About Richard Primrose
Richard is an educator, school administrator, coach, athlete and father. He has been the Assistant Director at Senior School at St. Michaels University School for seven years, and has also worked as the Head of Physical Education and Acting Senior School Director. His professional interests include creating a positive school culture and student leadership development, and in his personal time he is a runner, a traveler, and is the father of two young boys.
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Resources Mentioned
St. Michaels University School
The Transcript
**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.
Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam Demma. And today we are joined by Richard Primrose. You can’t see this because you’re listening virtually or in your ears. But Richard is currently wearing a Christmas hat with lights all across it because in a few hours is going to be a very exciting event happening at St. Mary’s University School in Victoria, BC, where Richard works. Richard is a runner, a father of two, a culture fanatic for amazing experiences for young people in school buildings. Richard, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
Richard Primrose
Yeah, thanks for having me, Sam. I’m really excited. One small correction, the St. Michael’s University School.
Sam Demma
Oh, what am I saying? St. Michael’s University School. That’s a big correction. I appreciate it. And I actually love humanizing folks on the podcast, so I keep mistakes like that in the actual interviews as a way to just remind people that we all make little errors, and I think that’s what makes us more human. Thank you for that correction, and please tell us a little bit about yourself and what actually got you working in education in the first place.
Richard Primrose
Yeah, so my role at my school is assistant director of the senior school responsible for student life and leadership. So the student life aspect, I guess the most important thing I do at the school is creating a positive, safe environment
Richard Primrose
where students can come to school and feel safe and learn and feel like they belong and feel included. So that’s the important scope of my work. And then that involves, you know, all the things that a traditional vice principal, I guess you would say, would do,
Richard Primrose
ranging from all the conversations around discipline, because students do make bad choices, and the important thing is how they learn from them. And then the other end of that spectrum is the leadership, and that’s where a lot of the joy in this work comes, is supporting our student leaders
Richard Primrose
in making all the wonderful, awesome things that happen at the school come to fruition. And I really intentionally talk about supporting student leaders because at my school, one thing our leadership program really values is enabling students to act and giving students the support
Richard Primrose
and the resources and skills to actually get out there and do the real work. So a lot of the stuff you see happening at the school is almost entirely student-led with teachers in the background supporting them and coaching them. And it’s interesting, you talked about including that small error in the podcast. That’s part of our ethos at the school is that these things are not going to be perfect
Richard Primrose
and students are going to, along the way, make mistakes in their leadership and learn from them. So sometimes the events they put out are not 100% polished and necessarily world-class, but the real learning is in the students when they are in action and making small mistakes and getting better from those so that’s a part of our philosophy as well. Is there a reason
Sam Demma
you’re working in education today? Did you know when you were growing up that you would be serving young people?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, that’s a great question. My mom taught kindergarten and grade one. So from an early age, I was exposed to schools and she was a wonderful, beloved teacher. So I think that always planted a seed. Education runs deep in my family.
Richard Primrose
My grandma was a preschool teacher and I have other family members in education as administrators as well. So I suppose it’s in my blood in some ways and that seed was always planted. So at a young age, I suppose I could see myself doing it. And then I had my background growing up playing sports is just a huge part of my development.
Richard Primrose
As a younger kid, I played everything. And then as I got, you know, as a teenager, really focused on baseball and basketball. So a lot of seminal experiences there. And I think my background in sports sort of nudged me in the direction of education. I did go through a phase where I thought law school might be a good fit for me and kind of through university was I met up. But in the end, I did a physical education degree with a minor in geography. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to get into schools was to be involved in sports and be involved in coaching. And then as I got my job at St. Michael’s University School and I realized how much
Richard Primrose
I enjoyed it, how much fulfillment there is and how much purpose there is in education, I began to realize that this really is where I want to be. And my pathway has ranged from being a PE teacher, being a director of athletics for a year, and then kind of naturally led into administration when opportunities came up. So my job looks a lot different now, but it’s still working with kids, supporting kids as leaders.
Richard Primrose
So that’s sort of a bit of a rambling explanation as to how I got here. So I, yeah, I think the seed was always planted, but as I moved along in my education and sport career, I realized the place I wanted to be.
Sam Demma
And the role you’re in today allows you to work so closely with young people, despite the fact that you’re not sitting in their classroom. But the impact is massive. I was fortunate enough to visit the campus at St. Michael’s University School and meet many of the staff and the students who were all
Sam Demma
so kind and well-behaved and welcoming. These spaces are absolutely beautiful and also very inclusive. I felt like I was at home, despite the fact that I was pretty far away from home. So what do you think has contributed to that culture of belonging and kindness at school?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, that’s really great to hear, Sam. I appreciate that. It’s nice to hear that our students made you feel that way because that’s important to us. I think we’ve been very intentional about creating that kind of environment. Equity, diversity, and inclusion is a priority at our school and we’ve created a lot of language around that, that common language that we use. And right from the first day, our senior school students arrive on campus, they each are handed a little business card that’s got our equity, diversity, and inclusion statement on it. So right away, they’re seeing language around our beliefs surrounding creating a place where we feel like they belong and that we actually celebrate and embrace differences and diversity. So day one, they get the little card that’s got our statement on it, which was co-created with students, including our Pride Alliance. And then on the back of the card, there’s some resources that they can reach out to if they happen to be struggling with their mental health or with belonging. So I guess part of that is just when they get here, seeing the language, having people use it, and knowing right away that it’s one of our core values around belonging.
Sam Demma
The staff, I found, were also very welcoming and close-knit. I had a great experience with the lower school as well. I’m forgetting the individual’s name who was working with me at the time in this space, but everyone was so helpful and welcoming. And the educators themselves sometimes, in my experience, forget the impact they’re creating
Sam Demma
in the lives of young people. Maybe a student in their classroom doesn’t tell them until 10 years later when they graduate from the school and come back and let the teacher know. Or sometimes they never tell them, but the impact they’re creating is real. Do you have any words of advice or wisdom for an educator right now who’s heading into the holidays or starting the new year
Sam Demma
and is feeling a little bit burnt out, like they’re not making a difference?
Sam Demma
Yeah, have you ever felt like that before
Sam Demma
and what advice would you give them?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, you know, in education sometimes it feels like, I’ll use a bit of a training metaphor here, that we’re doing intervals. And, you know, we’re just coming out of a really intense interval here and now we’re about to get a break. So I think looking at it through that lens for educators taking your two or three weeks and really practicing self-care to recharge the batteries is important. So identifying the things that work for individuals to practice self-care. For me, it’s getting out for runs, it’s making sure I’m getting outside and moving. I love to run. I’m not necessarily very fast, but I get out there and do my best and it makes me feel good. It sharpens my thinking. It helps me manage my stress. So running and the other one is getting in the gym and throwing some weights around is good for me as well. But I think if people are looking at things that help them with their wellbeing, exercise has got to be one of them. And what else is it? You know, like, is it picking up a book and carving out time for yourself to read? And I like to read real old school paper books.
Richard Primrose
You know, that works for me getting off screens, but intentionally carving out that time. And then of course, spending time with family, friends, loved ones, Christmas is great for that. So I guess really it’s going into these holidays with a bit of intentionality to make sure you’re prioritizing the things that keep you well and make you feel good.
Sam Demma
Well, this is so important. Sometimes I neglect certain habits in my life. And when I return to them, it almost smacks me in the face like, oh my goodness, this is what I was missing this entire time because I was so focused on other things and work output that I forgot to pour into myself. And I think educators or any individuals who are in heart-centered work where you’re always trying to help and support others can sometimes fall into that trap as well. It sounds like running and exercise is one of those things for you. How do you balance the demands of work and also family? You know, you have two young kids.
Sam Demma
I’m sure they keep you busy. How do you manage the balance between everything?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, I mean, it’s a challenge. And to be honest, I probably would like to be spending more time doing my running and having workouts right now, but it’s just a matter of prioritizing and making sure you’re not finding yourself wasting too much time or procrastinating
Richard Primrose
and really trying to go in with a plan. And I talk to my my student leaders a lot about this being intentional, having a plan and then having some kind of system in place to to track that. So, again, with students, I talk a lot about how are you organizing yourself? Like, where are you making your notes? Where are you having your to do list and things of that nature.
Richard Primrose
So I think, obviously, leaders have to have some way of keeping track of their priorities. And if you can sort of weave in personal priorities as well and get that on your list of things to do, and even sometimes, if you can schedule things like that, schedule a workout, schedule a run,
Richard Primrose
schedule a coffee with a friend or a colleague, that can be a helpful way to make sure you’re including that in your healthy habits and routines. Because I think one thing is safe to say that everyone at some point in time slips out of their best, most positive routine and you have to reflect on how things are going and just make those small changes.
Richard Primrose
Sam, I know you’re big on small, consistent actions. And I think it’s a good thing to, when you’re reflecting on how things are going to go back to those small actions that help set you on the right track. You know, there’s a famous book, Atomic Habits, talks about habit stacking, right? So, if you can start off with small things, sometimes the big habits fall on top of that. People love to talk about the value of making your bed, for example, starting off the day
Richard Primrose
on a positive note and building upon that. I talked to our students at my school about wearing their uniform properly and how that starts the day off on a really positive note. You can check off something that you’ve accomplished, as small as putting on your uniform, and you can build upon that and it builds momentum.
Sam Demma
I had a soccer coach when I was 14, 15, 16, who would stop practice by blowing his whistle in the middle of a game if somebody’s shirt became untucked. And we wouldn’t know what was going on until everyone paused and looked down at their own shirts and one of my teammates would recognize, oh, his shirt fell out, so he’d tuck it back in
Sam Demma
and the game would continue. And this coach of mine had so many principles based around that nature. We would show up to practice and there was this long cobblestone pathway. If you walk the whole pathway,
Sam Demma
it would take you like two minutes to get to the field. If you just cut on the grass, it would take you like 15 seconds. So sometimes, you know, when I was first joining the team, I would naturally cut and I’d walk on the grass and maybe a few times my head coach didn’t notice, so he didn’t say anything, but there was one occasion where I guess you watched me walk along the grass instead of on the cobblestone path. And I got down to the field and I was shaking all the coach’s hand to say hello and he said, Sam, walk back up there and walk down the cobblestone path. And I laugh about it now, but in hindsight, I’m so grateful that I had those experiences because he really taught us that the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. And I think it’s important that we bring good intention to everything that we choose to do, especially when we’re young and we’re building our viewpoints and our perspectives of the world. So I think that’s such a valuable thing that you’re sharing with the students. Are there other principles or ideas that you often talk about with young people that maybe other educators can think about sharing with their students or their schools?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, well, first of all, I love that story. I love the idea as a sport, teaching life lessons, even small things like cutting corners. I talk about that with my rugby guys in training. Same thing, don’t cut small corners, right? I think the other theme that I’m really into these days is the idea that people, in particular students and teenagers, are anti-fragile. So the notion behind that is that not only are people resilient and able to overcome obstacles and challenges, the idea behind anti-fragility is that they actually need those obstacles and those challenges and some pressure and some stress to fully develop and to reach their full potential. And if we’re not experiencing those types of positive challenges, we’re not actually going to reach our full potential. So it’s the idea that people are anti-fragile and need those obstacles in life to overcome and learn from them and grow from them. So that’s like the next step, I think, from the idea of resilience.
Richard Primrose
And I think there, you know, sometimes we’re in a culture now where people tell a story to themselves that they are somewhat fragile, and I’m trying to push back a little bit on that and say that it’s okay to have experiences that stretch you, that push you, that are hard, and you’ll be better because of them and you need them.
Sam Demma
I think it’s such an important message. And the idea of challenges forming us is something that I resonate with because I had some major challenges in my life. And in hindsight, looking back, I wouldn’t change the challenges because they made me the person I am today. They also introduced me to so many other amazing human beings that I wouldn’t have met if I didn’t have
Sam Demma
that challenging experience. Can you think of challenges you’ve had in your life when you were a student or an educator or a parent that when you look back at, you say, wow, I really needed that in my life too because it changed my perspective or shifted something about the way I show up?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, when I have these types of conversations, I very often go back to my experiences playing sport when I was younger. So as a baseball player, so this is sort of when I’m, I guess, six years old to 15, baseball taught me so much about how to manage pressure and how to move beyond those types of things and be able to perform. And it taught me that I can do hard things. So I was a pitcher, so being up there, and as a pitcher, you’re controlling the game, you’re having to pitch strikes, everyone’s watching you. That was my first real bump in with pressure and stress. So that taught me what that feels like and that I was able to actually do it and do hard things. And now later on in my career, that transfers over to having to speak in big venues and things like that, that are still out of my comfort zone. But I often go back to those moments when I was pitching as a 13, 14, 15 year old and what that felt like, and then I was able to do that. So now I can do this. And then using another example from sport, I think about in high school basketball, I didn’t go to this school, I went to a different school. But I had two coaches with very, very different approaches and philosophies towards coaching. And I had one coach who really used fear as a motivator and I didn’t respond very well to that, but my other coach was much more focused on building relationships, being positive, caring about his players, also discipline as well. Like he was the tuck your shirt in type of guy, but I just responded so much better to the coach that really made the effort to build relationships and to serve his players and not lead with fear like the other coach. So that shaped me significantly in terms of how I approach
being an educator, being a leader and being a coach. I definitely move more towards being a relationship builder I think, or at least I try to be, and as much as I can being a servant leader.
Sam Demma
I can’t thank my coaches enough for the experiences they gave me in sports. I also had some absolutely phenomenal coaches who are foundational in my learning and growth and development, not only on the field, but also off the field as a human being.
Sam Demma
And I had some coaches whose style of leadership in some ways taught me what I don’t wanna do in terms of leading other human beings. And both were, I think both were valuable. You would talk about anti-fragility, this idea that we need challenges.
Sam Demma
I think one of the aspects of challenges a lot of people avoid these days are difficult conversations. You know, it’s hard to have certain conversations, but those are conversations that we need to have and they unlock so much opportunity and growth, personally, and within our relationships. You’re someone who has to have difficult conversations sometimes with students and also other staff members. How do you, how do you have a difficult conversation with someone that deep down you wish you didn’t have to have?
Richard Primrose
That’s a great question, Sam. I mean, I guess right from the outset, I’d say that they’re never going to be easy. They should challenge you and they shouldn’t feel natural, right? Those hard conversations.
Richard Primrose
But if I’m coaching students to have these conversations, it’s something I do myself is you have to be prepared. So the harder the conversation, the more time you should really think about exactly what you want to say, the points you want to make, even down to the point of if it’s a big one that you’re really feeling some trepidation about, getting someone who you trust who’s either a colleague or even a mentor and having a coaching type conversation with them before you even enter the conversation. One of the things that you can do entering a difficult conversation is you can really plan well how you want to open it and how you want to make the person feel as you start that conversation. And that’s important because if you make the person feel defensive or if you make them feel like they’re being attacked, that’s going to take the conversation down a path that is probably not going to lead to a positive outcome. So, you can control how you open up that conversation and make the other person feel. Now, where the conversation goes from there is where you have to be nimble and responsive. So, some of the advice I tend to give people as the conversations evolve is you have to really be focused on listening and trying to understand where the person is coming from when they are speaking.
Richard Primrose
Often, I think people go to a place of trying to think about their next move in the conversation or the next thing they’ll say, but really you have to move away from that as much as you can and try and be curious, ask open-ended, calibrating questions to the person and really find out where they’re coming from to try and get to a positive outcome as best you can. So those are a couple little tips I give my students when I’m working with them and coaching them on difficult conversations. The reality is very few people are masters of those conversations, and there are certainly tough ones that I have still, and often I will debrief after the conversation and can recognize things I would have done differently or things I said that maybe didn’t take it down the path that I wanted it to go. The key thing is preparation, going in really curious and asking questions, and reflecting and learning from those conversations as well. It does – it gets easier as you have experience with those conversations, but it never gets easy.
Sam Demma
It makes me think of the work of a stand-up comedian who prepares for their set, delivers it the best they possibly can, and then sits down with a blank piece of paper to rip apart how they said half of their jokes because they know they could do it better next time. And you do it over and over again. I’ve had a few difficult conversations in my life and it’s a skill that I’m continuously trying to improve. So I appreciate you sharing that information. I know that in a few hours here, you’re gonna be sitting in a student-led, student-created assembly. As you wrap up this conversation, do you wanna talk about that assembly very briefly and maybe some of the things you’re excited about into the new year?
Richard Primrose
Yeah, so this assembly is probably just the most fun, high-energy, crazy assembly we have at our school. So we have holiday dress all week long and kids are decked out in their tackiest Christmas sweaters today. There’s blinking lights everywhere,
Richard Primrose
Santa hats all over campus. And this is just a really fun one. Again, it’s going to be essentially emceed by our two head prefects. And they’re awesome. They’ve done a great job this year. But they run with it.
Richard Primrose
They’ve done the planning. And what you’ll see today is going to be, again, really fun, really engaging. It’s not going to be necessarily a polished professional level assembly, but it’s going to be great and you’re going to see the real work being done, like the authentic leadership in action from our students. So there’s lots of different student parts in the assembly.
Richard Primrose
Obviously we have students performing. And at our school, it’s a school tradition, we culminate with the 12 Days of Christmas song where each grade will sing one of the 12 days and for the grade 12s it’s almost a seminal moment in their career at SMU where they get to sing that 12th day Christmas and you’re going to see streamers flying and horns and drums, but what you actually see is pure joy from those grade 12s.
Richard Primrose
So it’s one of my favourite things we do at the school and I’m really excited about it. And in the new year, you know, well, I’m looking forward to more of that. Our grade 11 students are now thinking about What I kind of call our leadership season at the school. We have a whole program they go through in their grade 11 year building up to Applications to be leaders at the school whether that’s council heads Prefects which is our school leadership council or heads of houses for our boarders who live on campus and they will do an application, put their name forward, and ultimately, it’s students and faculty who vote on those positions. So it’s a democratic process that we have at our school. But for a lot of kids, they’re taking that courageous step right now to prepare their applications and put themselves out there and find out what that looks like.
Sam Demma
It sounds like an exciting time. I hope the assembly goes really well and the new year is off to an amazing start. Keep up the great work you’re doing, keep lacing up the running shoes when you have the time to do so and pushing those weights. And I hope to connect at some point in the new year. Richard, if someone is listening to this right now and they want to reach out or connect with you or have a conversation, what would be the best way for them to get in touch?
Richard Primrose
They can probably find me on our school website. That’s www.smus.ca and reach out that way. That’s probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. I’m always happy to engage in conversations around life at schools, leadership, anything I’ve talked about today.
Richard Primrose
So yeah, that’d be great. And thanks so much for having me, Sam. What a pleasure. You know, when you came to our school, the energy you brought was really incredible. So if anyone’s listening and thinking about bringing Sam in, he was great. So thanks so much for what you gave to our school community.
Sam Demma
I appreciate it. I’ll talk to you soon my friend. Keep up the good work.
Richard Primrose
Yeah, thank you Sam.
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