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Mental Health

Stacy Hovey – Vice-Principal at Holy Trinity Catholic High School

Stacy Hovey – Vice-Principal at Holy Trinity Catholic High School
About Stacy Hovey

Stacy Hovey is a Vice-Principal at Holy Trinity Catholic High School. She is a proud receipt of the Sovereign’s Medal for Volunteers awarded by the Governor General of Canada. Stacy lives out the life she believes in by prioritizing servitude. She began her teaching career in 2005 with the Ottawa Catholic School Board. In addition to her role as Teacher, Department Head and Vice-Principal, Stacy has written Curriculum for the Ministry of Education and has taught at the University of Ottawa in the Faculty of Education.

Stacy believes that all schools must support students to grow into the best versions of themselves. She stresses the importance of demonstrating authentic care and respect for everyone. As a leader in her school, Stacy emphasizes the importance of ensuring all staff members feel welcome, heard, valued and truly appreciated. In order for our educators to take excellent care of our students, Stacy believes we need to take excellent care of our educators.

Connect with Stacy: Email | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Holy Trinity Catholic High School

Ottawa Catholic School Board

Sovereign’s Medal for Volunteers

University of Ottawa Faculty of Education

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam, and today I’m joined by a very special guest tuning in from Ottawa. Stacy Hovey is a vice principal with the Ottawa Catholic School Board. We met, I want to say, about a year ago now in the spring, and I’m so excited to have her on the show. She is a vice principal at Holy Trinity Catholic High School.

Sam Demma
Stacy, thank you so much for being here.

Stacy Hovey
Thanks for having me, Sam.

Sam Demma
Did you know when you were growing up that you wanted to work in education? I absolutely did not.

Stacy Hovey
When I was growing up, I wanted to have a job that made me as much money as I could possibly get my hands on. And then I realized when I got into that job that it wasn’t for me. And I quickly decided that money wasn’t going to be the end all be all. And I knew in my heart that I’d always loved the idea of working with kids and teaching young minds and molding young minds. So I took that path instead. And it has made me the most blessed and the most rich in ways that money could never buy.

Sam Demma
I had a mentor once tell me, money solves money problems, but those are the only problems it solves. And oftentimes in our search for meaning in life, we think that material possessions or status or money is going to fulfill us. And it couldn’t be further from the truth. Did you have someone in your life redirect you or was it a realization you had yourself when you started down that pathway?

Stacy Hovey
To be completely honest, I was redirected by God. I know that might sound a bit strange, but it was July the 4th, my birthday. I was in the United States celebrating because I’m clearly Miss America, and they already have a party there, so why not go? My mom brought me down, and we went to the Basilica, and while we were there, one of the statues, yeah, statues, winked at me. And I know statues don’t wink. And I thought I’d lost my mind. My mom thought I had heat stroke. I didn’t think much of it other than I’m clearly going crazy. My mom took down the name of the saint, which I didn’t. And when we came back home to Ottawa, my mother came running down the stairs one day with a piece of paper in her hand, and I thought she’d gone mad. But she said, Stacy, Stacy, you’re never gonna believe this. I said, what? She said, it’s the patron saint of teaching. I said, who’s the patron saint of teaching? What are you talking about? She said, the saint that winked at you when we were at the Basilica in New York. It’s the patron saint of teaching, Stacy. And I thought, oh my God, that is exactly what I, that’s what I gotta do. So I had a God moment.

Sam Demma
I just got goosebumps. Thank you for sharing that with me and with everyone who’s tuning in. I think when we’re open to guidance is when we receive it. So you must have been at a time period in your life where you were looking for a change or thinking about it or discerning it. And what a beautiful way to shift pathways and pivot.

Sam Demma
Did you always work in the Ottawa Catholic School Board? Tell me a little bit about your educational journey from that realization forward.

Stacy Hovey
So when I had that realization, I was in my undergrad and I was thinking how it’s going to be going into law. And it was when I worked at the law firm that I realized that law was not going to make me happy every day. And I knew that I needed a job that when I woke up in the morning and I came in, it was like Christmas for me. Christmas is my favorite time of year and I needed every day to feel good. I didn’t want to be one of those people who, you know, needed to call in sick or made a calendar that said I got to be off this day or that day or whatever. I just wanted to wake up every day and be happy and do something where I felt like I was really making a difference. And so, educationally, I made a shift and I went and pursued a bachelor in education. And I did all of that here in Ottawa, at the University of Ottawa. I’m a Gigi, go Gigi’s. And I started working with the OCSB about 20 years ago. I started as a teacher for 10 years. I was a department head of religious studies. And now I’ve been a vice principal for a decade.

Sam Demma
At what point in your educational journey did you also write curriculum for the Ministry of Education?

Stacy Hovey
Oh, I love that. That was a lot of fun. In the summertime, the Ministry of Education had contacted me because I was piloting some projects and courses here with the OCSB, with our First Nations and Uintah-Metis community, and they needed a huge revamp on all of our Aboriginal resources. And so I had the opportunity to go down to Toronto, and for a month I got to work there and write with an incredible team of people, elders, amazing, amazing people from really all around the nation and we were able to revive and revamp the curriculum so that students had real authentic experiences here in the classroom. And now, I mean, there has been such a shift. That started for me about 15 years ago and see the growth of that, to see land acknowledgements when I’m at a 67s game, for people to actually know what residential schools are. When I was teaching them, parents, kids were looking at me like, what are you talking about, Miss? That didn’t happen. You know, now it’s not just Orange Shirt Day, it’s we’re living a world where people are appreciating our culture, appreciating creation, and frankly, are going to take better care of it because it is on loan to us. This beautiful earth is on loan to us. We need to make sure that we do everything we can to treat it with the respect that it deserves so that it can be here and flourish for future generations.

Stacy Hovey
You know, little Sam’s in the future. We got to make sure that they’ve got everything that they need.

Sam Demma
Hey, I don’t know if you’re trying to encourage me to create some little Sam’s, but I’m not ready for that yet Stacy.

Sam Demma
But you’re right, you’re right. You’re no no Sam, then there’s me Sam.

Stacy Hovey
So I’m feeling like there’s got to be a little Sam coming along someday. I know you’re young but… When I was at the school it was so clear that everything you do is about supporting and serving the staff and students in the building and helping them reach their full potential and do their best job. What are some of the things you think have helped you create that culture in Holy Trinity School of Excellence and encouraging students and staff to do their best?

Stacy Hovey
Firstly, thank you. Thank you for saying that. That is an incredible compliment. And I have to tell you, servant leadership is the most important thing to me. I can’t, words don’t define how much it matters for me to be in a position of service to others. And you get that. I know you get that because looking at Be Someone’s Taco, chapter 11, action, serve others. And one of my favorite lines or phrases in your book on page 146, for all you readers who haven’t read this. You write. Some of the most meaningful experiences in life come from being of service to others. And we, Sam, could not be more like-minded in that capacity. I believe in a school community, you need to make sure that kids have everything they need. In order to do that, where do you need to start? You need to start with your educators, your front line. In order for my staff to be well, I need to make sure they’re well. I tell them all the time, and they would laugh if they were listening to this because they know exactly what I say. I say, you can’t pour from an empty cup, and if you don’t take care of your wellness, you are going to be forced to take care of your illness. So our job is to make sure that our teachers are in a position to help our students in every way. And their cups need to be full in order for them to do the best job that they can. So it’s a wraparound support.

Stacy Hovey
It’s a support like something as simple as, I walk by, someone’s not having the greatest day, so I do a U-turn, I go get them a coffee. I walk by, someone’s not having the greatest day, I take them the coffee and I kick them out of their classroom for 15 minutes so they can go for a walk. Like it’s simple things that you can do on a daily basis in a school to make sure your teachers feel heard, feel valued, feel appreciated. If you do that in a building, you’re creating a culture where everyone is going to do well.

Sam Demma
How do you ensure in your own life that your cup remains full so you can encourage others to do the same?

Stacy Hovey
My husband. That’s the first thing I think of. I could not do any of the things I do without my husband, Trevor Hudson. He is my rock. He is one of the greatest gifts God has ever given me. And I have absolutely no idea on this earth where I would be without him. He has given me two beautiful children and he is the one who makes sure I am able to do this work. And frankly, I wouldn’t even be here in the first place if it weren’t for my parents. My parents, Ron and Lena Villeneuve, let me tell you, they have taught me everything about how to simply be the best version of yourself, how to be a good person, how to treat others the way you want to be a servant leader. One quick story, my father, bless him. He said, you know, Stacy, how are things going at school? I said, well, we’re gonna be doing a food drive at the school I was working at the time.

Stacy Hovey
It was really low income, families were really in need. We wanted to create these beautiful Christmas baskets to help the family out. My family doesn’t come from a lot. We don’t have a lot in the financial department, so to speak. We’ve worked for everything that we’ve got and happy to say that and happy to do that. And one day I’m at work and the vice principal, he comes to get me and he says, there’s a food truck here and they’re here for you. I said, I’m sorry, what?

Stacy Hovey
And he says, it’s a food truck. I said, a food truck? He said, yeah, they’re unloading in the chapel. You need to come and see this. Food truck unloading in the chapel, what? So I make my way down and sure enough, there is a food truck unloading box upon box of fruits, apples, oranges, vegetables. And holy moly, it’s my dad. My dad went and talked to some local people, and his own money was able to arrange for a food truck to drop off all of these gifts for over 250 families.

Stacy Hovey
Who does that? It’s amazing that we live in a world where people like that make such a difference, but people like that are, oh my gosh, I forgot to turn off my walkie-talkie. I turned off everything, do not disturb.

Sam Demma
That’s okay, don’t worry.

Stacy Hovey
But I didn’t turn off this darn thing that tells me where to go and when there’s an emergency.

Sam Demma
They’re paging you to the front because there’s a food truck outside.

Stacy Hovey
Ha! Yeah, no, I wouldn’t put it past them, seriously. My dad’s just that kind of guy. So my parents have really been there for me all along and they fill my cup too. I would be, who takes my kids so that I can have a break, my mother. And then my husband takes me to the spa. So like they work together. That’s how I got space for both.

Sam Demma
Where did you get the passion for volunteerism? I know you were recently, you were awarded a medal for volunteerism from the government of Canada. Was that something that your parents instilled in you at a young age as well or something you discovered later in life?

Stacy Hovey
No, my daddy and my mommy, they would take me around, make sure whatever we needed to do was done. So, you know, food kitchens, making sure that people at Shepherds’ would hope here in Ottawa had what they need. My dad made sandwiches, like there was nobody’s business. He’s also like the best meatball maker in all of the world, so meatball sandwiches, but always helping out whoever didn’t have, you were to give. You just had to make sure that whoever was in need was taken care of. We never ever, my parents taught me, you never walk by a homeless person and don’t stop. You just don’t do it. Even you stop, you acknowledge them, you say hello. If you don’t have something in your pocket, that’s fine. You have kindness, you have a smile, you have time. You do what you can. You stop and do whatever you can do. So many times it would be bringing someone into McDonald’s or just talking to them or whatever. It was simple things. That’s how I was raised. And I continue that because for me, again, it’s that service. It’s living your life in a way that is wholesome.

Stacy Hovey
And so I started when I was very tiny, volunteering with a whole bunch of groups. I volunteered with Save the Children Canada, the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of the Child, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada, you name it, I was in it. Nursing homes, oh, I have some of my best memories from nursing homes. We have lots of people in the community who just don’t get visitors. And Luigi is one of my greatest friends. I used to go and dance with him, the tarantella. There was no music, but we still danced. And I’ll never forget him. I’ve got lots of people in my life who I have been blessed to learn from. Elizabeth Seward, 104 years old, didn’t have any family members. So I used to go and bring her to church on Sundays and read to her. Rest her heart, you know. These are people who are just people who just need other people.

Stacy Hovey
I tell people all the time, we’re all brothers and sisters, you know?

Sam Demma
I spent the six weeks in Kenya and there was a massive protest happening in downtown Nairobi and we were fortunate to have a local connection who said, hey, early morning, we’re gonna come pick you up and drive you two hours out of downtown into a rural village where I grew up. And I’m gonna introduce you to family members of mine and friends, aunts and uncles. And first thing he said, we’d never go to the village empty-handed. So he stopped at the grocery store, we picked up a bunch of groceries to bring to his family, and a few hours later we arrive and we’re going through all these different homes. Stacy, goosebumps in every single home we stopped in. Every elder, every parent, every uncle and aunt prayed for us, prayed with us in their homes. And it was Kamata, Kamata was our driver, it was his uncle who sat us down. He used to be a history teacher, but he’s now retired. And he said, Where do we come from? And we were all sitting there and he goes, Adam, right? Adam and who and he started like questioning us about the story of Adam and Eve. And he said, if that’s if that’s the truth, and as Catholics, we believe it to be so, then every single one of us is related. We’re all brothers and sisters. And so when you do walk past that person on the street, they’re not just the homeless person. They’re a member of your family. How do you treat a member of your family with respect and kindness and dignity? And so I think it’s such a beautiful story you’ve shared about your father and how your parents have instilled that value of volunteering and of service in you as a child. It reminded me of my grandfather while you were speaking and I was getting a little emotional myself just listening. It’s such a beautiful story and it’s beautiful that you’ve carried that energy into the work you’re doing in education.

Sam Demma
What do you think are some of the things that students need now more than ever? There’s a lot of challenges in the world and there’s so much noise. Students are struggling. What do you think they need these days?

Stacy Hovey
Simple acceptance, non-judgment, and unconditional love. It’s our bad. We’re not born bad. Sometimes you got a kid, I’m the vice principal and up in my office. They’re not a bad kid. They’ve made a bad choice, it doesn’t define them as bad. The decision they made, not so great. But them, great. They need to know that there are such things as second chances, third chances. They need to know that it’s okay to not be okay. They need to know why whatever they did wasn’t right. You need to explain that to them. Walk them through it. Teach them. In a school, we don’t just teach curriculum. We teach character. We teach kids how to be and how to live and how to participate in this world. And so, for me, I say to even parents, they’re so upset, they’re so angry, they can’t believe that their child has done A, B, C, or D. And then the child leaves. And my advice to them is, go home and hug them. Love them. Yes, they might have done something that you’re not proud of. I get it. However, they will always be your son. They will always be your daughter. You are going to need to give them that love.

Stacy Hovey
And I feel like, oh my gosh, Thomas Groom said once upon a time, parents have become so open-minded, their brains have fallen out. I don’t necessarily believe that to be true all the time, but sometimes I get it. And so the reminder to me and my reminder to parents is they’re always going to be your baby. How are you gonna treat your baby? Right? So for me, loving them no matter what, no matter what they’ve done, the good, the bad, the ugly, and making sure they know it. So they don’t go to bed feeling shame and guilt every day. It’s huge, huge.

Sam Demma
I couldn’t agree more. I think even reminding ourselves to give that love to ourselves, because so often we’re our own toughest critic. And I beat myself up sometimes and I had a mentor, he said, Sam, hold your hand over your heart, like feel the heartbeat a few times, give that person love. I was like, it sounded silly, but in moments where things are falling apart or I can’t control certain circumstances and I’m allowing myself to feel certain emotions because of that, I think about those words and his suggestion and it brings me a lot of peace. And I get so many messages from students, and not only students, also staff members that are feeling challenged or burnt out, and they just don’t know the first step to take to, I guess, bring themselves back to a place of self-love and compassion. And I’m curious, have you had any periods in your own career where you felt challenged or a little bit burnt out? And in those moments, how do you, like, how did you get out of them?

Stacy Hovey
Oh gosh, absolutely, 100%. Like I said, it’s okay to not be okay. And to be honest with you, this last few weeks have been probably the most challenging of my career. One of our students was taken from us in a violent act that’s being investigated by the police. And one of our former students, and I am wearing blue today in his honour, his funeral and services are happening tomorrow. And when you lose a student, especially through tragedy in a capacity that no student should ever be lost, person should ever be lost, senselessness, it’s very, very difficult. And so, as a community of grievers, you know, we have so much support. Our school board made sure the troops were here to support the students, support the staff. And for me, part of that is just leading by example. We created a document to make sure every kid who needed to speak to a counselor had the opportunity to do so. And then I said to the counselors, I said, once all the kids have been seen, I’m gonna write in this document, staff, and I’m putting my name. And I did. There’s the school bell.

Stacy Hovey
And I did that not only because I actually needed the support, because I do, and I did, but I also did that because I wanted people to know, if they saw the document and they saw my name, it’s okay for Stacy to get help, it’s okay for me to put my name down and for me to get help too. The kids first, of course, but then us. Because really, truly, we at that front line need that help. So I would say taking care of your wellness is huge. You have to find what works for you. For me, reading works, walking works. Sometimes walking turns into jogging, not too far though. 5k is like my maximum capacity. Cooking for me is a thing. I find therapeutic. My husband knows when I am like in a mood or a situation when all of a sudden there’s a whole bunch of things coming out of the oven or on the stove at the same time. I think you just have to find your thing. But I also think you need to know that if you need support that is beyond somebody you love and care for, that is professional support, you should not feel shame or guilt in getting that. We need to have people that we can talk to and that’s what those people are for. And I cannot imagine how anyone could go through this life without needing some sort of support. And believe me, that is me included.

Stacy Hovey
Amen.

Sam Demma
I say it all the time, courage is not carrying the challenges alone. Courage is reaching out for the support when you need it most. And there’s been so many moments in my life where if I didn’t reach out for the support, I wouldn’t have been in a good space. I wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have known how much other people love and care about me at times, you know? And I think it was a realization I had partway through the start of my own career because I had a coach for three years and COVID hit and things fell apart and I called him bawling my eyes out. And something he did that was so beautiful too is he didn’t try and solve my problem, he just stayed on the phone for like 40 minutes and I was talking the whole time. And only until the end of the call was I like, hey, can you help me with this? Or what are your thoughts? And I thought what a beautiful lesson he taught me that day, most of the time people would just need a shoulder to lean on or an ear to listen. They’re not, you know, sometimes even looking for a solution. And I think that’s so beautiful.

Sam Demma
And I’m so sorry to hear about the loss in the community. That’s absolute tragedy. And I hope everyone finds peace in the situation however they can. I’ll be keeping the community in my prayers. And I’m so inspired by you and this conversation. If there’s another educator who’s listening to this and wants to reach out to you or get the meatball sandwich recipe, what would be the best way for them to get in touch?

Stacy Hovey
The only social media I have literally is Twitter. So I have an email account, of course, but Twitter would be the best way. So it’s @sthovey. And I would be more than happy to pass out my dad’s meatball recipe or talk or do whatever anybody needs. I’m all about filling the cup as much as possible. And honestly, Sam, it’s been my pleasure. You really are absolutely incredible. From the second you walked into this school with that backpack that was unbelievably ginormous, and taking the time to empty it and remind me. You know, there are so many places in your book that, you know, I found myself stopping and very literally tagging pages because there were things that I thought, wow, does that ever connect with me? So I feel like you’re going to be one of those people, A, anybody who meets you, they’re never going to forget you, ever. And B, it’s people like you who are going to make our world what we really want it to be, a world filled with service.

Sam Demma
I receive that. Thank you so much. I can’t express my gratitude enough for you taking the time for this conversation, for the work you’re doing. I look forward to crossing paths again soon. And until then, keep up the amazing work, keep filling people’s cups and bringing them coffees when they need it. Keep leading with your heart and I’ll see you soon, my friend.

Stacy Hovey
Absolutely will.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Stacy Hovey

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
About Carman Murray

Carman Murray is on a mission to empower teachers and educators to prioritize their well-being, both inside and outside the classroom. With over 20 years of experience, Carman transitioned from classroom teaching to mentoring and supporting others on their healing journeys. Her passion lies in helping educators cultivate healthy habits that transform feelings of overwhelm into renewed energy and fulfillment.

Carman’s workshops blend both the professional aspects of teaching and personal development, offering a holistic approach to educator growth. As a dynamic and authentic speaker, she delivers engaging workshops and talks that inspire educators to rekindle their life balance. Beyond her work with teachers, she volunteers at Rockyview Leadership Academy and contributes to the Canadian Student Leadership Association’s events. Carman is also the author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout, a resource dedicated to supporting educators in their journey toward wellness.

Connect with Carman: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

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Resources Mentioned

Canadian Student Leadership Association (CSLA)

Rockyview Leadership Academy

Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Healthy Teachers

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam, and today we are joined by a very special guest. We have crossed paths multiple times and I’m so honored to have her on the show here today. Carman Murray. Carman, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you.

Carman Murray
Sam. I’m so excited that our paths have crossed in the past more than once and that I could be here with you today. You are…

Sam Demma
…doing so much amazing work across Canada, supporting educators and teachers and all human beings with their wellbeing. And you have a passion for education because you’ve spent over 20 years of experience in the education industry. You’re speaking at events in Kelowna upcoming, you have a book. Just tell everyone tuning in a little bit more about who you are and why you’re passionate about supporting the wellbeing of others.

Carman Murray
Thanks so much, Sam. So I love supporting other people with their health and wellness. I recovered myself from burnout. I taught for 15 years and hit a wall and decided I didn’t want to do it anymore and my body actually wouldn’t let me do it. And I actually was inspired at an Alberta Student Leadership Conference by Orlando Bowen when he talked about, and you might have been at that one, I can’t remember, he talked about letting people know there was a different way. So I really want to let teachers know that they do not need to stay in that rut of being burned out and doing everything for their students and doing everything for their classrooms and just putting themselves on the back burner until it’s too late. Because there’s so many amazing things we can do in our classrooms with our students and do them ourselves, and we don’t have to wait until we’re finished teaching, we can live a life alongside our teaching career.

Sam Demma
You mentioned you hit a wall of burnout, and I would imagine there are some educators listening to this right now who may be feeling the same way. How did you navigate that time in your life, and what were some of the things you did to improve or get out of that situation?

Carman Murray
Well, I maybe shouldn’t say this out loud. I left the teaching profession.

Sam Demma
Okay. This is not an advertisement.

Carman Murray
No, this is not an advertisement because I know like there’s so many teachers out there that are so passionate about what they do and they’re so good at it and they have such an impact on students’ lives. And what I would say to teachers that are feeling that they might be on the road to burnout, or just in general exhaustion, because that seems to hit before the burnout happens, is start doing things just for yourself. Hang out with people who are starting to have a different mindset than just students, school, all of the things you have to do. There is this balance which looks not balanced. It’s not this equal balanced scale. It’s like, how do we find the time to do some great things for ourselves and really set school aside?

Carman Murray
And then I feel like the other part of the equation, Sam, is how do we bring some of those things into our classroom? How do we take 10 breaths with our students each time they walk in our classrooms and sit in our desks so that it calms their nervous systems as well as ours? How do we take our students outside for five minutes a couple of times a day that aren’t recess, where they can just have some downtime because we live in such a fast-paced world? And you, I’m sure, have experienced this with all your speaking and everything that you’ve got on the go. How do we actually give the kids permission to slow down rather than trying to speed them up all the time? Because I really feel like we’re pumping out into our world anxious, overwhelmed students who might not have all the tools they need to function. And that comes from our classrooms and their own environment. I don’t want to just say it’s just the classrooms, but how can we combat that as teachers to give them those tools to calm their nervous systems down in the classroom so they can access their prefrontal cortex?

Sam Demma
Why did you take this knowledge and put it into the book? At what point did you say, like I feel this urge to write and to publish? Tell me more about that book and what an accomplishment.

Carman Murray
Well, I was not the kid that dreamed I was gonna write a book since I was 10. I had a thought, I’m like, oh, maybe I should write a book. And then I started hanging out with a few people who had written books. And then I actually, I joined a publisher with a coaching program and just started to write. To be honest, the writing part was the easiest part of it, the marketing part is way harder. You probably know that, may or may not have been your experience. But I really wanted teachers to know that they’re not alone. Because sometimes in our classrooms, we feel like we’re all by ourselves and we’re the only one that has experienced the exhaustion and the overwhelm that’s going on. Then there are things that you can do that don’t require a bunch of extra time. You’re already doing lots of them, you just need to slightly tweak them and tweak your mindset because I always used to feel that I was never doing enough. And that was something that was going on in my mind. Now I’m like this is what I’m doing and it’s great and it is enough. And so as soon as I switched my mindset and it’s really easy to say it’s so much harder to do, I don’t want you to think this is a magic pill, but to start to shift that mind of, I am doing enough, my students are doing well, and this is how I’m helping them rather than feeling like we’re always behind.

Sam Demma
You mentioned the thing you did that helped when you were really burnt out was take a step away. For the educator listening who’s feeling a little bit burnt out and maybe is not having the most positive mindset right now, but knows that like, I’m not, like, I’m not leaving. I don’t want to, I don’t want to leave. What would you advise them to think about or start shifting and changing to rebuild a positive relationship with their workplace?

Carman Murray
That’s such a great question. And there’s a few avenues you can go. So I feel like, so I mentioned this to you when we were talking before we started recording, is I do run a group for teachers and I do coaching on health and wellness as well as classroom dynamics. And so finding yourself a group like that, reaching out to me, is one place to start. Sometimes, though, we need to take time off. Like there needs to be a time away so we can actually fully recover from whatever it is we’re recovering because I feel like there’s so much more than just what goes on in the classroom. We as humans have a life outside. We have all of our own experiences that we’ve collected, and we might be dealing with some of our own trauma and unresolved issues that are being triggered in the classroom. So I feel like if teachers can kind of start to become aware of what’s going on with them, and doing some things like, like where’s your sleep at, would be another question I would ask is, where’s your sleep at and what’s going on in your nervous system? Are you able to respond to things like pause and kind of assess the situation or are you like reacting right out of the gate?

Sam Demma
The group you mentioned, is it for educators or is it open to any stressed and overwhelmed human beings? I know a few people that might not be teachers.

Carman Murray
That is a great question. So it’s open to everybody, actually. I kind of have half and half. I have half educators, and then I’ve got some people who are retired educators, and some people who are not educators at all. Because, like you mentioned, our world causes us a little bit of stress and a little bit of overwhelm. So it’s a place for anybody to land. I do have a particular component of it that is just for teachers, where we meet two or three times a month and we land and we troubleshoot teacher issues and then there’s other components to it where we work on our health and wellness and our mindset and other life challenges that show up.

Sam Demma
Let’s say a teacher is burnt out, they are returning to work after taking a little bit of time off to rebuild that relationship with themselves, improve their sleep. What boundaries do they need to put in place when they start at work again to ensure it doesn’t snowball the way it did the last time?

Carman Murray
Yeah, great. So I would say, so boundaries that teachers can set are, what do they have to offer? Like, what is your time at school? What’s your capacity and who’s your team? That’s another big one. I’m really advocating right now for teachers to use your classroom as a team. You don’t have to do everything. Have your students do their stuff. There are so many things that students can do that teachers just automatically do. And I believe we’re actually taking away life skills from students by doing everything for them.

Sam Demma
And, oh, I had another one.

Sam Demma
That’s a great one, though. I’m thinking about it right now, and I think it’s very similar in parenting. It’s like, let the student, let the young person fall in their hands a few times, let them get involved, let them get their hands dirty because it’s gonna help them build their character as well.

Carman Murray
Absolutely, and it also, like when we talk about boundaries, we also need to look at where are we over giving? Because if we only have, like if we only have 10 units of energy a day and we give away 14 or we use up 14 every day, we leave ourselves at a deficit. So who are the people in your own home that can help you keep things on track, right? It’s like, I had a discussion yesterday with annoyance about my son who left his stuff everywhere and he’s almost 19. And so do I pick it up, like, right? Do I pick it up and just do it myself because that’s easier or do I give him a little bit of flack and go, okay, buddy, deal with your stuff because he’s old enough to, and all of those things. So boundaries, boundaries are huge. And I think even those of us who aren’t teachers or those of you that are listening that aren’t teachers can also struggle with boundaries. What are you saying yes to? What are you saying no to? And I think more importantly, what are you saying yes to that you don’t really want to?

Sam Demma
It’s almost thinking like an entrepreneur and delegating the things in your life that are not bringing you joy happiness and fulfillment but still need to get done. What are some of the things that you think are top of the list hanging fruits that an educator or a teacher may think about letting go control over and delegating to a student or a colleague or another team member that might lighten the load a little bit?

Carman Murray
So back to having the kids involved. Yeah. Students, right? If you’re in a room full of 30 bodies, one of them is going to think that writing on the whiteboard is the best thing ever. And the other one doesn’t want to touch anything to do with it. Right? One of them is going to be super excited about organizing the bookshelves, the other one’s not going to touch it with a 10-foot pole. So I would say really talk to your people, like talk to your students. What is it that they want to do? How do they want to help? And I even believe that with like project planning. When I taught, I loved planning projects with my kids. In fact, one of the times we planned a project with my parents, one was a pilot for a private jet company, and we got to go to the hangar and sit in. Oh my. Right? There’s so many resources out there that are available. So how can we tap into that team and delegate to our students based on their interests as well as teaching them that there’s some things that you don’t really want to do that you still have to do in life, right? Somebody needs to empty the garbage. And then the piece of delegation, I also think that often schools are wanting teachers to do more, especially I live in rural Alberta and so there’s not a lot of teachers in my kids’ school, so there’s only enough teachers to go so far. So where are you accessing community involvement? And when teachers say no to things so they’re not over capacity enough times, then they have to start looking somewhere else. And if teachers are always saying yes and they don’t have the space or capacity to do it, then they’re like, oh, we’ve got the expertise in their building, right? Sam said he would do that. Sam said he would do this. Sam said he would run the lunch club and the library club and the game club when Sam really doesn’t have time to do all that. So where can they find other resources? And most places have resources in their cages.

Sam Demma
That’s such a great idea. I’m even thinking, what if at the start of a fresh semester or a new group of students, you wrote down on the whiteboard all of the things that have to be done in the classroom that are repeatable tasks that are typically done by the teacher themselves, which could be given as a responsibility and a growth opportunity to one student each in the classroom. And it’s like an auction, you go down the list and it’s like an honor to do the tasks. And people bid on it with their excitement. And maybe a few of them are assigned because no one may want certain tasks, but I think, I think there’s something there, like auctioning off, auctioning off classroom tasks to your students.

Carman Murray
Well, and I love that, because I love the auction part of it and I’m going to take it one step back, is brainstorm that list with your students. Yeah. Those things that they’re going to think of that you don’t think of.

Sam Demma
I love that, that’s such a powerful idea. What do you think are some of the, I’m going to shift gears for a moment, in regard to building relationships with students, we talked a little bit about classroom management, but what do you think are some of the best practices to build stronger relationships with young people as a teacher?

Carman Murray
That’s a really great question, because when you look at classes that have 46 kids in them, that’s a lot of kids, and you probably have four classes like that. For me, and this is my disclaimer, I’ve always taught in rural schools and I went to a rural school, is like when I taught, I knew all 325 kids in the building because we were a K-12 school. But there’s components of what are those kids good at? What conversations can you have with them that aren’t just about their assignments and what’s late or what’s not late? And what good questions do you ask them? It’s just like, how’s your day? What’s their response? And then is there more to read into that response? And I also feel like there’s opportunities within your classroom to find that information out. I volunteer with the Rocky View Leadership Academy and work with leadership kids and they’re phenomenal. And I love the experience. And we’ll often, we usually start in a circle with 30 to 60 kids and do a one word check-in. And so each kid goes around, they’re like exhausted, excited, tired, overwhelmed, you know, all the things that they come up with take less than three minutes. And it gives me as a volunteer, as well as the lady who runs, the idea of where the kids are all at, and it gives the people around them an idea of where they’re at. I also feel like you can give assignments that give students the opportunity to express where they’re really at. And real conversations. I loved doing assessment with students. I know it takes a little bit longer, but it really allows me, per se, in their head as to, you know, if I was going to give you a, this is a bit of an old scale, but if I was to give you a mark out of 10, what would you choose that mark to be? And they might choose like a six out of 10. And you’re looking at it going, I think maybe that’s more like an eight out of 10. It’s like, okay, why would you give it a six? And then they kind of unpack what goes on in their brain about their own learning and why they did certain things. So it gives you an idea. So those are some of the things that I’ve done and I would do in a class to support kids in getting them to know each other. Getting to know them as a teacher, but also getting them to know each other. Because I think that in a class of 46, you want your students to have more touch points than just you.

Sam Demma
On that idea of getting to know each other, phenomenal ideas around building relationships with the students. How do you think that you build relationships with your colleagues as an educator and a teacher as well? I find that sometimes classrooms can become these little silos in a bigger school building, where people aren’t collaborating as much as they could benefit from doing so. How did you build those relationships and leverage other educators when you were also a teacher?

Carman Murray
So we used to have a meeting once a week with, there was, I taught grade six and there was a grade five teacher and a grade four teacher. And we would meet the three of us once a week at lunchtime. And lots of times it was on the fly, and sometimes somebody couldn’t make it, or somebody showed up 10 minutes later or whatever. And we sat in a different room and just kind of like we had a bit of an agenda, different conversations we were having about what was maybe working, what wasn’t working, what projects are we working, how can we support each other, so that we know we’re not alone in that building, and we can rely on each other for two-minute conversations or 20-minute lunches so that you can get to know each other is one of the ways. And the other thing that I also did, and sometimes I got funny looks for it, is we know that sometimes a staff room is a place that can be challenging to be in, because sometimes it’s a negative zone or whatever it is. And I would sit at a table where people were having a conversation about other students or not staff members, but often students, and it would be like, I’d sit down and be like, oh, what was something you did that was cool today? And bringing the focus back to that actual person rather than them talking about students, because we know what happens. We know there is a need for a place to vent about them, but it’s just like, how do we use that staff room to build relationships with other staff. And I got odd looks all the time, and I’m okay with that. But I also am not okay to sit in a staff room where there’s a table that’s loud that’s talking about students, and not necessarily in a great way.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I also feel that it’s so important that you put a little bit of a protection around your energy, not only as an educator, but in any field, and recognizing that if those types of conversations make you feel less than and make you feel burnt out, then there’s no need to participate in them, right?

Carman Murray
I think there’s, yes, the part of don’t participate in them, but then I feel like for me, anyways, there’s a responsibility. Shut it down. Yeah, so it’s like, let’s talk about something else. Or what’s something cool that kid has going on? Or like just to start to redirect the conversation, which is so powerful because kids struggle enough. We don’t, right? We all, and I don’t say we all struggle enough. It’s helpful not to be talking about other people. And I think if you’re listening to this and you are like, oh, I’m that person, just start different conversations.

Sam Demma
I’m sure there’s multiple people listening to this right now thinking, this Carman Murray lady is speaking my language and I want to read her book and I want to hear more about her group. So can you tell us how people can connect with you, get in touch about the group, and check out the book as well?

Carman Murray
Yeah, absolutely. So my book is called Teachers First, a guide to avoiding and overcoming burnout in the classroom. It’s available on Amazon and it’s also available in Chapters. And my website is www.healthyteachers.ca. And my group, if you’re interested in my group or even having a conversation with me, there’s a chat with me button on my website. Just click on that and book a time and we can chat and see where you’re at and see if I can help you or support you or if we’re a fit. Because sometimes we’re not and sometimes we are. Absolutely no pressure in having a conversation and just getting connected. I also am on Instagram.

Sam Demma
Nice.

Carman Murray
And Facebook and LinkedIn.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for investing the time to share some of your insights on the show. I hope you continue to spread this message as far and wide as you possibly can. Keep up the great work and we’ll talk again soon.

Carman Murray
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Sam, and you as well. You’re doing amazing things in this world and creating a great ripple effect.

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The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.