, but really pushing student achievement. It was a school where our academic scores were very low. And again, under her leadership,

Andrea Michelutti
we really targeted small group instruction, finding student strengths and moving on. But my biggest mentor ever was the general manager of the Peterborough Peaks from 95 to 99. He was there much before me and much longer after me, but his name was Jeff Tuey. And I just saw how he always treated everybody with kindness

Andrea Michelutti
and respect. It didn’t matter if you were, you know, just a fan coming to the game or if you were a general manager from an NHL team. The way he treated people was with kindness, knew their names, knew things about them, knew their family, knew their passions, and just sitting there, being in my early 20s, seeing that interaction, I’ve tried to really carry that on.

Sam Demma
Do these individuals know the contribution they’ve made to your professional development and personal life? I think they do.

Andrea Michelutti
I’m still in contact with Jeff Tuey. It was funny, because last year, he was up in Sudbury at a hockey game. I no longer live in Sudbury, and he ran into my family. And we exchanged pictures and our cell phone numbers, and I always reach out to him.

Andrea Michelutti
He’s one of those people where I just thought he is able to make things work. And so that’s been really great connecting. And Charlie Smith and Kristen Phillips, we do every once in a while keep in contact over Facebook. They’re both long retired.

Andrea Michelutti
Those are the people who really made my life in a different trajectory.

Sam Demma
With education and any heart-centered vocation, you’re always pouring into others, your staff members, the students in the building, the families you serve, that sometimes we forget to pour into ourselves. When you’re not in the school building or thinking about work, which is probably never.

Sam Demma
But when you have your time to pour into your own cup, how do you do that? What are some of the activities that fill you back up so you can be your whole self at work?

Andrea Michelutti
I’m really fortunate. I have a great family who’s always around me. And whenever I want to do something silly or crazy, they always embrace it. And it could be something like, you know, we wake up early in the morning.

Sam Demma
It’s important to do.

Andrea Michelutti
But it’s those little small connections with friends, with family, and sometimes in our jobs it’s really busy, but I always make sure that I carve out time for family every day.

Sam Demma
That’s so important. Do you come from a family of educators?

Sam Demma
My family went to university.

Andrea Michelutti
So my family had businesses up in Sudbury and I learned the the value of hard work and how when things are going well, they’re going really well. But during economic slowdowns things are really tough. And so what my parents always taught me was to be very appreciative of what you had and make sure that people always feel valued and welcomed in your life.

Sam Demma
Oh, amazing. You said that you’ve been an administrator for I believe now 17 years? That’s correct. What would you say is the big difference between working in the classroom

Sam Demma
and working as an administrator?

Andrea Michelutti
The biggest difference is the impact you make. So in the classroom you work with 20 to 30 students every day, but in a school I’m serving 700 students and supporting 70 staff members and families. So just seeing how the growth from students from grade 1 to grade to grade 8 and seeing the the gain staff makes is very different from being in the classroom to being in a leadership role.

Andrea Michelutti
I do have a lot of opportunities to teach. So if I’m having a tough day, sometimes I’ll go to a classroom and be like, give me a small group, or let me take a group of students. And so this year, my staff has been really working on how to improve their literacy skills, their math skills, and special education. We’re doing everything this year.

Andrea Michelutti
And so when we do have guest speakers, I’ll often say, I’ll take all the students to the library, do a little teaching so the students can work together. But the biggest impact is who we’re serving.

Sam Demma
If you were to think back to your first year

Sam Demma
as an administrator, I’m sure there’s still unique challenges that you’re solving now, but that first year must have been, in some ways, a learning experience. What are some of the advice you would give based on your own past experiences to

Sam Demma
other teachers who might be becoming administrators as they’re listening to this podcast. The one there’s two

Andrea Michelutti
pieces of advice. One is always be kind to others and two is always be kind to yourself. So my first year, I was very aware of all the mistakes I was making and then when I talk to those teachers or those principals, they never notice my mistakes. So I’ve really adopted the model of, if I have a really tough day and I’ve made a bad decision,

Andrea Michelutti
I’ll say, wow, that principal made a really bad decision, but Andrew McAloody is still a really good person. And so I think it’s really focusing on being, forgive yourself when you make those difficult decisions. And I always say, there was never a bad decision, it might just have been bad communication,

Andrea Michelutti
and what can you do differently?

Sam Demma
We’re getting very close to the new year. And when folks listen to this, it might be January or into February. What are you excited about moving into 2025? What I’m most excited about is seeing where our students grow. There are some students that have

Andrea Michelutti
made some significant gains in their literacy and math skills. And they’re just at the point of it’s all coming together, so they’re going to soar. I’m also really excited about thinking about how we can engage our families in different ways. I’m very hopeful for 2025, and I know it’s going to be a great year. I always say this year is the best year, but it turns out next year is the best year, and

Andrea Michelutti
the next year is the best year. And so that’s the great part about being in education is every year it keeps getting better and better. So one of my hopes for 2025 is just to make sure everybody feels a sense of belonging, a sense of happiness, and a sense of welcoming.

Sam Demma
Awesome, Andrea, thank you so much for taking time out of the busy schedule to share some of your ideas on the podcast. I appreciate it. I wish you nothing but the most amount of success and happiness into the new year

Sam Demma
with the school, both professionally and in your personal life, and I hope to stay connected. If somebody is listening to this and wants to share a note of gratitude or reach out, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Andrea Michelutti
Send me an email or reach out to me on X. It’s always important to have those connections. And just briefly, I had a student come back to me. I only worked with him for three months in 2016, and I said to him, I expect you to graduate. And he was a student who really doubted his abilities, but I saw something in him. And when he came back four years later, he just surprised me at the school with his

Andrea Michelutti
high school diploma, we’ve taken a picture, and it’s one of those moments I just will always cherish. Because he said, you believed in me, and I had to make sure I kept up to your high expectations. So I love when students come back, when families reach out, because it really makes those connections just that little stronger.

Sam Demma
I love that. Is the picture posted on your social media by any chance?

Andrea Michelutti
It is. I’ll send it to you. It’s one of those great things. And he actually did a video about our relationship. So that was one of those most important pieces, something I cherish.

Sam Demma
Oh, amazing. And what would your ex account profile be if someone did want to touch base?

Andrea Michelutti
It’s at Mickeludi A. So my last name followed by my first initial. So M-I-C-H-E-L-U-T-T-I-A.

Sam Demma
Andrea, thank you so much. This is a big pleasure.

Andrea Michelutti
Thank you so much, Sam, and keep doing the great work you’re doing. and keep doing the great work you’re doing. You’re changing the lives of many people.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Andrea Michelutti

January 30, 2025 by Sam Demma Education Educator Principals Student Success 0

Jeff Armour – Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University

About Jeff Armour

Jeff Armour is the Chief Operating Officer (COO) for the University Students’ Council (USC) at Western University. Jeff graduated with a B.Sc. from Western University and after a few years of service overseeing the Wave and Spoke restaurant and bars on campus the USC encouraged Jeff to enroll in the Project Management program through Western’s Continuing Studies. Jeff was subsequently promoted to higher-level leadership position in the organization until ultimately landing at the COO role he currently holds. Jeff also recently completed his EMBA at Ivey in July 2023.

Jeff has an extensive background in strategic planning, project management, operations restructuring and realignment, change management and financial strategy.

Jeff is married to Mindy and has three children, Kennedee, Ben and Brad. He was born in BC but grew up in Peterborough, Jeff moved to London for school at Western and never left.

Connect with Jeff Armour: Email | Linkedin | Twitter | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

University Students’ Council (USC)
Western University
Ivey

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Jeff Armour. Jeff and I, we met each other a few years ago and we’ve stayed in touch. Personally, I’m super inspired by the Student Union, the USC at Western that they operate and that Jeff organizes and supports.

Sam Demma
And they do incredible things in the post-secondary space. And I’m honored to have Jeff on the show again. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Jeff Armour
Hey, thanks for inviting me. I guess the first one you can get lucky on, the second one means maybe I did something right. So that’s good.

Sam Demma
I really enjoyed the conversation. And I know this is gonna be just as valuable. There’s so many ways we could take this conversation and different things we could talk about. One of the things I’m most inspired about with your leadership at the USC is every team member seems like the most phenomenal human being. I have some of the most memorable experiences working with you and your staff. Where do you find these amazing human beings? How, like, where do they come from?

Jeff Armour
Wow, there’s two different answers there, I think. The one that’s like maybe the romantic answer is, I think setting a culture and having a purpose-driven organization attracts certain people. That, you know, the old adage at McDonald’s where they say there were smiles on the menu and those were free, and they were selling burgers and fries, but what they were really selling was smiles. I think people come here because they know we’re selling smiles to students. So although they might be a great accountant or a great productions person or a great clubs facilitator or even the people in HR, I think everybody rallies behind the idea that we’re trying to make students smile and enhance the educational experience, which is our mission statement.

Jeff Armour
So that’s the cheesy, super inspirational, like “I’ve got it all figured out” answer. The more, maybe more real answer is, I think there’s a certain amount of luck there. There’s a certain amount of strong leadership about, you know, what type of behaviors and what type of people we want to have here, which obviously changes things a little bit. And then the final piece of that is, when you’ve got something good going on, people like to talk to their friends or the other people they work with, and it spreads pretty quickly. So that’s lovely to see when you’re bringing other people into the fold of what you’re doing.

Sam Demma
I think when it comes to teams, the teams that operate really effectively have cohesion and they’re all unified by that single mission or purpose. And they voice their thoughts and their feelings and have these thoughtful disagreements so they can come up with the best ideas and move forward as a committed, I guess, team of people. How do you think about building that team and encouraging cohesion amongst members of the whole organization?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, I think you said it right at the outset, what is ultimately the goal? In a for-profit entity, you get a lot of infighting, I think, because the goal is making money. And sometimes to make money, you’ve got to step on some toes a little bit. And there’s some one-upmanship going on there in competition, which creates perhaps a better value or more profit when you have that sort of infighting.

Jeff Armour
When you’re centered on purpose, and as long as the leader can set a pretty clear goal of, I mean, I guess I just talked about putting smiles on students’ faces, everyone can get behind that. And the one-upmanship is not stepping on other people’s toes, but it’s more like improv: yes and, you know, as opposed to no, but maybe we could do something else. You get a lot of yes ands. “That’s a great idea. And you know what else would be good is this.” So it’s more like piling on in terms of contribution as opposed to ripping it down to try and one-up to make sure that, you know, you get the promotion or the bigger bonus.

Jeff Armour
That is definitely a major focus around here. Failure isn’t the negative. Not trying is the thing we don’t want to see. Just keep trying. You make a mistake, great, we won’t have to make that one again. That’s another one off the list. So it creates a good environment where everyone wants to jump in and see what other ideas they’ve got or, you know, kind of do the yes and.

Sam Demma
I was recently golfing with my godfather and he’s a big reader of books, and he told me to check out this book called Principles by Ray Dalio. And it was all about his life and work principles that he had operated on for a long time. And one of them was, “We celebrate mistakes but don’t tolerate not learning from them.” They had this software in his organization called the issue log. And every time you made a mistake, it was your responsibility to log it and to share it.

Sam Demma
So you put the date and the time and the mistake you made, and the next sync with the whole team, you would talk about it openly so that everyone could learn from the same mistake that just one person made, and then talk about how to avoid it moving forward. And when you’re talking about celebrating mistakes, that whole idea came to mind. How did you build that culture of celebrating mistakes? Is it something similar? Or like, what did you do?

Jeff Armour
It’s just funny because when I took on this role as the COO, formerly the general manager, we were very, very siloed. So no one wanted to talk about their mistakes, right? Despite the immense amount of value. And so because of that, there was no history written. And because of that, we were destined to make the same mistakes over and over again, which is exactly what we were doing. Which was creating a lot of frustration in people that wanted to be here and improve on it and build towards those smiles and great experiences.

Jeff Armour
It was like, “But why are we… like I get it, but why are we… like I’ll try. You’re paying me. Why are we doing the same thing again? I have this other idea. If we could have just turned that one thing and made it better.” And I’m kind of blowing it here, but when I first took on the role, there’s many things that I did, starting with, like, I reintroduced myself to the team. Like literally did a PowerPoint and said, like, “You’ve known me because I was here for probably 15 years before that and reintroduced myself to the team, my senior management team, and basically said, so, you know Jeff, but you don’t, you don’t know Jeff.”

Jeff Armour
The next thing I did was quietly without labeling it—because I like that—what did you call it? A log of…

Sam Demma
They called it the issues log.

Jeff Armour
Issues log. So I was regularly having meetings as I started to do some change management on the culture of our team—not change management like we’re getting into new products or whatever—it was more of culture change. And I would strategically every other meeting or every, you know, I tried to make it not rhythmic so people started to pick up on it. But I talk about, like, one of the mistakes I made early on. Like, “Oh, coming in this job, I know I, and I made this, I did this thing or whatever.” And what started to happen was they would laugh along with me. But not only that, contribute to ideas of how we could avoid that in the future.

Jeff Armour
And I say I’m kind of letting the lid off this because some of them will, if they hear this, will be like, “Wait, you were doing that on purpose?” Like, I don’t want to make it seem like it was contrived, but really, we weren’t talking about our failures. And when I say failures, I mean, like, it’s a chance to learn or otherwise. So instead, what we would do is someone who you would think would have no opinion on an item—let’s say it was something that we made a mistake in budget—and then someone who’s nowhere near the budget process would be like, “Why didn’t you just ask us about what we were going to… like, that would have helped you avoid that mistake three months later.”

Jeff Armour
And I was like, “Oh, that’s… you know, write it down. Then you make sure you follow up.” Then you start to… and suddenly people can see that change and improvement on mistakes. But not only that, subconsciously, they’re thinking, it’s OK if I bring up a mistake I made. Maybe other people have good ideas because no one’s ever asked me about the budget thing. And now I was able to contribute to a positive outcome, right? It’s like teaching. It’s like a learned behavior that you’re not explicitly teaching them about. Because if I came out and said, “We’re going to…,” they’d be like, “Oh, great. He’s read some books, and he’s trying to… whatever.” Instead, it was like mimicking the behaviors I wanted to see the entire corporation do, like everybody, right down to the person who’s cutting the bagel being like, “Why do we cut the bagels before the person orders it? Like, it takes three seconds, and if we had one of these little machines, we could just…” Great, let’s hear about that.

Jeff Armour
And no one should have their feelings hurt. You should have your feelings hurt if you’re not listening, or you continue to not learn from it—not by not trying, right? It’s just the effort that counts. So the reason I was smiling when you asked the question is because it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to have to tell them the truth, and it’s going to probably be a little whistleblower here on my behaviors,” but yeah.

Sam Demma
Well, I think at the end of the day, it also gives other people permission, like you said, to voice their mistakes. Like you’re actually, as the leader, leading with vulnerability by saying, “Here’s a mistake I made.” And that vulnerability you’re leading with is allowing other people at the table to say, “Hey, it’s OK to be vulnerable.”

Sam Demma
Because if Jeff’s leading us and Jeff’s being vulnerable, so can I. Do you think it’s really important that you did that first? Like if you didn’t share, do you think other people would have shared, or would it have taken a much longer time for that to unfold?

Jeff Armour
I think, yeah, it definitely would have taken longer for it to unfold. Yeah, that’s… I think that’s fair to say. I think I’ve also always just been a person that, like, if I’m going to ask you to do it, I better do it first. Like literally in, like, physical actions. Like if I’m telling you to move that pile of dirt over there, I better be the first person to put the shovel in the ground and, like, to help move the dirt. And then, you know, I always prefer when people that I’m working with or that, you know, are trying to buy into something to be like, “Hey, I’ve got this dirt thing. Why don’t you go over there and start to build that wall so then I can come over and paint,” you know, or otherwise.

Jeff Armour
Like once they can see why they’re doing something and how they fit into the bigger picture, to start to push leadership or someone who’s helping them into where they should be is way better than saying, “I’m in leadership. Do as I say and, like, figure it out on your own.” I don’t know, it just feels like that’s… I don’t know, yucky, kind of condescending, or I don’t know, more like a boss, right?

Sam Demma
Do you trust your intuition and gut on a lot of the decisions you make, or do you have principles or, like, certain guardrails that you think about before you make a decision?

Jeff Armour
Yeah. I’m learning to trust that more.

Sam Demma
Yeah.

Jeff Armour
Here I am at my age now, where I’m at in my career. And we actually, just last week, did StrengthsFinder with the senior leadership team here, the senior managers we’ve got. And my strengths, which make me uncomfortable—and I don’t think I’m sharing that out of turn—they make me uncomfortable because they’re kind of like traditional, hard strengths I’m not super comfortable with.

Jeff Armour
However, because of that, I haven’t really trusted it in the past, which I think has made me more of an authentic leader. Like that kind of… Are you familiar with the Gallup StrengthsFinder stuff?

Sam Demma
I don’t know too much about it, other than it’s like similar to other personality tests to figure out how people can deal with one another, understand how they operate. That’s why—but I could be wrong.

Jeff Armour
No, no, that’s basically it. I mean, the only real big difference is it’s a Gallup-founded test, which means there’s like a hundred billion data points that Gallup has because they do surveys all the time. So it’s like really… And it’s shocking how close it is. It’s amazing insights. So yeah, to get back to the question of, like, do I trust it? I don’t, but I think that’s actually what makes me good.

Jeff Armour
I’m naturally a pessimist with a very strong optimistic outlook. I can see the negative side, but I’m always like, there’s this terrible thing that could happen, but you know what? It’s going to be awesome. So I’m literally built to prepare for the worst and plan for the best. Like it’s ingrained in my DNA to actually do that. So yeah, I don’t really trust… I really trust the people that are around me. If I’m half-hearted into something or they’re not sure if I’m sure, they’ll either give me the resolve or push me a little bit to get to that solid place because I think they trust my instincts more than I trust my own.

Sam Demma
It’s probably not a good answer, but I mean, that’s the truth—is I’m a little cautious with my gut.

Jeff Armour
I think that that’s so important. I think it’s one of the reasons why the organization, the USC, succeeds because if you do just consistently put your eggs in one basket and you feel like, “This is the best decision ever, we’re doing the right thing,” and you don’t ever think, “Well, what if we could be wrong?” you might have some blind spots, and you overcommit too many times. Things can fall apart. Who do you ask, or, like, how do you ask when you have those thoughts?

Jeff Armour
I think the best part about it now, where we’re at, initially I had sort of a small group of people that knew me and knew who I was that I could be not just vulnerable with, but, like, weak. Quite literally just be like, “This is tough.” And early on in the job, there were several things that tested my resolve. And then, you know, middle of the bell curve was COVID, which again, tested things.

Jeff Armour
And in the first chat we had, we talked about my decision to bring everybody back in full. There was no hybrid, which now, I guess, it’s been two years since we did that podcast, I think, or a year or whatever. It’s just showing in droves how great the culture is here. And there’s no group at home and group at work and all of that. Great for… we’re really, like, for the listeners here, we’re really an in-person impact. Like the student walks into your office and says, “Hey, I need some help.” Really hard to schedule a Zoom with people when they’re just walking in. You know, you can’t predict when it’s going to happen. It’s kind of like, you know…

Jeff Armour
So yeah, that’s sort of when I started to realize that my gut instinct was probably pretty strong because I ask a lot of questions. I’m, I think, a good listener. I know where we want to go to. And so what happens is every interaction I have, whether it’s just walking through the halls or otherwise, goes into my brain, unfortunately. It doesn’t add stress to me, but it adds data points. And those data points help me formulate an opinion that makes my gut call a little bit stronger.

Jeff Armour
And this is all stuff that I’ve learned over the last, probably even like last two months as we’ve really gotten into the StrengthsFinder stuff and realized that that is the way I operate. I used to be afraid of it because I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand where that gut… like, nobody just has gut instincts like that. The gut instinct comes from like listening and actively challenging, but also being a pessimist and looking out for the worst, but also hoping for the best. So all those things come together to make it, yeah, what I use.

Jeff Armour
Small group initially, and now I don’t even have to ask for opinions when I’m looking at making a decision or there’s something that’s challenging the group. Everyone feels very comfortable walking into my door and just being like, “Hey, I know this is a problem we’ve got, and I wonder if this would help. I found this article, and here you go. Do you want to read it?” And then you can go even deeper, like, “Oh, interesting, what kind of triggered you? Like, what made you resonate with this challenge that we’re facing?” And it’s like, “Well, I think it’s really important because I see every single day X, Y, and Z.” More data points to go in for the analytical, more information, more comfort with talking to what, in a traditional model, would be like the leadership.

Jeff Armour
And I use that loosely. Because I don’t necessarily believe in, like, there’s got to be one boss. I believe, like, the hive mind works to a certain extent, but at some point, someone has to make a decision, and I get that, right? So I really encourage that. And I think the open-door policy and willingness to listen, and not being afraid that someone has a different opinion than I do, and that means I’m not going to make a decision because they differ with it. I’m great with that because it’s just more data points, right?

Sam Demma
I mean, you’re sharing principles with me right now, like, you know, plan for the worst, but expect the best. The open-door policy, gather information, you know, be a good listener to make the best-informed decision. If I was to chat with members of the USC, other people on the team, and sit them down and say, “What does Jeff say to you most often?” Like, if you were to tell me, “These are Jeff’s, like, maybe not just Jeff’s, but these are the USC’s values or principles and things that we hear over and over and over again,” what are a few of those things or some that stick out in your mind that you think they’d share with me?

Jeff Armour
Yeah, well, some are very USC-specific, that were student-led. Yep. Which, that’s a value we hold—that at the end of the day, there should be a student at the table. I’m not just talking about the president—obviously, the president—but like a student. So if you’re making decisions around clubs, there should be members from the club system involved in making that decision, right? Because they know better than we do.

Jeff Armour
That’s the best way to protect against aging out in an organization that essentially—we’re vampire keepers. The vampires stay 22, 20 years old, and we get older and older, and they stay the same age, right? So the best way to insulate against that is to get as many of them around the table to make the decisions and help you with it. So that’s a big principle that used to scare us. Any student association, I think, would be scared because it’s like, “Wow, I personally am getting out of touch with what that generation wants.” Right? I don’t know what skibbity bathwater means. I don’t understand. Like, it was a couple of years ago.

Jeff Armour
But I don’t have to keep up with that. And the reason I know those words is because there are students around me all the time who are open to sharing with me, just like the clubs’ decision, just like if there’s something that’s going on around designing our menu. Don’t ask someone who’s 45 what they want on the menu because they want nachos and chicken wings, which I definitely want. But maybe the bowls are really hot, or maybe having halal chicken is really important to a large chunk of our… So all those things—students around the table. That’s the USC sort of thing—is that we’re student-led, OK?

Jeff Armour
For me personally, there are two things that are very important, and that is trying. I want to see people trying all the time because I believe that’s where the good stuff happens. Keep trying. I’ve already said it to you earlier on in the interview. You can see that they will hear that. And then from the management leadership realm, it’s delegate, right? Great. You’re great at that. Delegate it. Because I’ve got other stuff that I want to delegate to you. Delegate, delegate.

Sam Demma
And what would be the fear with delegating?

Jeff Armour
That they’re not going to do a good job, or it’s going to get done wrong.

Sam Demma
I still feel it. How do you—like, tell me more.

Jeff Armour
And so then they’re going to… Not just you making mistakes, you’re afraid to try, the people you’re delegating to are going to make a mistake, and you’re going to have to talk to them about that mistake. And not a lot of people have that type of ability to have a restorative, generative conversation with someone who’s made a mistake because they’re feeling bad, right?

Sam Demma
Yep.

Jeff Armour
You feel like you missed a step because you said they did fail. But changing the paradigm of that into a conversation where it’s like, “What did we learn?” And going back to the thing I did on, like, the second week, where I talked about the thing that I failed on—try and mimic that. Like, “Let’s get better together.” That’s a hard thing for people in general to—I mean, it sounds really easy here. I’m, you know, 20 minutes into the podcast or whatever, but like, it’s not easy to do.

Jeff Armour
Those are the conversations. That’s the good stuff in there—is when you can get someone, I think, like I’m trying to do, to press upon people, like, you know, go ahead and make mistakes, and then go and encourage the people that report to you to make mistakes, and then support them in it, right? Those are probably the two things that, like, is a Jeff-ism. And then the one thing is the USC thing—it’s like student-led is a big, important thing.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. The idea of delegation is something that’s very real for me right now. And I’m sure a lot of the school divisions that I serve and support, their leadership teams delegate a lot. And I’ve been working with an assistant for a little while, and I’ve struggled with the delegation situation.

Sam Demma
And I have the best friggin’ team in the world. When things are going great, it’s her. She’s rocking it, you know, and things are not going great, it’s because I’m in my head, and I’m like not sitting in my best position and being a good leader. How did you build that skill yourself? Was it just the repetition of those types of conversations, or what did you find helpful?

Jeff Armour
I think… geez, that’s a great question. I don’t know where that started or when I started to do that. It might have been—we talked about it in the first one, I’m sorry if I’m repeating a little bit—the construction realm.

Sam Demma
Yes.

Jeff Armour
Right, where I had a high expectation of quality, right? And so then what I would do is—funny story, during COVID, we’re at home, and I quickly realized that the school was okay. Everybody was doing the best they could, just homeschooling and all the rest, but the kids weren’t getting the stimulation necessarily at the level that at least my children needed, which was like, “What am I learning that’s new, and how am I interacting with someone getting immediate feedback on whether it’s going well or not?”

Jeff Armour
So for each child, I had a different little thing that I would do with them. Like my youngest, for example, I taught him literally how to make coffee. Like we have a brewer at home where he would put the grind in. So he’s seven years old, eight years old—which is… that’s it. There’s hot water. You got to fill the water up, you got to hit the right buttons, and, you know, make sure it’s not coming out too hard, you know, too stiff or otherwise, it’s the right mix. Taught him how to do it, taught him where the cream was, and to put a little bit of this in and that sort of thing.

Jeff Armour
And so I would just go down, turn my Zoom on at 9:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., whenever the meeting was, and get into it. And so people started to see this seven, eight-year-old bringing me a coffee. And to them, it was like, “What the… what are you doing to him?” He still talks about it today. He still talks about being trusted to do something for Dad, learning how to do it.

Jeff Armour
And he started to get better at it, right? And started to measure the sugar as opposed to just pouring in the sugar and starting to whatever, and then reinforcing that with feedback right away. “That might have been your best one yet. Surprising, because I normally like a lot of cream, but there wasn’t as much, and I didn’t put as much in this time,” right? And the reward that comes from delegation and feedback, positive or negative, and how that fills up the human spirit to continue to try—there’s that word again—I think is an algorithm, a formula that feeds the human soul that makes them want to even do more and more and more, right?

Jeff Armour
Because then the next question was, you know, “Do you want some eggs? Do you want to do this?” And suddenly it starts to grow. And, you know, some people may look at it like, “I was just happy my kid was getting through the day. This was a terrible time for everyone.” I’m like, “Here’s a chance for them—for me—to engage with them as their parent, but also for them to learn and get confident doing things that they wouldn’t normally ever do.” Same principles apply at work. Same thing applied at the construction job.

Jeff Armour
I think that delegation gives the opportunity to fail safely, grow as a team, and, on top of that, have good conversations about what the ultimate why is. Like, where are we going here? Why does Dad want a coffee in the morning? He has a coffee every morning, and if I can do that for him, he can get to work and get on the Zoom later. He might be able to spend more time with me in the morning doing whatever. And those conversations as well. There’s so much good stuff that comes from delegating, in my opinion.

Jeff Armour
It’s scary though, right? Like you’re experiencing it, to your point of, like, “Okay, well…” And also there’s the—I don’t know if you feel guilt about it as well, delegating a little bit.

Sam Demma
I do sometimes feel like it’s irresponsible of me to say, “You do that, not you do this, but can you please help with this?” And it makes me feel… it does make me feel a little guilty, yeah.

Jeff Armour
Because, well, from a selfish perspective, the time it took you to ask, “Hey, I want to move that one o’clock to a two o’clock,” you could have just done it, right? And then you think about how that person is that sees you move it and does it. And suddenly that person has committed their working life to you and being good for you. And suddenly it’s like, “Oh, like, maybe I did that wrong.” And maybe you didn’t catch it because you did it in a moment.

Jeff Armour
But the negative side of not delegating and making sure that that person’s feeling like they’re reaffirmed can also be super damaging. Like it goes both ways. And we don’t think about it that way because we don’t want to bother anyone. I don’t know if that’s Canadian or if that’s just general—the entire world can’t be the Mad Men series where it’s like, “Get me a sandwich.” But there’s some value in actual delegation of a task with some feedback, and I think it’s super important.

Sam Demma
When you are delegating a task, are you front-loading the conversation with “Here’s why”? Like, you know, when you give the example of your son making the coffee, that conversation around “Here’s why we do this” is very helpful because when someone knows why you’re giving them a task and why it matters and it’s important, it’s going to encourage them to feel good about the work they’re doing because it’s serving the greater purpose. But when do you have those conversations in the delegation process?

Jeff Armour
Well, if it’s not obvious, like at the outset—which has become more prevalent here anyways—people will see an opportunity, and often they’re like, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great if I could just do this thing for you, and then you wouldn’t be tied up with it, and we can… you could do that.” That’s happening more and more. But if that isn’t the case, and I’m like, “Hey, so I’ve been thinking about something, and one thing I noticed, you’re way more organized than I am in terms of getting in quicker to do this and that. What’s your bandwidth like right now? Because I think if you can do this thing, that would help me do that thing, and then the two of us would have a much better day. But let’s talk about it,” because getting them to opt into doing the thing is always better.

Jeff Armour
That being said, I think there’s enough understanding and trust in the tank right now that if I was like, “Hey, can you send me those things, and can you do this and this,” people would be like, “100%,” right? Because they know it’s not just because I’m randomly doing whatever. So there’s the two sides of it. It’s like them opting into it but also then building the trust that you’re not asking them to do something that is just, you know, flippant, I guess, is the word. That comes from, like, following up and saying, “Hey, I know I asked you really quickly about putting it in there. Thank you so much because I was running that meeting, and when I got there, I could just open it up and it was there, and it made me better prepared. So I appreciate it.”

Sam Demma
That’s amazing, Jeff. I love this whole conversation. I think we could go on for hours, but I want to respect your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your vulnerability, and just sharing your thoughts on leadership, delegation, and the culture you’ve built at the USC. It’s inspiring. I can’t wait to share this conversation with others, and I look forward to doing it again. Maybe we’ll have a yearly tradition.

Jeff Armour
Thanks so much, Sam. It’s always a pleasure to chat. These conversations challenge my thinking a little bit because sometimes I don’t know why I do things, but I love what I do, and I love making a difference in other people’s lives through sort of giving bits of myself and the opportunity for them to be the best selves that they can be. It’s super rewarding.

Sam Demma
Well, you’re doing it, so keep it up.

Jeff Armour
Thanks.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Jeff Armour

January 2, 2025 by Sam Demma Chief Operating Officer Education 0

Kristan McTernan – Vice Principal at the Toronto Catholic District School

About Kristan McTernan

Kristan McTernan is a Vice Principal with the Toronto Catholic District School. Prior to becoming a vice principal, she was a teacher for over a decade specializing in teaching English, Special Education and ESL. Highlights of her teaching career include leading the team that won a 2022 TCDSB Exemplary Practice Award for expanding the House System and establishing a mentorship program at Brebeuf College School. In the same year, she was awarded the Toronto Secondary Unit’s Status of Women Committee Exceptional Teacher Award for her efforts both inside and outside the classroom. Forming relationships with staff and students through various extracurricular activities, from coaching swimming, and moderating Student Council to organizing Grade 9 Orientation and Grade 12 Graduation make up some of the most memorable experiences of her teaching career. As a high school administrator, Kristan is passionate about supporting all students by thinking creatively about “outside the bell” solutions to address challenges to student success. She credits her willingness to think “outside the bell” with the fact that all her experiences in high schools thus far have been in specialized learning environments. Not only is she a Mary Ward Catholic Secondary School Centre for Self-Directed Learning alum, but she also taught at Brebeuf College, a single-gendered all-boys school, and is now a vice principal at Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts. Throughout her career, Kristan has developed a passion for equity in education, with a focus on BIPOC representation in leadership. She is currently a mentor and one of the committee members of the TCDSB’s Racialized Administrators Mentorship Program. The goal of the program is to provide information, guidance and mentorship to BIPOC educators who may be interested in becoming an administrator. At both the board and school level, she continues to share her experiences as a black woman, black educator and immigrant to Canada proudly raised in Scarborough to further the positive impact of the TCDSB’s robust Equity Plan on the lives of students and their families. Outside of school, Kristan is a proud mother of two boys aged 7 and 10. She raises her sons with her husband who is also a TCDSB administrator, which makes for colourful discussions at the dinner table. Formula 1 Racing rounds out the top three things Kristan is passionate about, just below her family and her school community.

Connect with Kristan McTernan: Email

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Toronto Catholic District School
Mary Ward Catholic Secondary School Centre
Brebeuf College
Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we’re joined with a very special guest. Kristan Mcternan is a vice principal with the Toronto Catholic District School Board. She and I met less than a year ago, collaborating on an event. And I’m so honored to have her on the show today.

Sam Demma
Kristan, please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Kristan McTernan
Yeah, so that’s pretty much me in a nutshell right there. I’m Vice Principal of the Toronto Catholic District School Board. I have the pleasure of being the Vice Principal of Cardinal Carter Academy for the Arts. I have been a Vice Principal for about two years, going into my third year. Before that, I was a teacher at Braybuff College for 14 and a half glorious years. And so, yeah, now I come to Cardinal Carter as a vice principal and just embracing what this role brings.

Sam Demma
Did you know you wanted to work in education, or what did your own pathway look like as a student?

Kristan McTernan
Education, yeah, I knew because I think it was in my blood. The path really started with my parents. Both my parents are educators. My dad retired. My mom is still a special education teacher. But when we moved here from Trinidad when I was five, I really watched them fight to get back to the classroom. They needed to get recertified and get some things in order, and that took a while. While they were working and transitioning into being Canadian citizens with two young children, they were also studying and getting themselves certified. I saw that passion they had for teaching, and when they finally got back into the classroom, it really resonated with me.

In the meantime, I was that kid who would line up all my teddy bears, give them little handouts, and decorate a wall in my room as a bulletin board. I’d change it up every so often to reflect themes or different seasons because I really wanted to emulate my parents and their love for education. That carried me to high school, where I had great teachers in both elementary and high school. At Holy Spirit in Scarborough, I was a student from JK to grade eight, and then I went to Mary Ward, which gave me a unique perspective on education because it’s a self-directed learning center.

Kristan McTernan
And while I was doing that, I got involved in working with Toronto Parks and Recreation, now called Toronto Parks, Recreation, and Culture, in the camps. That sparked it for me. I knew I wanted to be a teacher as soon as I got there. Before, I felt it, but when I started working with kids through camps, working my way up from an assistant leader to an area coordinator managing a group of camps, I fell in love. So, when I went to university, I took a psychology course, focusing on education. I did a double major in English and Criminology and a minor in History. I thought for a hot second that maybe I wanted to do law.

Kristan McTernan
But a teacher told me, “You want to work with youth. Do you want to work with them after they’re in the system, or do you want to reach them before they enter the system?” I said, “No, I want to work with them before.” And that was it. I did Teachers College and all the good things that led to this point. So, yeah, I think it was in my blood, starting with my parents.

Sam Demma
Cardinal Carter has one of the best art programs and facilities in the board. Is there a connection to arts in your own life that inspired you to be at this school, or was it luck of the draw that you ended up here?

Kristan McTernan
Well, it’s luck of the draw. Even though I had a brief foray as a saxophonist in elementary and high school, I wouldn’t say I have a musical background or a background in the arts. That allows me to be the biggest fangirl of all the arts in our school. I’m loving the drama, music, dance, and visual arts. I’m loving all of it. I can just be an amazing fan for the students because I don’t come to it with my own background in the arts.

Sam Demma
I was blown away by the amount of student art on the walls and just the energy of the students. It was such a welcoming space. What are the values that you and your team and the staff try to instill in the students? What is the culture you’re striving to build? Because it’s very apparent that when you walk in, it has a really welcoming feeling.

Kristan McTernan
Oh, it’s amazing to know that it’s coming across to visitors in our school. We are very much working with artists, and as a staff, we’ve talked a lot about the unique struggles for students who are artists, who have this creative mindset. Instead of focusing on expectations and being creative, they already come with that. What we strive to do is help them have balance—to celebrate their successes, to understand that failure is only part of the journey, and to provide them with a counter perspective than what they come with.

Kristan McTernan
That’s what we do at our school—to build community among the different art areas and bring students together across the art areas to embrace the experience of being a student. Balance in life, mental health, and well-being are just as important as creativity and being the best you can be. Our students tend to come with that, and we just provide the other perspectives to help them live a really balanced life and be their own best selves.

Sam Demma
When it comes to building connections or relationships with students, building rapport, how do you go about doing that as an adult?

Kristan McTernan
Once, when I was a teacher, someone came to me and said, “You have this way of joking around, but you’re not messing around.” I’ve tried to embody that. I want students to see me as a person, someone who cares about them first and foremost. Yes, there are things I need to enforce, but beyond all that, I care about their growth. I’m willing to break down my own walls, share my own experiences, and even share my own mistakes with them.

Kristan McTernan
I tell them, “I’ve been a student longer than I’ve been a teacher or an educator. I’m telling you this because I want the best for you.” When students see that, it’s the easiest way to build that relationship because they know I’m genuine. They’re willing to share their successes and fears, struggles and triumphs. That’s been the key to building those relationships as a teacher and now as a vice principal.

Sam Demma
That phrase, “I’m joking around, but I’m not messing around”—that’s gold right there.

Kristan McTernan
Well, I have to give credit to the person who said it first. His name’s Dave. Early in my career, he said that, and I ran with it.

Sam Demma
When you think about interactions you have with young people that have left them better than you found them, do any stories of impact come to mind? I ask because a lot of educators got into this field to make a difference, but sometimes they don’t hear about their impact until years later when a student bumps into them at the grocery store and says, “Miss, you changed my life.”

Kristan McTernan
I see it every day. At any given moment, I have students who need me. Even their growth from when I got to the school to now has been amazing. For example, attendance is a big piece. When a student says, “Miss, I didn’t skip today,” that’s a badge of honor. And I’m like, “Yes, amazing!” Celebrating those accomplishments with them is huge.

Kristan McTernan
As a teacher, I’ve had impactful moments too. I had a student who sent me pictures of his newborn son. When students come back and want to interact with you in their adult life, you know you’ve done something right. Those are the moments I carry with me—every time a student comes back to visit and tells me what’s happening in their in their lives is amazing.

Sam Demma
Who have been some of the impactful mentors in your own life or people that support you as a vice principal, as a teacher, that without them, you know, you think, gosh, life or the way I approach things would have been very different.

Kristan McTernan
I have, I’m like going, thinking about my journey of getting to education, I can name them as we go from stage to stage. As I said, my parents, first and foremost, and see, like, I would say, my mom is one of the most incredible educators I’ve ever met. I’ve seen kids that have been written off and my mom’s like, in her Trinidadian accent, no, we’re gonna work with this kid today, like that is happening.

That persistent attitude, that determination that no kid is going to be left behind, and every kid is worthy of growth and accomplishment, I get from her. When I was in elementary school, I had two amazing teachers, Ms. Bailey and Ms. Kudo, who showed me what it was for a teacher to care about a kid outside of the classroom.

When my parents dropped me off early in the morning, and it was really cold—we’re from Trinidad, I wasn’t used to this—Ms. Bailey took me to her class and allowed me to stay there. She would help me with my work. She had high standards, but she was willing to help me reach them and to care about me and my family.

She actually was a person I turned to when I was becoming a teacher to help me with the interview process and all that. She’s never given up on me. At Mary Ward, we have something called a teacher advisor. They are a teacher who actually doesn’t teach you—or they may teach you, but they don’t have to—that sees you every single day of your high school career. They see you in the morning, at lunch, and in the afternoon, tracking your progress and talking with your parents.

For me, it was Miss Earl. She was an amazing example of how a teacher goes beyond curriculum. A teacher cares about kids. She cared about me and kept me on the straight and narrow. My mom did it at home, and I knew Miss Earl would do it at school.

I also had a teacher named Mr. Wetzel who taught me that teaching is about helping students see the curriculum and engage in it beyond just the right answer. It was about what I could prove was the right answer, and that’s why I got into English.

Right now, I have a current mentor, my principal, Linton Soares. Yes, you met him when you came over. He’s a great mentor. He’s helping me take those values I had as a teacher, align them with his values, and bring that forward into this role. He helps me stay true to why I got into this in the first place, so it doesn’t get lost in the everyday tasks of running a school.

Sam Demma
It’s awesome that you can name these people one by one based on the stages of your life. I’m fortunate that I’ve had so many mentors myself, and I think about it all the time, like, thank God for putting these people in my life because they all seem to come at the perfect times when I needed them most.

We met in the most weird, coincidental ways. And I just know that if I didn’t have those people, my own values and the way I show up and the decisions I made would have likely been very different. So it’s nice to pay homage to some of those people. And if they listen to this, y’all just know that Kristan and I appreciate you big time.

Sam Demma
The start of the school year is no joke for a lot of educators because they just finished this two-month break. They’re excited, but sometimes they jump in, and it’s like, whoa, super overwhelming—there’s so much going on. How do you make that transition every year from summertime to another school year?

Is there any rituals that you have? Or like, you know, as a soccer player, I would always have these pregame routines, and I feel like the last week of August is pregame. What does your pregame look like?

Kristan McTernan
My pregame looks like first hanging on to every minute of the summer that I can before I have to let go. Just savoring every single minute of it so that I know when it’s time to get back into it, I’m ready. I think of it as Happy New Year.

Everybody celebrates January 1st, but Happy New Year for educators is the Tuesday after Labor Day. That comes with resolutions: self-reflection, what do I want to do differently this year? What were my successes last year? What do I need to do differently? What do I need to put in place to make that happen?

Every year, I go into it with the goal of finishing the way I started, finishing with the energy and perspectives I had at the beginning. Whatever I put in place to revise my practices leads to an even more successful outcome.

The job can be very draining—we put so much of ourselves into it. So, I want to create balance and be effective. My resolutions are often about that. I know my weaknesses, like organization. Sometimes I have to fake it till I make it, and it usually involves a lot of Amazon purchases, like a new agenda book. I can’t take my old habits into the new year!

A few new wardrobe pieces also help me feel ready to tackle a new year. I want to make sure that by the end of the year, I’ve done everything I set out to accomplish and made the most of the time with my family.

Sam Demma
I think that’s such a key reminder to be present wherever you are. Jim Rohn, a speaker who’s been very influential for me, said, “When you work, work. When you play, play. Don’t be at the beach thinking about work, and don’t be at work thinking about the beach.”

You ruin both experiences that way. When you’re at the beach, be at the beach. When you’re at work, be at work. That’s the sentiment you just shared. It’s something I need to hear right now because I’m always living in the future or thinking about the past, forgetting about the moment we have—right now.

Kristan McTernan
Exactly. There are only a finite number of summer days in my life, but there are also only a finite number of days in my career. So, I’m going to maximize all of it for what it is.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today.

Kristan McTernan
Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast!

Sam Demma
I hope the academic year this year is phenomenal, and I look forward to crossing paths again soon.

Kristan McTernan
Thank you so much.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Kristan McTernan

December 31, 2024 by Sam Demma Administrative Support Education Educator Principals Student Leadership Student Success 0

Natalie Fisher – Manager of Student Services at the Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA) at Mohawk College

About Natalie Fisher

Natalie Fisher is the Manager of Student Services at the Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA) at Mohawk College, where she has dedicated the last seven years of her career. For the past two years, she has taken on the pivotal role of Manager, where she focuses on fostering student success and well-being within a diverse community. As a proud Mohawk alumnus and former member of the varsity women’s basketball team, Natalie brings a unique perspective to her role. Through her commitment to providing essential and barrier-free services, Natalie significantly enhances the college experience for students every day.

Recognized for her contributions, Natalie was nominated for the 2019 Women of Distinction Award by the YWCA – Hamilton, highlighting her impact and leadership in the community.

Outside of her professional responsibilities, Natalie passionately volunteers as a basketball coach for the Special Olympics in West Niagara, a role she has embraced for over eight years. Her dedication to both her work and volunteer efforts exemplifies her commitment to making a positive difference in the lives of others.

Connect with Natalie Fisher: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Mohawk Students’ Association (MSA)
Mohawk College
YWCA – Hamilton
Special Olympics in West Niagara

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by a very special guest, a good friend, volleyball coach, Natalie Fisher.

Natalie Fisher
Hey, what’s going on?

Sam Demma
Nat, thanks so much for coming on the show. Please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Natalie Fisher
Hey, I’m Natalie Fisher. I am the manager of student services at the Mohawk Student Association at Mohawk College.

Sam Demma
You’ve been there for how many years now? Seven. Seven years. And what got you involved or interested in serving young people and working in education?

Natalie Fisher
So I didn’t go to school. I feel like I’ve been at Mohawk my whole life. I went to school here. I took two programs. So I feel like this is my second home. But I really just wanted to make a difference, make an impact on students’ lives. So I worked as a student here on the campus and then I kind of worked my way once I graduated up into the role I have today, whether it was at a satellite campus or here at the main campus and then obviously in different roles but in student services. So this is my passion.

Sam Demma
The college couldn’t get rid of you even if they wanted to.

Natalie Fisher
They really couldn’t. They really couldn’t. I was a student, I was an employee, and then I was a varsity athlete. So I kind of hit all the areas here. So yeah, they are probably sick of me at this point.

Sam Demma
When you were a high school student growing up, did you know you wanted to work in education? Or what was your career path that brought you here?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, so when I was in high school, talking with the guidance counselor, I wanted to be a teacher at the beginning. So I guess kind of with young adults, but then I wanted to be a nurse. So in my first year out of high school, I actually took nursing. And I didn’t love it. I didn’t like, I don’t know, I was a varsity athlete. I was from a small town. Coming into Hamilton was a huge culture shock for me. So it was a rough first year of post-secondary.

But then I kind of made my path a different way. And I did health wellness and fitness and then I did occupation physiotherapy. So that’s kind of how I came to where I am. And then I found a job within the OTA program field, but I found myself working a part-time job so then I worked at the college and then it all came into fruition where I am now.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome.

Sam Demma
Did you have educators in your life or coaches that kind of shed a light on good mentorship for young people that inspired you to get into this? Or, tell me some of the role models in your life.

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, absolutely. I can think of one, like, at the top of my head. Her name is Kelly Denham. She was a basketball coach when I played here. She worked in the alumni department at the time, and she also coached basketball in the community. So she kind of really was a role model in my life in terms of like just giving back to people and making an impact on young girls in the community as well.

So she was probably my biggest role model once I hit the college era of my time. She unfortunately has passed away. She got cancer during COVID but she will always have a special place in my heart and I will always remember her life lessons that she showed me, whether it was on the court, going through resilience and adversity as an athlete, as a student-athlete, and then giving back to the community, working with other people.

She’s really probably why I am where I am today, just in terms of the mentorship that she gave me and the advice that she’s given me. So she is a huge part of where I am and why I am the person I am.

Sam Demma
Oh, I’m so sorry about the passing. And I appreciate you sharing. I can think of some of the mentors I’ve had in my life that have had a similar impact as the one you’re describing that Kelly’s had on you. What do you think it is that she did? Or how did she show up that it really helped you?

Natalie Fisher
I think she also, she put me first and I am also that type of person. She had a family, she had two kids, so she always would see me at practice and like see that I was dragging my butt, like I was tired, I was like not struggling with school, but it was a lot coming out of high school and for you to go from like high school from a small town to a bigger city and post-secondary, it can be overwhelming at times.

And I think that the constant support and the constant of her putting me first before herself and her family was a huge thing that I was so grateful for. She offered her couch at one point because it was a snowstorm and I lived 30 minutes away from campus. So those small little things really made me be so grateful of those things that other people do in life.

The smallest things that we do for other people or even in my job, she makes a huge difference in people’s lives, and I think that’s why I appreciated her so much. Because the little things made a huge difference at the time for me, and I just was so grateful.

Sam Demma
Can you think of a moment one of your colleagues today did something small for you that had a really big impact and maybe it was recently, maybe it was a long time ago but what examples stick out in your mind?

Natalie Fisher
Let me see. I think of one. Obviously, everybody’s got a lot going on—jobs, life, family. And I would say the last two years, my dad has been sick. So it’s been hard for me to watch him go through all of that and I have a daughter and work is busy. So I’ve just been run down a little bit, like only six months ago.

And I think April, one of my coworkers, just said like, “Hey Nat, let’s get off campus, let’s have lunch, like let’s connect on like a personal level.” And she’s fairly new to the organization so I was like, “Oh, like what a great gesture.” She notices that I’m not myself at work and we had lunch and we both had tears, we had laughs, like it was such a good connection.

And I think from that point on, our friendship and our co-working space together has grown tremendously. And I think now I have that person to count on at work if I am having that moment, because I’m comfortable. I’m in that safe space that she’s created.

Sam Demma
I think it’s also such an important thing to remember that we’re not alone in those challenges because everyone’s going through something. And yeah, I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. But it’s so cool to hear that you have those supports in your workplace. Like it’s not something you have to wait for until you go home.

How do you think you cultivate those safe spaces where people can be themselves?

Natalie Fisher
I think it’s just like the small actions, like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And I know, like, we always say, like, a little chit-chat doesn’t mean a lot to people, but I think, like, you genuinely can sense someone’s careness and their empathy that they have for a situation.

So they’re not really just saying, “Hey, how’s it going?” just because you’re passing by. Like they genuinely want to know how you’re doing. And I think if you have that space, more people will be vulnerable to open up. You’re like, “I’m not okay.” And I think that’s what we’re finding now here at the college is where students are okay, are getting more comfortable to say like, they’re not okay, which is a huge stepping stone, I think.

But I, yeah, and it is great that I have that space here at work. Not everybody has that. They usually go to work and go home, and then deal with kind of like their mental health or their inner kind of thoughts. So I am very fortunate.

Sam Demma
I think also when people in leadership positions express vulnerability first, it gives everyone else permission to do it because everyone else may be hesitating because they’re not sure if it’s acceptable behavior. But when someone in a leadership position does it in front of everybody, it almost like creates permission for everyone else to do the same.

Natalie Fisher
I agree.

Sam Demma
And I think like being a young leader in the role I am today, I can say all of my staff under me are older than me. So like, it’s a unique dynamic that I have between my staff. And I guess if I have shown them that I am not okay sometimes, so I think like it also gives them a safe space to be like, “Nat, I’m not okay either.”

I remember probably just before September hit for Startup, one of my staff was on edge and I had went down to her campus and I was like, “What’s up?” And I had created that safe space because she knew I have been in that space. So she did open up and she’s like, “I’m stressed. I don’t know why.”

And so like, we talked through it. And then by the end of the conversation, she’s like, “Nat, like, thank you so much for like, letting me like, be myself and be open and about how she was feeling.”

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. So it’s so, I’m glad to hear that you make the time for those conversations, because I think they’re just as important as work-related conversations.

A lot of your role is managing other staff on your team, but you also do a lot of student-facing events and you interact with students a lot. How do you build a relationship with a young person or build rapport with young people?

Natalie Fisher
I think it’s totally different. And I don’t know, you are young too. So, but when I was a student, I was very open with like co-workers—or not co-workers, like staff and faculty that always came up to me.

But I find this generation in post-secondary is a little bit tougher. Like, they make things a bit harder for us to kind of build that relationship with them. But I think if they are having a problem or an issue, I think just listening to them is the biggest thing. They want to be heard.

And then I think just providing that empathy is a huge part too. So like, “I hear you, I’m listening. Like, this is how we can support you. If I’m not the right person, like let’s connect you with the right person.”

Before pandemic was probably a little easier because right now at the college like people are at home, some staff are not on campus all the time. So as the MSAA we try to connect them with a person instead of just going, “Oh, just email this person,” which I think goes a long way for people, especially international students who are new to Canada and don’t know the environment here at the college yet.

So connecting them with a person, like person-to-person interaction is probably the best way. And then we’ve had students come back to say like, “Thank you so much for your help. Like, I’ve really got my things dealt with.” So they are appreciative of the extra step and extra mile that we go to make sure that their issues or concerns are dealt with.

Sam Demma
I had teachers who went above and beyond to make sure that I was okay or taken care of and it made all the difference for me. I also had some coaches who had a big impact on me for that same reason.

How has sports played a role in your journey and your leadership?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, for sure. I think sport is a unique thing. It brings life lessons kind of after the fact. You don’t think about them when you’re playing. I don’t know about you, but I definitely didn’t think about things in the life side when I was playing.

But I think just going through adversity and injury is kind of the same thing when you have a difficult employee or a difficult situation that you’re dealing with. So not to get down on yourself, think about how you can do better after the situation’s over.

Practice makes perfect. Like I feel like you’re not gonna get it right when you’re dealing with a situation for the first time. And so like going through it, you’re gonna learn something and then you’re gonna go through it again and you’re gonna learn another thing.

So I think very similar lessons, I guess you could say, within sport that translates into like the real world. Another thing is like time management. When you’re a student athlete, you gotta time manage huge, right?

So like coming into like a leadership role, you have your staff, you have your own work, and then like you have the leadership side of things. So for me, I’ve been in the leadership role for two years now, and I confidently say, like I am learning every day on how to be better.

Sam Demma
I think it’s so important to hold that mindset no matter whether it’s a job or a sport or whatever you’re getting involved in. I think the moment you think you’ve arrived and you know everything is the moment you start the downfall.

Natalie Fisher
Exactly.

Sam Demma
So I love that. Sports for me, too, were massive in life lessons. I had a coach who really cared about our character as human beings as well, not just the athletics. And he had all these weird, well, at the time, what seemed like weird rules.

There was this long cobblestone pathway we had to walk down to get to the soccer field, but if you just walked off the pathway onto the grass you could get there in like two minutes less. Right? Because it was a perfect like straight line shortcut whereas this path went in a massive circle for no reason to bring you to the soccer field.

So first couple of times I joined this club I cut off the pathway and walked on grass and I get all the way to the field and I’m shaking the coach’s hands and he’s like, “Sam, go walk back up the hill and walk down the pathway.” And I was like, “Okay, coach, my bad.”

We always had our shirts tucked in, like he was very much attentive to these little details. And the way he carried himself just stuck with me. So I think we had similar experiences when it comes to sports.

One of the things that happens as an athlete is you also have uncomfortable conversations, right? You know, you gotta have uncomfortable conversations with a coach, with your teammates, even with your parents in the car, sometimes after the game finishes, right?

And they turn to you and say, “So how’d you think you played?” And you’re like, “It’s one of those ones, huh?”

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Sam Demma
I think it’s the same working with other people, you know, as a part of a student association. As a team leader, as a team member, how do you approach those challenging conversations with your staff members?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, I think it’s, again, like listening, like active listening. I know like some leaders just kind of like listen but aren’t attentive to what people are saying. I think listening, providing them that space to really open up—I think if they don’t have that space to open up, you’re not going to get their authentic feeling or self.

But I also then think like working together to create that solution or to get on the other side of the difficult piece. It’s really hard to bring something to someone or have something brought to you and then you figure out, as the leader, you figure out the solution. I think it’s important that you work together with that employee to figure out what is the best option for us to move forward over this obstacle.

It gives them a sense of belonging and value. I think the worst feeling is for them to walk away and go, “Well, they didn’t do anything,” or, “I don’t feel like that’s the right direction that they were expecting.” So I try to listen to their story. I always ask them, “What do you think that we should do to kind of improve the situation?” or, “What are your thoughts?” And then I can share my perspective.

So it’s like a team—two people or a team figuring out what the best course of action is. It just gives them a sense of, “We’ve listened, we now are on the same page, so we have shared understanding.” And then moving forward, we’ll work together, and they know that the support is there. So if it does come up again, or there’s another roadblock before we get to the other side, they’re confident that they have the support beside them.

Sam Demma
I think the active listening piece is so challenging because in today’s days we have so many distractions—not to mention our own challenges. Like, someone starts talking and we’re thinking about 4 p.m., and we have to deal with this person or go pick up our kids. So is there anything you do that helps with that portion of the conversation?

Natalie Fisher
So I try to make notes as they talk. And then usually what I’ll do is I’ll kind of paraphrase what they said or what I’m hearing. I’m like, “This is what I’m hearing. Is this accurate? If it’s not, where am I missing pieces?” Just so if I do have these random thoughts in my head, like you were saying, I can then correct myself.

And so it could be a huge piece of the story that they’re sharing that I’m missing. So I do try to reiterate, “This is what I’m hearing. This is what you’re saying. This is how you’re feeling. Is that correct? Is that accurate?” Obviously, if they say no, probably questions help, but usually, they’re like, “Yep, perfect.” So then we kind of move forward.

Sam Demma
And you’re listening to your staff every single day, but you’re also listening to the concerns of hundreds, if not thousands, of students, trying your best as a team to cater to those needs. You have a pulse on some of the challenges students at the college are facing.

What would you say are some of the most common things in terms of challenges that students these days are carrying in their backpacks?

Natalie Fisher
I would say as an international student, money and jobs are a huge thing. Housing, affordable housing nowadays, is really big, especially in Hamilton. And then what the MSA and the services department—we’ve been focused on food insecurity. Food insecurity has been a huge piece of the struggle students are facing these days.

So we’ve expanded all of our food security programs. We are going to facilitate a Health Canada survey on food insecurity to get some data on how food-insecure students are based on 10 standard questions. So we’re really looking forward to that. Unfortunately, it’s going to bring back bad data, but I think once we have that data, we can then improve the resources and stuff on campus for students.

And then advocate to the institution to say, “These are the percentages of how food insecure students are. What can you do as an institution to also support these students?” So I would say food insecurity, housing, and money, jobs are the huge struggles students face.

Sam Demma
I was a guest at Mohawk College last year, and I noticed that this year, the local restaurant had these reusable containers that you could bring back to have your food put in every time you buy food there. And I thought, “What a unique way to be a little more sustainable and also provide a less expensive option for students who are going to continue using that reusable container.”

What are some of the other changes that are happening at the college that you as MSA are pumped about, or things that you’ve been working on and you’re excited to just shout on top of mountains?

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, so it’s called Friendlier, the sustainable kind of reusable program. It launched in September, so it is campus-wide. It’s not just the MSA, which is nice, and I think a lot of other colleges are trying to get on board with this initiative.

Another one, we launched a program called Dialogue, as you’re familiar with. It is an uncapped mental health wellness service. So we piloted it last year, so we’re super excited that students get to use it this year. Again, because before, we had capped therapy, so they got six sessions for their mental health, which wasn’t ideal because most students need more than six sessions to kind of get to remission in their treatment.

So this is uncapped, it’s virtual, on their phone, so very accessible. Another one—this food security thing is really big from our board of directors that we’re trying to figure out what students want. As you know, things are changing in the generations of students.

They don’t want to drink and party anymore, is what we’re finding. They want to just hang out, have a social connection with one another. So we really pivoted from our event side to really focus on social connection and how to get other students to interact with another group of students without kind of making it awkward for them.

So that’s kind of what we pivoted to. We have a huge international population, so we’re trying to cater events to them. But I think most of our events that we’ve kind of been hyped up all summer about are now over. But we have kind of programming going out throughout the year.

So yeah, lots going on at the MSA. I think there’s different things that we have happening and are catering to different demographics at the college.

Sam Demma
If there’s an educator who’s just jumping into this work now, who’s feeling a little scared, nervous, burnt out, what advice would you give them?

Natalie Fisher
Hold on. I think everything’s changing. I think if you don’t love change, post-secondary is not the work for you. I can confidently say within the seven years that I’ve been here at the MSA, not one year has been the same.

I love change, so it’s kind of great to adapt different things. I had one leader tell me when there’s a change there’s always an opportunity for new things. So I think if you do come up against a roadblock or you’re burnt out, there’s always going to be an opportunity on the other side, and I think if you find that opportunity, that will relight your fire to get back into it.

Sam Demma
That’s exactly what I told myself when my car broke down. “This is a beautiful opportunity for a new vehicle.”

Natalie Fisher
There you go.

Sam Demma
Nat, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time and your positive energy and your insights. And I hope that the work with the MSA continues to be successful and very meaningful.

Natalie Fisher
Yeah, thanks so much, Sam. Happy to be here.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Natalie Fisher

December 24, 2024 by Sam Demma Coach Education Student Leadership Student Success 0

Shianne Gammon – CTSO Manager, BPA & FFA

About Shianne Gammon

Shianne Gammon is a Student Leadership Manager in the Idaho Division of Career Technical Education. She serves both BPA (Business Professionals of America) and FFA. Before she started in her role, she was a high school business education teacher for five years. During her time as a teacher, she was also a BPA advisor and coached high school girls basketball and volleyball.

She is very passionate about CTE (career technical education) and CTSOs (career technical student organizations). Growing up, both of her parents were in education. Her dad a history/government teacher and football coach. Her mom a business education teacher, cheerleading coach and BPA Advisor. Following along in their footsteps just came naturally.

Shianne now has the pleasure of working with the State Officers for both student organizations and helping them to become incredible leaders. Although, she would argue that she has actually learned more from them and they continue helping her grow every day.

Connect with Shianne Gammon: Email | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Idaho Division of Career Technical Education
BPA (Business Professionals of America)
FFA

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today I’m joined by Shianne Gammon, who introduced me to Chick-fil-A, ladies and gentlemen. She is a superstar. Shianne, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today. Please introduce yourself.

Shianne Gammon
Thanks for having me.

Shianne Gammon
I’m very excited to be here. My name is Shianne Gammon. I’m a student leadership manager at the Idaho Division of Career Technical Education. So I help support student organizations like BPA and FFA.

Sam Demma
How did you get into this work? Did you always know you were going to be a student in student leadership?

Shianne Gammon
I got into it through education. So both of my parents are educators. My dad is a, he was a high school government and history teacher and followed into politics and everything. And my mom was a high school business teacher.

Shianne Gammon
And so I followed right into her footsteps. I didn’t think I was going to, and then I did. So she was a BPA teacher or advisor. I was a part of BPA, which is Business Professionals of America. And so I got into teaching and loved it.

Shianne Gammon
I just think student organizations are incredible and a huge part of education. And so I love the idea of working at the state level, because then you also get to do like some event planning and coordinating and networking. And so when this position opened up, I just knew I had to be a part of it.

Sam Demma
So previous to this role, tell me about your own career journey.

Shianne Gammon
Yes.

Shianne Gammon
So, I went to college, not quite sure what I was going to do. I was not going to do education like my parents. And then after like a year or two of wandering around, I was like, wait, okay, I will. I got a general business degree and then I went an alternate route into teaching so you can get certified through the state for CTE teaching if you hold a valid credential. Like I had done enough work experience in business through various things and then I got that certificate so that I could teach.

Shianne Gammon
And so before that I worked for like a mortgage company, a title company, I worked for a radio group, and then I got into teaching and I taught for five years and loved it. And then I actually, the only reason I really left was just because I had three small kids and we were going through the pandemic and it was just a little too many things going on my plate at the time.

Shianne Gammon
So I stepped outside of it. And then when this position opened up, it was perfect because it was like back in education, but not fully back in education. And I could have a little bit of both.

Sam Demma
And you’re busier than ever now, traveling non-stop.

Shianne Gammon
Busier than ever.

Sam Demma
What do you love most about the work you get to do today?

Shianne Gammon
I love, I think my first answer honestly is working with the student organizations, especially the state officers. So I get to help coordinate the state officers for both of the orgs I work with, and they are just the most incredible kids.

Shianne Gammon
I always, I recently were getting ready to travel to DC with some of them, and I would, we’re planning a conference, and we’re doing these things, and I was like, I don’t know if I’ve given them what they need from me to be successful. And so we had a meeting, and they were going over their stuff, and I was like, oh, wow, you guys are incredible. Like, you knew exactly what you needed to do.

Shianne Gammon
And so really watching them, they just, their emotional intelligence, all the things that they have right now is just awesome to watch because I did not. I was not like that at 18, and I feel like I was pretty good, but they are just, kids are amazing, and they know exactly sometimes what they wanna do, what they wanna be, and how to do it.

Sam Demma
And it’s so impressive. How do you build rapport and relationships with young people that you support, like the state officers and anyone who’s a part of the associations?

Shianne Gammon
Yeah, I think building relationships is key to everything. It’s so, so important. So, especially like when I was teaching before, I would say that that was the best thing. The thing I was most successful with, was teaching, was I could build a relationship with a kid. And then I would learn all the rest of things, like how to manage a classroom and how to like go through the curriculum.

Shianne Gammon
But I was able to just build it just because I think it’s important to see them as people and they are, they come from all different walks of life. They’re all struggling with different things or maybe not, but they all have different things going on. And so I would just kind of, I’m not just there for them to come in the class, do their work and leave.

Shianne Gammon
I want them like to be seen and whether they’re my most high-performing kids, low-performing kids in the middle, like, and sometimes that’s obviously really hard in education because maybe you have like 35 kids in your classroom and you can’t sit there and talk to every single one every single day. But I would just try to like talk to each of them, get to know them.

Shianne Gammon
Some of my favorite things I would do my last year or two of teaching was I’d even always like, I’d have all the snacks in my room. They knew they could come in and get fed. And that’s the thing, like kids come in and maybe they haven’t eaten, maybe they haven’t, you know, there’s a lot of things going on. And so I’d make sure to have the snacks.

Shianne Gammon
It was a safe place. And I would just try to teach them. I think that was a good thing about being a business teacher was I was going more like, when you were put into the business environment as an adult, no one is teaching you, like how to, they don’t take your phone away, they don’t sit down, you know, like you have to learn how to live your life and get your job done.

Shianne Gammon
And so I would try to focus with that. And same with the state officers is, I’m like, it’s not just I’m with you for the year and then I never see or speak to you again. Like it is, no, we are connected for life. We’ve been through the trenches for the year, and I want to see them all do great, great things and I think they can just feel that from me.

Sam Demma
You mentioned right before we started recording, this is the second year and I remember when we collaborated for the Idaho BPA State Leadership Conference that it was your first and you were excited, you were elated, you were nervous, you were all the emotions, you know, everything was going on. Give us a peek behind the curtain of planning a statewide conference.

Shianne Gammon
Whew, it was a doozy. It is a lot and it is amazing. It’s an amazing thing to do and put on and it really put me through a big test because I’m definitely the planner person anyways. Like I love to plan things.

Shianne Gammon
If someone’s like, we’re going on a trip, I’m like, cool, here’s the itinerary. I planned it. I know what we’re doing. So I love that part of it. And it was, what I’ve learned from it, it was very, very important for networking just because there’s so many pieces that go into it.

Shianne Gammon
And one of the big key takeaways too is that you’re never going to do an event and have every single person so happy with it. There’s probably something that went wrong somewhere. And I want to be in control of the whole entire thing. And like, this next year, I’m like, okay, we’re going to delegate a little better. Put the right people that we trust, we find those people, we put them in the right place, they’re in charge of that, and then at the end I’ll be like, cool, how did that go?

Shianne Gammon
But I can’t be everywhere at once. And so planning the event was just, there’s a lot of logistics behind it, of course, and getting the right space, getting the right people, getting all the information out that everyone needs to have all the time. But I would say that the biggest things are making sure that you’ve delegated everything out and all of that, because it is a lot.

Shianne Gammon
And there’s a reason that people have teams doing events, that it’s not always one person can do it. It’s like, yes, one person can do everything. You’re gonna die doing it. So it is better for your own health and honestly for the event to be able to have all those people in it.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I could tell you from personal experience, I’ve managed my own business for the past six years and I have a few too many gray hairs as a result of that decision. And only recently did I finally stop being stupid and ask somebody for some help.

Sam Demma
And I have a really lovely team member named Renata now who has supported me in ways that I would never have imagined possible. And it’s freeing up my mental space to generate new creative ideas. And she’s doing a better job at half of the things than I would be doing myself. And it’s like it hits your ego, but it’s the truth, you know?

Sam Demma
Tell me a little bit about managing other people. I guess that’s a part of your role as a leader, and it’s something I’m new to. What have you found that works really well when you think about your own leadership style?

Shianne Gammon
Managing people can be very difficult, because especially I can be a little bit more of a people pleaser as well. And it’s hard to delegate stuff out because I’m like, wait, wait, wait, no, I can just do it, I can just do it. And so it is definitely uncomfortable depending on who you are and your personality.

Shianne Gammon
But for me, I feel like very clear communication helps a lot in knowing the expectations. And I’m learning that about managing state officers as well, is that sometimes things that I think are common sense or that don’t need to be explained, it’s like, no, still, you should probably, setting expectations is huge.

Shianne Gammon
People need to know what, where their vision is, what is going on, like, why are we doing this? Because if you’re just asking them to do something without the why behind it, that’s so hard to get everyone going in the same direction.

Shianne Gammon
And so that’s what I’ve found to be the most successful is really just like, okay, here are the expectations that I expect from you, here’s what you can expect from me, because that’s also being transparent and having your own integrity of like, no, whatever I’m asking you to do, I will also be doing it.

Shianne Gammon
Because there’s nothing worse than having a manager that you’re like, wait, you’re not doing that though. And so, doing that and having this really clear communication and trust, honestly, you know, that’s like, okay, if I gave you a task, I’m trusting that it got done.

Shianne Gammon
Otherwise, it’s so hard to delegate it out or anything like that. And so, just setting some really good, clear expectations and boundaries with people goes a long way.

Sam Demma
I was talking to one of my mentors about some of the frustrations I was having with working with other people. And he said, well, did you train them on that thing you’re asking them to do? And I was like, no, I didn’t. And he’s like, well, then how can you expect them to know how to do it?

Sam Demma
I was like, damn. And so that idea of sharing the expectations up front, or providing the training up front to just let people know, like, this is when you know this is done. This is how we do this.

Sam Demma
Then at least you’re on that equal ground where you can turn around and say, hey, we did show you how to do this and you did share that you understood. Tell me where you’re still stuck. So I think that’s been really helpful for me.

Sam Demma
I echo all the things you just shared as well. And what is the part of the job right now that’s bringing you the most joy and fulfillment and excitement?

Shianne Gammon
That’s a good one. I would say the things that bring me – I always go to the people, honestly. People are, they are just what is so motivating and keep you going. Whether it’s my coworkers here in the office, I know if I’m coming in the office, it’s gonna be a good day.

Shianne Gammon
Like we’re gonna have fun. And I might grumble the whole way I’m driving. Once I’m here, it’s so fun and it is a good time. It’s a good team that you build. And like event-wise, I actually just took state officers to DC for the first time.

Shianne Gammon
And that was our first, like, so for BPA, they hadn’t done a leadership summit before. And so this was the second year they did it. They just implemented it last year. And so taking students to that and seeing the, they were seeing the bigger picture, they were seeing, they were advocating for CTE and for their orgs. And that was just super powerful to be a part of.

Shianne Gammon
And so I loved that. And then we came back and I just feel like now planning our event for our conference in March, I’m like, oh, we have ideas, we have things going on. These kids are gonna fully leave this year of their service, just great kids. And that is super fun to watch.

Sam Demma
So the people is the thing that kind of keeps you moving forward. Always. Where do you see yourself in five years from now?

Shianne Gammon
You know, great question.

Sam Demma
No pressure.

Shianne Gammon
No pressure.

Shianne Gammon
I would really, I don’t see myself leaving the position I’m in. Like, if we get, our team could grow, and so then maybe I wouldn’t have two orgs under me. Sure. But I see myself growing, especially BPA and Idaho even more, because FFA is its own beast, and it grows all the time anyways.

Shianne Gammon
And BPA will need a little bit more love and attention.

Sam Demma
Fair.

Shianne Gammon
So I see myself just really, really knowing my stuff. Just doing some good things for the org and growing our membership more and more. For Idaho and BPA, we’re like the 10th largest nationally and I would love to break higher into that.

Shianne Gammon
Like there are a couple states that we can catch pretty easily and I would love to do that and just honestly keep putting on some really great conferences, grow the networking, grow our alumni even more. I kind of see myself doing that and just really growing into that as well.

Sam Demma
One of the things a lot of educators mention on the show is that you can’t pour from an empty cup. You’re someone who has high energy and I know because I’ve worked with you and I can also feel it on this call. What do you do in your own time to ensure that your cup is full so you can show up energetic and optimistic and ready to serve others?

Shianne Gammon
I’m not always really great about keeping my cup full. It’s pouring into lots of different things, of course, but honestly, I will bring it back again to people. People fill my cup all the time. I, of course, am continually working on filling my own cup and making sure that I’m taking the space and time I need and maybe setting boundaries of that.

Shianne Gammon
I actually even forgot to take my computer home yesterday. So that’s a nice way of taking the time, get it set. So having those boundaries of that you don’t have to be available 24-7 to people, that it’s okay and that maybe when I leave here I’m taking off that hat and now I’m putting on my mom hat and after that’s off that I’m doing this and not that the mom hat’s ever fully off me but you know, just where the time is.

Shianne Gammon
But I think just spending time with people that help fill my cup is huge. That I’ve surrounded myself with really good people inside the workplace, outside the workplace, wherever it’s at, that I know I can go to to talk to, that we can just go have fun together, and that it honestly just resets it so quickly.

Shianne Gammon
But I think just finding, just enjoying what you’re doing is huge, that you have to really enjoy it. And that not every day is gonna be like, wow, I did something really, really exciting today. But it was still something that I loved doing and being a part of, and those small little wins every day are amazing as well.

Sam Demma
Were you involved in any CTSOs when you were a student?

Shianne Gammon
I was, so I was actually, I was a part of BPA. I’m trying to think of my school, it was a smaller school, so we didn’t have a ton of the orgs in there yet, but I was a part of BPA, and actually my mom was my BPA advisor.

Shianne Gammon
And she still is a BPA advisor, so it’s funny now because she comes to the conference that I’m putting on.

Sam Demma
Was she in Idaho last year?

Shianne Gammon
She was.

Sam Demma
She was?

Shianne Gammon
Yeah, and so she was like, oh, you’re kind of like my boss. I’m like, well, not really. But she’s going into year 30 of being a BPA advisor and teacher. It’s almost done. She’s got like two years left. She’s so close.

Shianne Gammon
But yes, I was a part of BPA growing up and it was super fun because me and some of my best friends who are still best friends to this day, competed together and we’re a team together. And so it was amazing just because it got us out of our small little Idaho town.

Shianne Gammon
We came to the big city of Boise for the state conference and you networked and you met people and then I was able to go to nationals and compete and meet more people. And some of those connections, you know, you still have to this day. So it was amazing to be a part of for sure.

Sam Demma
I can say firsthand as a guest, like the connections continue. I got a message from Dallin the other day and Job and I connect every now and then over Instagram. The community that shows up are just such nice people that are all striving to improve and do good things. So I hope that the conferences do grow and not that it’s about competing against other states, but go Idaho, go.

Shianne Gammon
Go Idaho, go.

Sam Demma
If there’s an educator listening to this who is just forgetting their why a little bit, they started this academic year feeling burnt out and we all have those moments, what advice would you give? Sometimes it’s helpful to hear advice from people that don’t know us, or almost like confide in people that don’t know who we are. Like, what advice do you think an educator who’s struggling right now could benefit from hearing?

Shianne Gammon
I think that if you’re struggling with your why, so one is making sure you’re taking care of you first, you know your co-workers and they’re having a great time but especially in teaching the why is obviously going to be the students and so maybe looking at especially if you’ve been teaching for more than just this is your first year but looking at students that you’ve had previously and seeing those success stories and the things they’re doing that are incredible, that you were a part of getting that kid to where they are, and that is huge.

Shianne Gammon
So just seeing that, or even honestly if it is the first year, and so they started in August and what success have they had so far now? Like maybe they’re making really great friends, maybe they are going reading better, doing math better, you know all those things as well, but maybe they’re just growing as a person and that in turn is helping shape and grow you as a teacher, as a person.

Shianne Gammon
It’s just sometimes it’s those little small wins. It’s not going to be a huge thing every time, but just seeing the little growth in those students is amazing to see. And sometimes you need to, you can’t see it for yourself, but looking at, that’s why I think especially past students, I know I’ve had one of my best friends is a teacher and she got a letter from a student recently and it was like we were all crying because we were like, oh my gosh, it is powerful that the things you’re doing are powerful, even if it doesn’t seem like it in a day to day.

Shianne Gammon
But just take that time to reflect and see and maybe seeing the teachers that have gotten you to where you’re at is huge and maybe a talk with them could help honestly and help reshape your why.

Sam Demma
Shianne, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show, share some of your ideas, talk about your educational journey. It’s been a pleasure having you on. Keep up the amazing work and I hope to connect again soon.

Shianne Gammon
Awesome, thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Shianne Gammon

December 19, 2024 by Sam Demma CSTO Education Student Leadership Student Success 0

Stephen Hoyland – Assistant Superintendent Education Services at Battle River School Division

About Stephen Hoyland

Stephen Hoyland is the Assistant Superintendent -Education Services at Battle River School Division in Camrose, Alberta. Over his career, Stephen has taught Grades 4 to 12 ranging in subjects from Art, English, Social Studies and French.
Stephen was a school administrator for thirteen years. He took on the role of Director of Human Resources for three years and now is in his second year as Assistant Superintent – Education Services.

Throughout his career, Stephen has worked closely with students to promote their voice and ideas through student councils. Stephen believes that teachers succeed by listening to and learning from their students, as their voices shape meaningful impact in our schools. In order to make a difference in the lives of students and teachers, Stephen strives to be relationship focused, collaborative, energetic and hopeful.

Connect with Stephen Hoyland: Email | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Battle River School Division

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. Today we are joined by my friend, Stephen Hoyland. Stephen is the Assistant Superintendent of Educational Services with the Battle River School Division. Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the show here today.

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, Sam, I’m so excited. Thanks for having me. It means a lot just to spend some time with you today.

Sam Demma
I’m so excited to chat with you. Did you know when you were a student yourself that one day you’d be working supporting staff and students?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, for when I was a kid, no. When I actually did become a teacher, a lot of my friends that I went to high school with, they couldn’t believe that I was the guy that actually became the teacher from the class. I knew, Sam, like I had some great teachers and that made some impact in me when I was young.

Stephen Hoyland
I remember I was in grade six and I was struggling with my spelling, and the teacher sent me to a remedial room, and I just remember how that felt—like I was being pulled out. The teacher in there, after about a week, he came up to me, and this wouldn’t be said now in a class, but he said, “Stephen, are you stupid?” And I—it was a shock. And I said, “Pardon?” He goes, “Like, honestly, are you stupid?” And I said, “No.” And he goes, “Exactly. Don’t ever, ever forget that. And I never want to see you back here.”

Stephen Hoyland
For me, that was one of those moments where I went, okay. I wasn’t expecting a teacher to say that. Like I said, a teacher would never say that now, but for me, it was pivotal. I saw somebody that believed that I could actually do what I needed to do. That was one of those moments where I went, okay, I can build on this, and I can have faith in myself. And yeah, in grade six, I really started to realize, hey, I can do this.

Stephen Hoyland
I had some teachers along the lines that really challenged me in high school and made me realize my potential. And so what I did, Sam, is I love challenges. When I finished high school, I came from a small town in Alberta where nobody spoke French, and I wanted to be bilingual. I just—I wanted to be bilingual.

Stephen Hoyland
I wanted to be able to be that Canadian that could speak French and English. So I enrolled in what was called the Faculty Saint-Jean through the University of Alberta. I took my degree there, and I did not know hardly any French. I was just someone that was supported by a lot of different people, whether they were from Quebec or Francois-Breton. They really helped me and made me realize that, okay, if I have a challenge, if I have a dream, there are going to be people there that can help me. And yeah, I became bilingual, and that really opened up many doors for me in my career.

Sam Demma
You said you love challenges. Was it always like that for you, or where did that come from?

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it has always been—I love challenges. Coming from a small town, knowing that post-secondary was the key to opening a lot of doors, I just knew that if I wanted to do something that was going to be enriching and bring me happiness, I needed to set goals. Setting the goal to become bilingual, even though I hardly knew any French—I took three years of French in high school—and deciding, okay, I want to become bilingual, immerse myself, go to Quebec, take university there, and travel the world. That mindset of creating new goals was huge for me.

Stephen Hoyland
When I became a teacher, I started thinking outside of the box. I began teaching new courses, courses I had absolutely no reference to, and learned from that. I just kept on pushing myself to do what I needed to do. Eventually, Sam, it came to going to different schools and being identified as, “Hey, are you interested in administration? We think you’d be a great fit.” I threw myself out there. One thing I said when I was young in my career was, “I love being a teacher. I don’t want to be an administrator.” Then I became an assistant principal—I loved it. After a while, I decided, “Okay, I’m going to become a principal.” During that time, I also pursued my master’s, which I said I never wanted to go back to university for. But I learned from that and kept setting those goals. That was important.

Sam Demma
How important do you think it is for young people to set goals? It sounds like it had a big impact on you.

Stephen Hoyland
You know, when you’re young—I mean middle school—you’re really enjoying your friends, your peer groups, and at that point, the goals aren’t at the forefront. But I really do believe that if you have a bit of an idea of what’s going to make you happy, what’s going to give you contentment in life, then focus on a goal at that age. Once you get into high school, I think this can be difficult for young people too. Often, family or neighbors are asking, “What are you going to do when you’re done school? What do you want to do?” That puts a lot of pressure on kids.

Stephen Hoyland
I think if kids have a bit of an idea of what they might like to do, that makes a big difference. Starting with a small goal, and then life experiences can really build upon that and direct you into something that’s going to bring you happiness.

Sam Demma
You’ve offered an insight into your own story of the goal you set. Typically, when we think about goals, we think about students’ career-path-related goals. But your goal was to learn French. You didn’t say, “I want to be a French teacher,” or “I want to teach a language in the future.” You said, “There’s a skill out there that I’m curious about, and I want to improve at it and learn.” And it opened doors for you. I think if we can encourage more young people to set goals related to their curiosities or just building skills, the building of a skill will open doors or pathways in the future.

Sam Demma
Most of the time, when you become proficient or good at something, you can add value—and we need people that can add value. And I still suck at French. So if I met your grade six teacher, he would probably be like, “Sam, are you stupid?”

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, and you know, yeah, and it’s—you’ve nailed it. It’s just about finding those things, those skill sets, that bring you that fulfillment and, at the same time, challenge you. Run with it and grow as a person.

Sam Demma
There’s a book that I was recently recommended by my godfather. I played golf with him and my dad recently, and he manages lots of people in his role. So I was asking him about leadership and managing others, and he told me to check out this book called Principles by Ray Dalio. He said it was foundational in the way he leads his teams.

Sam Demma
I was reading the book, and one of the statements stuck out to me. It said, “The success doesn’t come from achieving the goal; it comes from struggling well in the pursuit of the goal.” And I thought, you know, there are so many times in my life where I’ve reached the outcome that I thought was going to make me feel good. And when I hit the thing or achieve the quote-unquote goal, I actually felt kind of lost—like, because now I’m not struggling towards anything anymore.

Sam Demma
In your own journey, do you have any other goals? What are things that are causing you to struggle these days? What’s pulling Stephen forward?

Stephen Hoyland
Oh, that’s such a great question. In my role right now, Sam, I’m responsible for the learning that takes place in our school division. Over the last year, I’ve learned a lot about math and numeracy. As I said, I learned French and then became a humanities teacher. Now, in my new role, I am learning an awful lot around math and numeracy. I had to create some goals for myself last year.

Stephen Hoyland
One of them was to become more proficient at understanding what math and numeracy are and how I can support teachers. Over the last year, I’ve really dived into data and become a lot more data-informed with my team. Now I can look at results and say, “Oh my gosh, take a look at where these results are. This is what we need to do.”

Stephen Hoyland
So for me, as a goal right now, it is to better understand how I can support students to become better math and numeracy learners in our school division—and, with that, what I need to do to support our teachers. So right now, math and numeracy are something I am totally immersed in, learning more than I’ve ever known.

Sam Demma
Wow, that’s awesome, man. I think those are skills that benefit anybody, no matter what pathway they pursue in the future as well.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam Demma
One of the things that stood out to me when we collaborated with some of your schools and with Rayanne, your colleague, was that all the decisions you were making were based on data. And I think it’s so important that we make decisions based on data, not our personal assumptions or opinions.

Sam Demma
In fact, I’m making all these connections because now I’m reading this book. But this gentleman, Ray, was running a hedge fund, and that was the majority of his career. The decisions they were making were based on all the data they collected on the stock markets and different companies. They would input equations that would take all the previous data of years of financial numbers and projections and say, “If we made this decision based on all the previous data, what would our outcome be?”

Sam Demma
Then people would argue about it, saying, “Well, no, we need to do this.” Their philosophy was, “We have constructive disagreements, and then we test our ideas on data. Whatever the best outcome the data shows us, we move forward with that.” I think that’s kind of how you operate and how Rayanne and your team operate. Has the data surprised you in any way, shape, or form based on student needs or things that are happening in the schools?

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it has. There have definitely been some great surprises. Last year, we created a new survey that we shared with parents, guardians, students, teachers—basically anybody that was a stakeholder. We put it out there and had a great response. There was a lot of positive feedback around where our school division has been and what we were doing to move forward.

Stephen Hoyland
It was kind of an affirmation of the positive things that have been happening in our school division for probably the last several years. Then there was also that voice saying, “Hey, have you considered this?” That’s the point, Sam, where we’re at right now—like, okay, we’ve done some really good things, but now it’s time to look at what other things we have to try. That came out of the data as well.

Stephen Hoyland
The thing I’ve learned with it is, if you’re going to ask people’s opinions—if you’re going to say, “We need this data”—you have to do something with it. You have to let everybody know that you’re actually doing something with it. Because it’s meaningless if you just take it in and don’t share those results or the next steps. That’s the biggest takeaway for me: if you want people’s opinions, if you want their voice, you have to make sure you value it and follow through with it.

Sam Demma
We have interacted three or four times now—three, maybe two or three times on Zoom calls, and once in person. There’s been a couple of consistent things every time: we’ve always laughed in some capacity, we’ve always smiled, and we’ve always shared stories. I’m wondering—you strike me as someone who’s very optimistic and someone who looks for the positive sides of things in life, because it is a choice. Is that something you taught yourself to do? Was it passed down from your parents? In a world filled with challenges, we could choose to focus on anything. You hold this really positive energy—where does it come from?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, yeah, I definitely grew up in a home where there was lots of love. There was always support from my parents. And then I married a wonderful, wonderful high school sweetheart, I guess you could say. We’ve tried to create a family where our kids know there’s always love, and we try to be optimistic about everything.

Stephen Hoyland
One thing I try to do, Sam, every day when I walk into this building is—people ask me how I’m doing, and I’m honest, and I’m usually excellent. And I’m excellent because my drive in could have been a wonderful sunrise, I had a great coffee, I listened to some great songs—I listened to The Lumineers this morning, man, that woke me up, it was fantastic. Just finding those little nuggets in life that really bring you contentment, because life is good. There’s a lot of great things. If you can find that and be that example for other people, you can spread that optimism and that energy.

Stephen Hoyland
It’s much easier to have a smile than a frown. And you know what? Hurt is contagious too, but people need energy, people need positivity. If I can come across as authentic—which is my goal—I want people to understand that there’s a lot of good things happening in life, and I try to find that every day.

Sam Demma
I think it also models the behavior for students. Like you said, it’s contagious, and especially as an adult or a teacher. I remember some of my teachers—I’d walk into the room and hear, “Good morning, how’s everyone doing?” Some kids were still waking up, but I’d reply, “Good morning, sir, how are you?” It really wakes you up.

Sam Demma
I’ve even had experiences in my own life where I was feeling upset or frustrated, and I walked onto a bus where the driver was singing music and cracking jokes. The way other people show up and the energy they carry has an impact on how I feel. I think it’s the same in the workplace or in school buildings. When you think of people who have had a big impact on you, who comes to mind? I’m assuming your parents, it sounds like. But have you had any other mentors or role models who have really shaped the way you think about things? When you think about your own journey, who are the people whose names you can’t leave out?

Stephen Hoyland
I was really fortunate growing up in a small town, so I got to know a lot of people who made a difference in my life—neighbors who were like grandparents. But as time went by, I’ve had the privilege of working with some wonderful, wonderful teachers and other administrators—assistant principals who have given me great inspiration and affirmation around the work we were doing together.

Stephen Hoyland
For me, it’s about being part of a team and surrounding yourself with people who challenge you, inspire you, and feed you with their energy and great ideas. Right now, I’m on a team that fills my bucket every day, brings me energy, and challenges me to think and do better. So to answer your question, it’s surrounding yourself with people who lift you up and are open to great suggestions—while you’re also open to theirs—and you work collaboratively. And honestly, my kids. I have three kids, and they give me a lot of inspiration, great ideas, and they inspire me to do better.

Sam Demma
One of the things my godfather told me while golfing was this: “You have to create an environment that encourages mistakes but doesn’t tolerate not learning from them.” So when a mistake is made, it’s like, “Congratulations, let’s talk about this,” and then you have an open conversation.

Sam Demma
In your own career, are there any quote-unquote “mistakes” or learning lessons that have been instrumental for you—aside from the fact that you cheer for the wrong hockey team? Is there anything else that sticks out?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, yeah, over my career, I’ve definitely made some mistakes. I’m just trying to pinpoint something… Well, you know what? It kind of ties to mistakes and challenges. I wanted to become bilingual, so I went to the Faculté Saint-Jean. After a year, I realized, “I can’t do this. I just cannot. I don’t have what it takes.” And my dad said, “Well, you know what, son? If it’s something you can’t do, then look at other options.”

Stephen Hoyland
So what I did was I applied to another faculty that was all in English. At that time, I thought it was a great idea. I got accepted and was ready to leave the Faculté Saint-Jean. But something pivotal happened. I went to Quebec for a summer. I went to university there for three months, and during that time, I realized, “I can do this. I do have what it takes.”

Stephen Hoyland
During that summer, I was writing letters back to the university, saying, “Please, I don’t want to leave. I want to stay. This is where I want to be.” Thankfully, I was able to stay. At the time, I thought it was too much, but stepping back and reflecting helped me realize I could do it. Sometimes you need to put things in perspective and understand you’re not alone—there are people who will help you. Part of it is believing in yourself.

Stephen Hoyland
What happened, Sam, is I actually took an extra year to get my first degree. That’s because it was all in French, and I look back at that now—it was probably the best thing I ever did.

Sam Demma
Year well spent.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it sure was.

Sam Demma
Your role now is having such a great impact on so many—you’re supporting staff, whole school buildings, and students and their families. What is your leadership style? How do you believe you effectively lead other people?

Stephen Hoyland
You know, I really believe, Sam, that it’s about the team. I believe I need to be in contact with administrators, principals, and assistant principals. I need to be talking with teachers. For me, it’s about getting their voice and weighing their ideas with my own thoughts. I want to consider what I think is best versus what’s practical.

Stephen Hoyland
For me, my approach is transparency. To be transparent, I need to listen and collaborate with those people who are walking the walk and learning every day. Being very collaborative is the basis of how I lead.

Sam Demma
Outside of the work you do with the school board, what do you do personally to ensure your own cup is full so you’re showing up laughing, smiling, and supporting others?

Stephen Hoyland
One thing my wife and I truly love to do is hiking. We live on the prairies, but we have beautiful access to land where we can hike. On those hikes, we’ll see elk, deer, and all sorts of birds and animals. That really grounds me—it brings me peace and contentment.

Stephen Hoyland
Spending time with my family is also huge. My kids live in Edmonton and Calgary, so we visit them as much as possible. That brings a sense of connection and fulfillment. Talking a lot with my wife is important too—having someone who understands life and listens to you makes a big difference.

Stephen Hoyland
And one more thing, Sam—I’ve been trying meditation. I’ve been doing it for about two months now, and I’m a huge fan of it.

Sam Demma
Ah, that’s awesome, man. I’m so glad it’s going well.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, it’s great.

Sam Demma
I’ve had good experiences myself, and when things feel more challenging, I notice I haven’t meditated in a while. Maybe there’s a correlation.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, I totally get that. Meditation is very peaceful—it’s kind of like a reboot.

Sam Demma
Yeah, it helps you. One of my friends said meditation is not about calming your mind, it’s about losing your mind. Recognizing that some of your thoughts aren’t even yours, and you can let them pass by.

Stephen Hoyland
Yeah, absolutely.

Sam Demma
This whole conversation felt like a nice reset or reboot for me. I appreciate you taking the time to share your ideas, philosophies, and stories. I hope we have another chance to cross paths soon. And when we do, hopefully, there won’t be any bears or elk around—I don’t care much for those things. But keep up the great work, my friend. It’s a pleasure to chat.

Stephen Hoyland
Thanks so much, Sam, and thanks for making a difference in so many lives.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Stephen Hoyland

December 10, 2024 by Sam Demma Battle School Division Education Educator Student Leadership Student Success 0

Martina Fasano – Principal at St. Elizabeth Catholic High School

About Martina Fasano

Martina Fasano began her teaching career in 2003 at YCDSB’s St. Joan of Arc Catholic High School. She also taught grade 8 at Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Elementary School before returning to the secondary panel and eventually serving as the department head of Canadian and World Studies at St. Maximilian Kolbe, where she taught economics, law, and history. As a vice-principal, Martina has had the honour and privilege of serving both the Our Lady Queen of the World Catholic Academy as well as the St. Brother Andre Catholic High School communities prior to being appointed as the principal of St. Elizabeth.

Martina has served on various committees at the Board level, including the YSCPC (York Secondary Catholic President’s Council), Drug and Alcohol Awareness (DAW), and the Covid-19 Logistics and Planning Committee. She was also a member of the committee that developed teacher resources for the history curriculum revisions which focused on the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s Calls to Action to embed Indigenous history into the grade 10 history curriculum in Ontario. As a member of the Ontario History and Social Science Teacher’s Association (OHASSTA), Martina also developed curriculum-based teacher modules on behalf of the Ontario Ministry of Education as part of a targeted project about the role of school trustees.

Throughout her career, Martina’s passion for engaging students has been at the forefront of her efforts toward forward thinking curriculum development in the social sciences, student leadership, school-based digital tool implementation, arts education, school/student safety, and data-informed school improvement. She has also had the opportunity to work with music industry professionals in the capacity of musician, author, social media manager, and public relations strategy. These experiences have allowed Martina to connect student learning to the world beyond the classroom, and bring exciting and dynamic opportunities to the school communities that she has served.

Connect with Martina Fasano: Email | Instagram

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, S potify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

St. Joan of Arc Catholic High School

Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Elementary School

St. Maximilian Kolbe

Our Lady Queen of the World Catholic Academy

St. Brother Andre Catholic High School

St. Elizabeth Catholic High School

Ontario History and Social Science Teacher’s Association

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by my good friend, Martina Fasano. Martina and I met just over a year ago now. She began her teaching career just over 20 years ago, and she is now a phenomenal principal of a school in the York Catholic District School Board. I’m going to allow her to introduce herself.

Sam Demma
Martina, please share a little bit about who you are with the audience.

Martina Fasano
Thank you so much for having me, Sam. Yeah, it’s been almost over a year now, which before you did your first gig here at St. E’s. So yes, I’m the principal here at St. Elizabeth Catholic High School, home of the Regional Arts Program as well, and having a great time.

Sam Demma
So you have one of the most interactive offices I’ve ever walked into in a school building. There are records hanging on the wall, guitars, and interesting objects on the shelves. Tell me a little bit about your own involvement in the arts that makes you so passionate about being at St. Elizabeth.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely, so I’ve been myself a musician probably since I was about maybe in the fifth grade or so. I’m not counting the drum set that I got when I was about four years old. But so that part is something very near and dear to my heart. Arts education in general for me was really something that helped shape who I am and the self-discipline that came from it. It was an even playing field, is what I would call it.

You start out where I was very fortunate. I was in a school board in Toronto, a Toronto Catholic as a student, and we started our music education programs there in grade 6 with a full band program. So that was the first time I had actually played music in a group, and you basically had a chance to start from scratch and learn an instrument, practice, and do all those things.

And I figured out very quickly that if you just practice and you play all the right notes at the right time, then everything sounds nice. So that’s kind of a metaphor too, for life in general, which is kind of where I took it. I started out as a saxophone player—that was my first instrument—together with piano. And then by the time I got to be a teenager, I added guitar in there because I was listening to a lot of rock, metal, and grunge at the time. It was the height of the grunge era, let’s say, with Nirvana and Pearl Jam and all those guys.

But definitely something that I carried into adulthood, into university. You jump from high school into post-secondary or into “What am I going to do with my life?” To quote Dee Snider from Twisted Sister, “What are you going to do with your life?” We want to rock, right? So I looked at going into the music industry from a more—not just the creative aspect—but looked into the business side of things.

That didn’t really resonate with me because I wasn’t doing anything that I enjoyed in my post-secondary program. I started out in business administration, and I thought, “I can’t do this for the rest of my life. I’m bored. There’s no creativity happening anywhere.” People work in cubicles. I can’t do that. And that’s why my office looks the way it does. It needs to have things in it that bring joy, make me happy, and serve as conversation pieces.

Because when a student walks in, for me, this is just my workspace. But for a student, especially if they’ve never been in trouble, they assume the principal is there to get you in trouble. So I don’t see it that way. But I noticed very early on in my career as an administrator, they see the title that’s on the door. And I noticed that having a lot of these little things around helped kind of put them at ease because they were conversation pieces.

So we get to that before we get to why the student was there. And most often, the student actually is not here because they’re in trouble. So it’s kind of a reputation thing—people think you only get sent to the principal’s office when you’re in trouble—but we’re dealing a lot more with supporting students as opposed to discipline.

Sam Demma
Well, you’re also the only principal that has a record on the wall with the plaque and their name on it. What is it all about?

Martina Fasano
So, the one that’s hanging in my office was actually when I left a school I was at, St. Maximilian Colby. The Canadian World Studies Department re-recorded Hotel California and changed all the lyrics as a goodbye gift. So that’s what’s hanging on the wall. And the little plaque actually has all of the changed lyrics, which are actually quite funny if you read them.

And it’s interesting because I do have a real one at home that 17-year-old me probably would have been really, really happy about. And, you know, wouldn’t have believed me if I said, “You’re going to end up getting a platinum record, but it’s not for what you think.” You’re not going to be in the band, you’re not going to be one of the producers, and you’re not going to be one of the managers, but it’s going to happen by way of your involvement in the music industry somehow.

And I would have laughed at you and said, “Sure, okay, whatever.” But I ended up being a ghostwriter for a rock musician, and that was the gift. The gift was the platinum record from the Guardians of the Galaxy soundtrack because the band that the artist originally recorded with, The Runaways, which is Joan Jett’s first band, had a number-one song, Cherry Bomb, which went to number one when Guardians of the Galaxy came out as a movie.

So, the record went platinum, and that person that I ghostwrote for was in that band. They got the platinum record and decided to also get me one because I was working on her book at the time. It was just about finished when that happened.

So that’s kind of cool. You’re right, I don’t know of any other principals that maybe came to education for the same reason. For me, it was like, “Why do you want to work with young people? Why do you want to specifically be around teenagers all day?” I get that question a lot.

And for me, it’s quite easy. There’s an energy to young people and a hope to young people that they naturally have that unfortunately, for a long time, schools have kind of almost stifled. And I thought in my wisdom as a young person myself when I made the decision, “If I can maybe change the way schools work, maybe it doesn’t have to be boring, maybe it doesn’t have to be something where there’s all these expectations, instead of actually cultivating a lifelong love of learning.”

Because when you look at, “My mom really wants me to do this and go to university to have this job, and I don’t want to do it, and I don’t know how to tell her,” I’ve had quite a few conversations with students and their parents about that. The fact that I switched my major halfway through from business administration to fine arts cultural studies, talk about a complete polar opposite.

But you have to find what brings you joy. You can make lots of money and maybe even be powerful in some cases doing something that you don’t enjoy. But you’re not going to be as good at it, in my view. You’re not going to be as fulfilled as a human being. And in the end, for me, it was like, I would like to be for young people what I would have needed at the age that I was at all along the way.

And that goes for why I became a vice principal or a principal as well. What did I need when I was a first-year teacher? So that’s what you try to be for somebody else.

Sam Demma
What do you think first-year teachers need to hear, specifically ones that are starting in the education space today, with so much change, especially coming out of the pandemic?

Martina Fasano
That they don’t need to be afraid to take a risk. That it is supposed to be difficult, that all great things are, but that they don’t have to do school and classrooms the way maybe they experienced and to not be afraid to be different.

Because right now, in my personal view, we’ve been doing education wrong for a long time. We have all the great people in the buildings, we have all the great programming in the buildings, we have a curriculum that helps us open those doors. But we are also based on a model that came to be in the 1800s as part of the Industrial Revolution.

Public education was meant to get everyone in line and trained to go to work. Sitting in rows, being obedient, and doing repetitive drills—memorization and all these things. Maybe for that world, those were the skills that were needed. But right now, we live in a world that schools haven’t caught up with yet, if that makes sense.

A perfect example: I was at the Billie Eilish concert last night, and you have the stereotype that young people are lazy, not passionate about things. I saw about 20,000 young people who were quite passionate about what they were seeing. They weren’t bored, they weren’t lazy—they were jumping up and down. The place was almost thunderous.

And in my view, I thought to myself, “This is what school should be like with all these young people in a building. Why are we trying to make everybody so quiet?” It doesn’t make sense to me. So part of being here at St. Elizabeth and having the Regional Arts Program here is that you get to showcase that. You get to see people being creative all day long.

Even if someone’s not in the Regional Arts Program, they still get the benefit of being in that space where creativity is free to flow and to happen. It has an impact on the children that surround those kids that are in the program.

So that’s definitely what I say to a first-year teacher: Don’t be afraid to take the risk. Don’t be afraid to be authentic. The students will see right through you if you’re not.

Sam Demma
I perform at many schools, and I intentionally call it a performance for the same reason you think students shouldn’t be quiet. Like, it needs to be an experience where they have a say and a voice in it, and it speaks to them on an emotional level—not just an educational level—and evokes emotion.

So many times, I’ll finish a speech or a performance, and one of the teachers will walk over and go, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry that the students were so loud.” And I say, “No, I encourage it! I egg them on throughout the performance. I want that. Yes, this is what we want. We don’t want them to just sit there with their legs crossed and hands on their lap, just looking in silence.”

Martina Fasano
Yep. You don’t learn if you’re being passive; there’s no learning happening. I distinctly remember being in my second year of teaching, and I was teaching English at the time. The play we were doing was Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet.

I always had a problem with Shakespeare being taught the way it was. I used to say, “Us reading Shakespeare like a book is the same as showing children a movie by reading the screenplay.” It’s a play—you’re not supposed to be reading it; you’re supposed to be acting it out.

So, I had a relatively rowdy class. I remember that distinctly. I said, “I can’t do this to these kids. The things my department gave me to use, this is not what we’re going to do. We can’t do this. These children will not only get nothing out of this and miss the complete point of the story, but you cannot expect a young person to want to read that old English text as a dramatic piece and not ask them to act it out and see what’s going on.”

So, we constructed this day where we said, “First, we have to figure out what this section of the play is about. Where are we? What’s going on? Romeo and Juliet meet at the party.” So, we basically said, “We’re going to make it a masquerade party.”

We made masks and everything else. I had the vice principal, bless her heart, come by. There was all this noise coming out of my classroom. She knocks on the door, and I opened it, horrified. I thought, “Oh my God, someone must have complained, or something happened.”

I explained, “We’re acting it out because it’s a play.” And there was this pause, and I thought, “This is it; I’m in trouble.” But then she said, “I’m so glad that all this noise is coming out of here because it means the kids are learning. Keep it up and have a nice day.”

The kids thought they were in trouble too! What does that say? If we’re learning stuff and having a good time, we must be in trouble? So, as a classroom teacher, I made it a point to do things that are fun. You have to because if you don’t, you don’t learn. Even if some of them are cheesy or purposely cheesy, they’ll remember them because they’re memorable.

Sam Demma
I couldn’t agree more. I absolutely love that you shared that story, and I hope the educator listening to this reshapes how they think about student engagement. There’s a phenomenal book I’ve been reading called The Advantage by a guy named Patrick Lencioni. He talks about the difference between really successful organizations and ones that fall flat on their face.

One thing he mentions is cohesion among the leadership team. It could be cohesion in a classroom or a staff room. He says the whole team needs to weigh in their thoughts and have constructive disagreements. If the whole team doesn’t weigh in, they won’t buy in.

So, if there’s no weigh-in, there’s no buy-in. That stuck out in my head. When you think about a classroom, students weigh in by using their voice. You don’t want silent people silently agreeing. Silent agreement means they’ll leave the classroom and tell their friends, “I disagree with everything we just talked about in the classroom.”

You want thoughtful disagreement to come up with the best ideas. I love that you shared that story. Thank you so much.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. There’s a lot more where that came from. I eventually got the hint that if you don’t engage them, they won’t learn. Some of those kids in that class had repeated referrals to the office when they were in someone else’s class—repeated.

I knew that coming in because sometimes, unfortunately, I’d get warned and told, “Oh, you have so-and-so; watch out.” I did my best to know my audience. The best thing about teaching is the powerful, real-time feedback.

If you’re teaching a lesson and everyone’s asleep, guess what? You’re not reaching anybody. But you have that feedback in front of you. If you’re willing to step away from what you think you should be, because maybe that’s what you were used to or how you learned, you can adjust.

We’re preparing students for a world that doesn’t even exist yet, using methods and tools from an era long gone. Then we wonder why students aren’t engaged or willing to take creative risks. Starting from when they’re four years old, we teach them compliance. Line up in a straight line, or you get in trouble.

Structure is important because people thrive in it, but there’s a difference between structure for compliance and structure for growth. They’re two very different things.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I love that. It’s like having a fence that keeps people in a space, but within that fence, there’s freedom. Is there any experience you’ve had as an educator or principal where you’ve had a big learning experience—something you tried that didn’t work out the way you thought but became a pivotal learning moment?

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. One of the first things I learned as an administrator was related to communication. Let’s say there’s an initiative or a memo you put out, and a couple of teachers don’t follow through or do something different.

It’s easy to send a staff-wide email saying, “Remember to do this,” when really, you’re talking to just two people. I learned from doing that once that it’s not the best approach.

As a classroom teacher, how would I feel if I got that email and I was already doing everything right? So now, when I communicate, I think about the high-performing teachers doing amazing work. I base my decisions on the best people in the organization, not the outliers who didn’t follow through this week.

That applies to classroom management too. If you punish the whole class for one student’s behavior, it affects everyone’s morale. Make decisions based on your best people—it goes a long way.

Sam Demma
That’s such good feedback. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, and I know the person listening feels the same. If they want to reach out, is it okay to put your email on the podcast page?

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. They can also follow me on Instagram, where we post about our school’s Regional Arts Program, performances, exhibits, and more. There’s always a lot going on, which is why the hive metaphor works—it’s always buzzing, and that’s a good thing.

Sam Demma
It’s been such a pleasure. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Martina Fasano
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sam. All the best.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Martina Fasano

December 3, 2024 by Sam Demma Education Educator Mental Health Principals School Administration Student Leadership Teachers 0

Brian Robson – Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU) at Ontario Tech University

About Brian Robson

Brian Robson is the Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union (OTSU) at Ontario Tech University in Oshawa, Ontario, where he leads a team of full-time, part-time and student staff who strive to enhance the campus experience for nearly 11,000 students. At the OTSU, Brian steward policies, mentors student executives, oversees elections, oversees numerous services, programs and events as well as over 100 Clubs & Societies, liaises with University Senior Leaders, and charts long-term strategic planning.

Prior to joining OTSU in late 2023, Brian was a Director of Training Programs and Business Development at Toronto Metropolitan University (TMU) for several years. There, he directed the action-research teams leading entrepreneurship and skills-training programs at local, provincial and national levels. He has presented papers on this work at international and national conferences. Prior to TMU, Brian served in previous roles in Financial Services, education and non-profit organizations. He earned a PhD in Systematic Theology from the University of Toronto, and an MBA (Globalization) from the Ted Rogers School of Management at TMU. His passion is shaping emerging leaders and diverse teams for the future of work in a changing economy.

Connect with Brian Robson: Linkedin

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Toronto Metropolitan University (TMU)

Ted Rogers School of Management

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode on the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma, and today we are joined by Brian Robson. Brian is the Executive Director of the Ontario Tech Student Union for the Ontario Tech University in Oshawa. It is the university of the Durham region, and that’s where I’m from. Brian, it’s so awesome to have someone on the show today that’s basically from the backyard. How are you?

Brian Robson
Good, thank you. You’re my homie here today.

Sam Demma
It’s good. Yeah, man. Did you grow up in the Durham region or where is home for you?

Brian Robson
I did not. I actually grew up out west. I’ve lived in three different provinces in Canada, four different city centers, but I have been in Durham region for a number of years now. I bought my first house out here and still here, and I’ve lived in Pickering, Whitby, Ajax. So, it has been home now for a long time.

Sam Demma
Did you know when you were growing up, living in different provinces or different cities that one day you would work in education? Or what brought you here in your own career pathway?

Brian Robson
Yeah, that’s a great question. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I did get a sense of that, I guess, sort of mid to late teens. Mid to late teens, just with some stuff that I was involved in, kind of like you, I discovered that I was good at public speaking. And so I had a chance to use that and to be involved in different things where I had a chance to do that. People would say to me, they say, “You’re a teacher. That’s kind of your thing. You’re a teacher kind of guy.” And I sort of stuck and I realized, yeah, I guess that’s kind of what I am. So then when I started my post-secondary education journey, which has been long, I kind of realized that that is where I would like to be, is in the post-secondary space. I don’t want to be a high school teacher, elementary school teacher. I want post-secondary. So I went on then to earn several degrees, including a PhD from the University of Toronto with the intention of being a professor. So that was my goal, that was my career objective. But the reason I wanted to become a professor is because I didn’t want to just be a subject matter expert and I didn’t want to just teach a subject. I wanted to shape students. So my tagline for a long, long time has been empowering or emerging leaders. So I wanted to build leaders. I wanted to educate and empower emerging leaders. And I thought I would do that in the classroom. Now, long story short, that’s actually not how it turned out, but I am doing that. I’m just doing it now outside the classroom in a university context rather than inside the classroom. So things took a turn from where I thought they would go, but I did end up meeting the same objective that I had set out to do.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. It’s interesting that you’ve kind of discerned the age group you wanted to work with while you were still going through school on who you wanted to serve. Why leadership? Why developing leaders? Was there something about your upbringing or childhood that made that a central theme for you?

Brian Robson
Oh man, that’s a really good question. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything explicit, but I was aware, I am aware, I’ve always been aware, all of us are shaped by who our leaders are, right? So whether it’s our parents, or whether it’s our bosses at work, or whether it’s in the school context, whatever, we’re all shaped by our leaders for better or for worse. Even though there’s a trillion books on leadership and all kinds of literature and courses and workshops and resources, we still have, I think, a dearth of really good leaders in our society. And so it’s up to the emerging generations to kind of take up that mantle and to learn how to do it right. And so to learn what true, you know, effective, empowering leadership is really all about. I just sort of knew from, I guess, in my own educational journey that the power of education is where you can do that. It’s a great context for shaping people, not just academically with their courses and with their knowledge, with their academic programs, but way beyond that into sort of more people-building, cultivating values and principles, and finding your place in the world, right?

Sam Demma
When you think of good leaders or great leaders, what are some of the things you think they do differently? Or they do that other not-so-effective leaders might not be doing? I ask it from a personal perspective because, for the first time in my life, I find myself leading others in my own work, and I want to improve myself. I want to become a better leader myself.

Brian Robson
That’s another fantastic question. I think that it’s sort of a mindset and a perspective. What differentiates great leaders from mediocre leaders or poor leaders is really having the right mindset regarding what leadership is. Leadership is not about power or wielding power or having authority over other people. It is about empowerment. There’s a very common term that’s very prevalent in leadership literature, and it’s been around for a long time—even since ancient times. It’s called servant leadership, right? So true, really good leaders are servants. They’re not masters. They are humble, not arrogant. Somebody once asked me—it was actually in a job interview process for a post-secondary school position—they asked me a great question: “What’s the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?” And something came to me quickly. The best leadership advice I ever got was: Don’t own it. What he meant by that was, it’s not actually yours. You have to separate yourself from the thing that you are leading. Great leaders don’t own it because leadership is temporary. You’re going to be replaced someday. You’re not going to be leading that group of people, organization, or company forever. It’s temporary. So don’t own it; instead, see it as something you are stewarding for a while. When you adopt that mindset, it puts you in a better state to treat people well, make the right decisions, avoid selfishness, think big picture, and build things the right way.

Sam Demma
As a leader, you have conversations with so many people every day, and you want to equip them to succeed, move things forward, and feel supported. Sometimes, naturally, you have difficult conversations. How do you approach those as a leader with the people you serve?

Brian Robson
Yeah, that’s another very good question. For me, it’s a lifelong journey. Leadership is a journey, for sure. I’ll be honest—by nature, I hate conflict. As a fifth-generation Canadian, I avoid conflict by instinct. So difficult conversations, the ones you just described, go against the grain of my personality. But you approach them with wisdom. Again, you do it from the perspective that you’re not defending your turf or trying to win a battle for the sake of winning. It’s about doing what’s best for the organization and the person you’re in conflict with. You approach these conversations with humility. It’s not about winning but about reaching a better place in the situation. Listening is crucial. My academic background has trained me to reason and connect the dots with facts. That’s my approach—stick to the facts. Avoid getting personal or emotional, and focus on reasoning through the situation. When you have a conflict, let the facts win. If I’m wrong, the facts will prove it. If the other person is wrong, the facts will show it. And ideally, both of us can come to a shared understanding based on the truth.

Sam Demma
That’s such a great perspective. I ask because I’ve noticed in myself, when I’m having challenging conversations, I sometimes feel the need to win or defend my turf. But I’m recognizing that and trying to improve. So, I really appreciate your insights. You’re clearly passionate about serving students. Although Ontario Tech has a smaller student population, I imagine that creates a lot of beautiful, intimate opportunities. Tell me a little about the school and why you love it so much.

Brian Robson
Yeah, so we talked a little bit off-air about this, but you’re familiar with Durham Region and how multicultural it is. The university reflects that diversity. We’re located in Oshawa, with two campuses: North Oshawa and downtown. It’s largely a commuter school, so most students live off-campus and commute to class. We do have some out-of-province and international students, but the majority are local—people from Durham, East GTA, or York Region. Our student body is incredibly diverse—culturally, academically, and religiously. We’re branded as a STEM university, but we also emphasize “Tech with a Conscience,” which reflects our focus on ethical and social responsibility in technology. As the student union, we serve everyone, meeting them where they are and supporting their unique needs and interests. That’s what makes this role so fulfilling.

Sam Demma
Before your time at Ontario Tech, you were at TMU. What was the difference in your roles of service at each of these universities?

Brian Robson
Very different. TMU is a larger school, also a commuter school, and similarly diverse with many first-generation students. I loved working with both TMU and Ontario Tech students because they’re trailblazers—grateful, hardworking, and not entitled. At TMU, I had various roles, but my focus was on programs for specific populations. These included skills-building and entrepreneurship programs for groups like newcomers, women, Black youth, and students aged 15 to 29. Some programs were federally funded, so we partnered with universities across Canada to deliver them nationally. Here at Ontario Tech, my role is more centralized, focused on serving the entire student body through the union. Both experiences are rewarding but very different in scope and focus.

Sam Demma
Have you always been passionate about entrepreneurship, business, and STEM, or is that just how your career unfolded?

Brian Robson
That’s just how the career unfolded. It wasn’t intentional, but it all fits under my personal mission of empowering emerging leaders. Entrepreneurs are leaders, so it aligned perfectly with my goal of shaping future leaders, even though it happened outside the classroom.

Sam Demma
What are you most excited about this academic year?

Brian Robson
We’ve had the largest first-year class in Ontario Tech’s history, which is exciting. Their energy and enthusiasm are infectious, and we want to build on that momentum. This is my first year seeing a class come in, and I’m looking forward to watching them grow and develop over the next four or five years. They’re the next leaders of the student union, and it’s exciting to be part of their journey.

Sam Demma
Education shapes humans and the future. The work you’re doing is so important. If someone listening wants to connect or ask a question, what’s the best way to reach you?

Brian Robson
LinkedIn is probably the best place to start. I included my LinkedIn profile in the bio I sent you. From there, I’m happy to share my email and connect further.

Sam Demma
Brian, my Oshawa homie, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences, insights on leadership, and passion for education. I hope this academic year is one of the best yet. Keep up the great work, and I’ll talk to you soon.

Brian Robson
Thank you so much for having me, Sam. This has been great—I’ve really enjoyed it. Keep it going!

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Brian Robson

November 19, 2024 by Sam Demma Education School Administration Student Leadership Student Success 0

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