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Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
About Carman Murray

Carman Murray is on a mission to empower teachers and educators to prioritize their well-being, both inside and outside the classroom. With over 20 years of experience, Carman transitioned from classroom teaching to mentoring and supporting others on their healing journeys. Her passion lies in helping educators cultivate healthy habits that transform feelings of overwhelm into renewed energy and fulfillment.

Carman’s workshops blend both the professional aspects of teaching and personal development, offering a holistic approach to educator growth. As a dynamic and authentic speaker, she delivers engaging workshops and talks that inspire educators to rekindle their life balance. Beyond her work with teachers, she volunteers at Rockyview Leadership Academy and contributes to the Canadian Student Leadership Association’s events. Carman is also the author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout, a resource dedicated to supporting educators in their journey toward wellness.

Connect with Carman: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

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Artwork for Carman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
THE HIGH PERFORMING EDUCATOR PODCASTCarman Murray — Educator, Speaker and Author of Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout
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Resources Mentioned

Canadian Student Leadership Association (CSLA)

Rockyview Leadership Academy

Teachers First: A Guide to Avoiding and Overcoming Burnout

Healthy Teachers

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host, Sam, and today we are joined by a very special guest. We have crossed paths multiple times and I’m so honored to have her on the show here today. Carman Murray. Carman, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you.

Carman Murray
Sam. I’m so excited that our paths have crossed in the past more than once and that I could be here with you today. You are…

Sam Demma
…doing so much amazing work across Canada, supporting educators and teachers and all human beings with their wellbeing. And you have a passion for education because you’ve spent over 20 years of experience in the education industry. You’re speaking at events in Kelowna upcoming, you have a book. Just tell everyone tuning in a little bit more about who you are and why you’re passionate about supporting the wellbeing of others.

Carman Murray
Thanks so much, Sam. So I love supporting other people with their health and wellness. I recovered myself from burnout. I taught for 15 years and hit a wall and decided I didn’t want to do it anymore and my body actually wouldn’t let me do it. And I actually was inspired at an Alberta Student Leadership Conference by Orlando Bowen when he talked about, and you might have been at that one, I can’t remember, he talked about letting people know there was a different way. So I really want to let teachers know that they do not need to stay in that rut of being burned out and doing everything for their students and doing everything for their classrooms and just putting themselves on the back burner until it’s too late. Because there’s so many amazing things we can do in our classrooms with our students and do them ourselves, and we don’t have to wait until we’re finished teaching, we can live a life alongside our teaching career.

Sam Demma
You mentioned you hit a wall of burnout, and I would imagine there are some educators listening to this right now who may be feeling the same way. How did you navigate that time in your life, and what were some of the things you did to improve or get out of that situation?

Carman Murray
Well, I maybe shouldn’t say this out loud. I left the teaching profession.

Sam Demma
Okay. This is not an advertisement.

Carman Murray
No, this is not an advertisement because I know like there’s so many teachers out there that are so passionate about what they do and they’re so good at it and they have such an impact on students’ lives. And what I would say to teachers that are feeling that they might be on the road to burnout, or just in general exhaustion, because that seems to hit before the burnout happens, is start doing things just for yourself. Hang out with people who are starting to have a different mindset than just students, school, all of the things you have to do. There is this balance which looks not balanced. It’s not this equal balanced scale. It’s like, how do we find the time to do some great things for ourselves and really set school aside?

Carman Murray
And then I feel like the other part of the equation, Sam, is how do we bring some of those things into our classroom? How do we take 10 breaths with our students each time they walk in our classrooms and sit in our desks so that it calms their nervous systems as well as ours? How do we take our students outside for five minutes a couple of times a day that aren’t recess, where they can just have some downtime because we live in such a fast-paced world? And you, I’m sure, have experienced this with all your speaking and everything that you’ve got on the go. How do we actually give the kids permission to slow down rather than trying to speed them up all the time? Because I really feel like we’re pumping out into our world anxious, overwhelmed students who might not have all the tools they need to function. And that comes from our classrooms and their own environment. I don’t want to just say it’s just the classrooms, but how can we combat that as teachers to give them those tools to calm their nervous systems down in the classroom so they can access their prefrontal cortex?

Sam Demma
Why did you take this knowledge and put it into the book? At what point did you say, like I feel this urge to write and to publish? Tell me more about that book and what an accomplishment.

Carman Murray
Well, I was not the kid that dreamed I was gonna write a book since I was 10. I had a thought, I’m like, oh, maybe I should write a book. And then I started hanging out with a few people who had written books. And then I actually, I joined a publisher with a coaching program and just started to write. To be honest, the writing part was the easiest part of it, the marketing part is way harder. You probably know that, may or may not have been your experience. But I really wanted teachers to know that they’re not alone. Because sometimes in our classrooms, we feel like we’re all by ourselves and we’re the only one that has experienced the exhaustion and the overwhelm that’s going on. Then there are things that you can do that don’t require a bunch of extra time. You’re already doing lots of them, you just need to slightly tweak them and tweak your mindset because I always used to feel that I was never doing enough. And that was something that was going on in my mind. Now I’m like this is what I’m doing and it’s great and it is enough. And so as soon as I switched my mindset and it’s really easy to say it’s so much harder to do, I don’t want you to think this is a magic pill, but to start to shift that mind of, I am doing enough, my students are doing well, and this is how I’m helping them rather than feeling like we’re always behind.

Sam Demma
You mentioned the thing you did that helped when you were really burnt out was take a step away. For the educator listening who’s feeling a little bit burnt out and maybe is not having the most positive mindset right now, but knows that like, I’m not, like, I’m not leaving. I don’t want to, I don’t want to leave. What would you advise them to think about or start shifting and changing to rebuild a positive relationship with their workplace?

Carman Murray
That’s such a great question. And there’s a few avenues you can go. So I feel like, so I mentioned this to you when we were talking before we started recording, is I do run a group for teachers and I do coaching on health and wellness as well as classroom dynamics. And so finding yourself a group like that, reaching out to me, is one place to start. Sometimes, though, we need to take time off. Like there needs to be a time away so we can actually fully recover from whatever it is we’re recovering because I feel like there’s so much more than just what goes on in the classroom. We as humans have a life outside. We have all of our own experiences that we’ve collected, and we might be dealing with some of our own trauma and unresolved issues that are being triggered in the classroom. So I feel like if teachers can kind of start to become aware of what’s going on with them, and doing some things like, like where’s your sleep at, would be another question I would ask is, where’s your sleep at and what’s going on in your nervous system? Are you able to respond to things like pause and kind of assess the situation or are you like reacting right out of the gate?

Sam Demma
The group you mentioned, is it for educators or is it open to any stressed and overwhelmed human beings? I know a few people that might not be teachers.

Carman Murray
That is a great question. So it’s open to everybody, actually. I kind of have half and half. I have half educators, and then I’ve got some people who are retired educators, and some people who are not educators at all. Because, like you mentioned, our world causes us a little bit of stress and a little bit of overwhelm. So it’s a place for anybody to land. I do have a particular component of it that is just for teachers, where we meet two or three times a month and we land and we troubleshoot teacher issues and then there’s other components to it where we work on our health and wellness and our mindset and other life challenges that show up.

Sam Demma
Let’s say a teacher is burnt out, they are returning to work after taking a little bit of time off to rebuild that relationship with themselves, improve their sleep. What boundaries do they need to put in place when they start at work again to ensure it doesn’t snowball the way it did the last time?

Carman Murray
Yeah, great. So I would say, so boundaries that teachers can set are, what do they have to offer? Like, what is your time at school? What’s your capacity and who’s your team? That’s another big one. I’m really advocating right now for teachers to use your classroom as a team. You don’t have to do everything. Have your students do their stuff. There are so many things that students can do that teachers just automatically do. And I believe we’re actually taking away life skills from students by doing everything for them.

Sam Demma
And, oh, I had another one.

Sam Demma
That’s a great one, though. I’m thinking about it right now, and I think it’s very similar in parenting. It’s like, let the student, let the young person fall in their hands a few times, let them get involved, let them get their hands dirty because it’s gonna help them build their character as well.

Carman Murray
Absolutely, and it also, like when we talk about boundaries, we also need to look at where are we over giving? Because if we only have, like if we only have 10 units of energy a day and we give away 14 or we use up 14 every day, we leave ourselves at a deficit. So who are the people in your own home that can help you keep things on track, right? It’s like, I had a discussion yesterday with annoyance about my son who left his stuff everywhere and he’s almost 19. And so do I pick it up, like, right? Do I pick it up and just do it myself because that’s easier or do I give him a little bit of flack and go, okay, buddy, deal with your stuff because he’s old enough to, and all of those things. So boundaries, boundaries are huge. And I think even those of us who aren’t teachers or those of you that are listening that aren’t teachers can also struggle with boundaries. What are you saying yes to? What are you saying no to? And I think more importantly, what are you saying yes to that you don’t really want to?

Sam Demma
It’s almost thinking like an entrepreneur and delegating the things in your life that are not bringing you joy happiness and fulfillment but still need to get done. What are some of the things that you think are top of the list hanging fruits that an educator or a teacher may think about letting go control over and delegating to a student or a colleague or another team member that might lighten the load a little bit?

Carman Murray
So back to having the kids involved. Yeah. Students, right? If you’re in a room full of 30 bodies, one of them is going to think that writing on the whiteboard is the best thing ever. And the other one doesn’t want to touch anything to do with it. Right? One of them is going to be super excited about organizing the bookshelves, the other one’s not going to touch it with a 10-foot pole. So I would say really talk to your people, like talk to your students. What is it that they want to do? How do they want to help? And I even believe that with like project planning. When I taught, I loved planning projects with my kids. In fact, one of the times we planned a project with my parents, one was a pilot for a private jet company, and we got to go to the hangar and sit in. Oh my. Right? There’s so many resources out there that are available. So how can we tap into that team and delegate to our students based on their interests as well as teaching them that there’s some things that you don’t really want to do that you still have to do in life, right? Somebody needs to empty the garbage. And then the piece of delegation, I also think that often schools are wanting teachers to do more, especially I live in rural Alberta and so there’s not a lot of teachers in my kids’ school, so there’s only enough teachers to go so far. So where are you accessing community involvement? And when teachers say no to things so they’re not over capacity enough times, then they have to start looking somewhere else. And if teachers are always saying yes and they don’t have the space or capacity to do it, then they’re like, oh, we’ve got the expertise in their building, right? Sam said he would do that. Sam said he would do this. Sam said he would run the lunch club and the library club and the game club when Sam really doesn’t have time to do all that. So where can they find other resources? And most places have resources in their cages.

Sam Demma
That’s such a great idea. I’m even thinking, what if at the start of a fresh semester or a new group of students, you wrote down on the whiteboard all of the things that have to be done in the classroom that are repeatable tasks that are typically done by the teacher themselves, which could be given as a responsibility and a growth opportunity to one student each in the classroom. And it’s like an auction, you go down the list and it’s like an honor to do the tasks. And people bid on it with their excitement. And maybe a few of them are assigned because no one may want certain tasks, but I think, I think there’s something there, like auctioning off, auctioning off classroom tasks to your students.

Carman Murray
Well, and I love that, because I love the auction part of it and I’m going to take it one step back, is brainstorm that list with your students. Yeah. Those things that they’re going to think of that you don’t think of.

Sam Demma
I love that, that’s such a powerful idea. What do you think are some of the, I’m going to shift gears for a moment, in regard to building relationships with students, we talked a little bit about classroom management, but what do you think are some of the best practices to build stronger relationships with young people as a teacher?

Carman Murray
That’s a really great question, because when you look at classes that have 46 kids in them, that’s a lot of kids, and you probably have four classes like that. For me, and this is my disclaimer, I’ve always taught in rural schools and I went to a rural school, is like when I taught, I knew all 325 kids in the building because we were a K-12 school. But there’s components of what are those kids good at? What conversations can you have with them that aren’t just about their assignments and what’s late or what’s not late? And what good questions do you ask them? It’s just like, how’s your day? What’s their response? And then is there more to read into that response? And I also feel like there’s opportunities within your classroom to find that information out. I volunteer with the Rocky View Leadership Academy and work with leadership kids and they’re phenomenal. And I love the experience. And we’ll often, we usually start in a circle with 30 to 60 kids and do a one word check-in. And so each kid goes around, they’re like exhausted, excited, tired, overwhelmed, you know, all the things that they come up with take less than three minutes. And it gives me as a volunteer, as well as the lady who runs, the idea of where the kids are all at, and it gives the people around them an idea of where they’re at. I also feel like you can give assignments that give students the opportunity to express where they’re really at. And real conversations. I loved doing assessment with students. I know it takes a little bit longer, but it really allows me, per se, in their head as to, you know, if I was going to give you a, this is a bit of an old scale, but if I was to give you a mark out of 10, what would you choose that mark to be? And they might choose like a six out of 10. And you’re looking at it going, I think maybe that’s more like an eight out of 10. It’s like, okay, why would you give it a six? And then they kind of unpack what goes on in their brain about their own learning and why they did certain things. So it gives you an idea. So those are some of the things that I’ve done and I would do in a class to support kids in getting them to know each other. Getting to know them as a teacher, but also getting them to know each other. Because I think that in a class of 46, you want your students to have more touch points than just you.

Sam Demma
On that idea of getting to know each other, phenomenal ideas around building relationships with the students. How do you think that you build relationships with your colleagues as an educator and a teacher as well? I find that sometimes classrooms can become these little silos in a bigger school building, where people aren’t collaborating as much as they could benefit from doing so. How did you build those relationships and leverage other educators when you were also a teacher?

Carman Murray
So we used to have a meeting once a week with, there was, I taught grade six and there was a grade five teacher and a grade four teacher. And we would meet the three of us once a week at lunchtime. And lots of times it was on the fly, and sometimes somebody couldn’t make it, or somebody showed up 10 minutes later or whatever. And we sat in a different room and just kind of like we had a bit of an agenda, different conversations we were having about what was maybe working, what wasn’t working, what projects are we working, how can we support each other, so that we know we’re not alone in that building, and we can rely on each other for two-minute conversations or 20-minute lunches so that you can get to know each other is one of the ways. And the other thing that I also did, and sometimes I got funny looks for it, is we know that sometimes a staff room is a place that can be challenging to be in, because sometimes it’s a negative zone or whatever it is. And I would sit at a table where people were having a conversation about other students or not staff members, but often students, and it would be like, I’d sit down and be like, oh, what was something you did that was cool today? And bringing the focus back to that actual person rather than them talking about students, because we know what happens. We know there is a need for a place to vent about them, but it’s just like, how do we use that staff room to build relationships with other staff. And I got odd looks all the time, and I’m okay with that. But I also am not okay to sit in a staff room where there’s a table that’s loud that’s talking about students, and not necessarily in a great way.

Sam Demma
Yeah, I also feel that it’s so important that you put a little bit of a protection around your energy, not only as an educator, but in any field, and recognizing that if those types of conversations make you feel less than and make you feel burnt out, then there’s no need to participate in them, right?

Carman Murray
I think there’s, yes, the part of don’t participate in them, but then I feel like for me, anyways, there’s a responsibility. Shut it down. Yeah, so it’s like, let’s talk about something else. Or what’s something cool that kid has going on? Or like just to start to redirect the conversation, which is so powerful because kids struggle enough. We don’t, right? We all, and I don’t say we all struggle enough. It’s helpful not to be talking about other people. And I think if you’re listening to this and you are like, oh, I’m that person, just start different conversations.

Sam Demma
I’m sure there’s multiple people listening to this right now thinking, this Carman Murray lady is speaking my language and I want to read her book and I want to hear more about her group. So can you tell us how people can connect with you, get in touch about the group, and check out the book as well?

Carman Murray
Yeah, absolutely. So my book is called Teachers First, a guide to avoiding and overcoming burnout in the classroom. It’s available on Amazon and it’s also available in Chapters. And my website is www.healthyteachers.ca. And my group, if you’re interested in my group or even having a conversation with me, there’s a chat with me button on my website. Just click on that and book a time and we can chat and see where you’re at and see if I can help you or support you or if we’re a fit. Because sometimes we’re not and sometimes we are. Absolutely no pressure in having a conversation and just getting connected. I also am on Instagram.

Sam Demma
Nice.

Carman Murray
And Facebook and LinkedIn.

Sam Demma
Thank you so much for investing the time to share some of your insights on the show. I hope you continue to spread this message as far and wide as you possibly can. Keep up the great work and we’ll talk again soon.

Carman Murray
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Sam, and you as well. You’re doing amazing things in this world and creating a great ripple effect.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Carman Murray

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

October 17, 2024 by Educator Mental Health Professor Teachers Uncategorized 0

Darlene O’Neill — Director of employment and student entrepreneurial services at Fanshawe College

Darlene O’Neill — Director of employment and student entrepreneurial services at Fanshawe College
About Darlene O’Neill

Darlene (@Darlene68615693) started her career in the Department of National Defence where for 21 years she worked in a variety of roles – the final 7 years were as the senior human resources business manager, for the civilian workforce supporting the east coast navy.

Prior to joining Fanshawe College, Darlene worked for Nova Scotia Community College as a career practitioner and a project manager in essential skills.

Darlene joined Fanshawe College in 2011 as the assistant manager, career services, community employment services and cooperative education. In 2012, she became the manager of the department, and in 2015 became the senior manager. In 2017, Darlene was appointed director, employment and student entrepreneurial Services. Darlene is the lead administrator for the military-connected college initiative at Fanshawe and is currently the administrative co-lead in the college’s united way corporate campaign. Darlene is also a part-time professor in the career development practitioner post graduate program.

Darlene holds a Bachelor Degree in Psychology, a Master of Education Degree (Adult Education) and a Career Development Practitioner postgraduate certificate.

She is the recipient of the Michelle C Comeau Leadership in Human Resources Award (Federal), The National Federal Government Managers Network Leadership Award (Managing Change), the National Defence Human Resource Leadership Award, co-recipient of Employment Ontario (MTCU) Leadership Award (Collaboration), The Fanshawe College Presidents Award (Administrator) and the CCVPS Art King Award ( Student Service).

Darlene is committed to creating inclusive environments where student centric mindsets are prevalent. Strategy, empathy and empowering effective change are of utmost importance to her in her leadership and work.

Connect with Darlene: Email | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Department of National Defence

Royal Canadian Navy

Fanshawe College

Nova Scotia Community College

Military-Connected Student in Trades Pilot Project (MCSTPP)

Career Development Practitioner Post Graduate Program

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High-Performing Educator. Today’s special guest is a new friend of mine. I met this individual in person in November. She is a powerhouse. Her name is Darlene O’Neill. Darlene, welcome to the podcast. Please take a moment to introduce yourself.

Darlene O’Neill
Hi, Sam. Thank you very much. Yeah, my name is Darlene and I’m the Director of Employment and Student Entrepreneurial Services at Sandshop College here in London, Ontario.

Sam Demma
You are someone who has so much energy. I remember just watching you absorb the first keynote presentation of the Ignite Conference and you’re fully engaged. It was so cool to see you sticking around for the entire day and supporting the event. Tell me a little bit more about your role and why you’re so passionate about the work that you do on campus. 

Darlene O’Neill
Yeah, so I’m really, really fortunate. I have the responsibility for helping all students at our campus, as well as all our alumni and community members find employment, which is really, really important because we all know that the main reason students go to college is to get a job. So I have a wonderful, wonderful team made up of a lot of co-op consultants, career consultants, entrepreneurial consultants, and community employment consultants. And I think it’s really important that we demonstrate passion ourselves as leaders if we want our team to demonstrate passion.

Sam Demma
And recently, you also started doing a little bit of support for our students taking on a military pathway. Is that correct?

Darlene O’Neill
That’s right. Yes. I’m the lead administrator here at Fanshawe College for the Military Connected Campus Initiative, which provides a holistic support for our military connected students. So, not necessarily serving members and or veterans, but also their families. And we just want to make sure that they’re supported academically and socially through their journey here at Fanshawe. So, I’m really blessed to be leading that initiative.

Sam Demma
Sometimes I ask people that work in education, when they realize they wanted to do so, I get typically a few different answers. The first category is people that tell me they used to create little doll houses or little school classrooms in their basements when they were little kids. A second subset tell me that they had parents who were in education and they decided to follow in their footsteps. And the third group tells me they had no idea and they stumbled into it. Which group do you fit in and what did your journey look like that brought you to education?

Darlene O’Neill
Oh wow Sam, that’s a big question. I think a little bit of all of it. When I was a little girl I used to be the person in the middle of the circle in kindergarten reading stories to the other students while the teacher went about their business and doing things that they needed to do. So I’ve always loved education, but I was working for National Defence for 21 years. And I hit a glass ceiling in National Defence where I didn’t speak French, unfortunately, and I had just finished a master’s degree in education. And I thought, oh well, well just leave Defence and I’ll go and try my hat in education and here I am now almost 20 years later and loving what I do. I did choose, I chose college education as the pathway for me because my education is in adult education and I’m really passionate about watching young people and people of all ages that come to college specifically for that aspirational better life.

Sam Demma
I love that. Can we talk about your experience working in defence for just a moment? Like what were you doing with National Defence and what are some of the skills you developed there that you think have bridged into the work you’re doing today at Fanshawe?

Darlene O’Neill
Yeah, so my career in national defense started with the submarine inventory control point. And I was buying parts for submarines. But that, you know, it progressed. I went on to do my undergraduate degree and I ended up in the Self-Directed Learning Center. I actually opened a self-directed learning center at Defence in Halifax and that was really fun. And then I went on to become a senior human resources business manager, working directly for the admirals on the East Coast. And my role was strategic HR for about 7,000 civilians that support the Navy on the East Coast. It was so enlightening for me. I was a young leader. I was there when 9-11 happened. And that taught me some great lessons in determination, in commitment, in ethics, in just supporting people and being very, very proud of the work that the military does to give us a better home.

Sam Demma
Young leadership is something that may relate to some of the educators tuning in who are getting into the profession at a very young age, that feel a little bit like an imposter at times, are very intimidated by everybody else in their school or in the spaces they’re operating. How did you navigate as a young leader? What did you do to be sure of yourself and know that you were a valued member of the team so you could show up and use your gifts to the fullest of their potential? 

Darlene O’Neill
Great question. I think I’ve been very fortunate throughout my entire career, especially as a young leader, to have amazing mentors. I will never forget the first meeting I attended with an admiral in the room. And you know, an admiral is a pretty big guy in the Navy. And, you know, the admiral told me afterwards, Darlene, you’re going to have to learn to wear a poker face. And I was like, oh my goodness, okay, so that was lesson number one, wear a poker face. But try to come with a solution. So if you’re going to ask a question, have a possible solution to present when you’re asking the question. Always treat people with respect and dignity and expect that for yourself as well. Even though you’re young, doesn’t mean that you don’t have good ideas, doesn’t mean that you’re not committed and dedicated, it doesn’t mean that people won’t respect you. A lot of, you know, young people build our world. They’re our future, so we need to invest in them. And as a young leader, I think, you know, the biggest lesson I learned was find a mentor, too. And spend time with them and learn from them. Watch them. Watch people that you respect. Don’t speak before you think is another good one because sometimes the most important things you say are unsaid.

Sam Demma
I’m just absorbing all this information right now as I’m sure that the guests tuned in are doing the same. Speaking about developing young people and the fact that they’re our future, that’s literally what you’re doing at Fanshawe. When you think about the impact the program is having on students, do you have any stories that come to mind of students who have joined the college and when they first came, they were a little uncertain and unclear. And a few years later, they were graduating and getting placed and doing amazing work in the community or in a job. And, you know, you may not have a specific story if you do great, but if you don’t have a specific one, maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the pathways that students take when they come to Fanshawe?

Darlene O’Neill
Yeah, I have lots of stories of students that have entered into the doors of our office and have gone on to do amazing things. There’s been a few that stick out. We have a number of young entrepreneurs that took advantage of our summer incubator, and they’re now quite successful in their own right. We have Kelvin, the fritter guy. If you’ve tried Kelvin’s fritters, they’re amazing. And we have a fashion designer that’s lived quite a great life as a result of taking advantage of opportunities. Also, there are a number of international students that touch my heart quite often. I have one who’s actually now on my team, but I watched this young man from his very first days at Fanshawe navigate COVID, navigate online learning. He went on to become the student union president. So he’s had a wonderful career path. And when I look at all of the things that he’s done to find his way, they’re all reaching out, finding mentors, asking for help, not being afraid to say, I don’t know, but I want to learn and building relationships. Another young woman, she’s now quite successful in Tech Alliance, which is a part of our entrepreneurial ecosystem here in London. It does all of their media, all of their marketing and social stuff for them. There’s so many of them. There’s accountants and there’s law clerks and there’s a young man that was paralyzed as a result of an accident and he’s gone on to become quite a young accountant. He’s an athlete, plays sledge hockey, he just lives his best life. And I think these students are the ones that come through the doors, they study hard, but they build relationships, they get involved in student life, they get involved in their mentorship programs, they attend workshops, extracurricular activities, Ignite at one point or another. So, yeah, so I think that those are some of the students that really stand out for me. And then from a community perspective, we also have a community employment agency. And our community employment agency has seen so many people that are facing some pretty tough times, walk through the doors, swallow that pride, ask for help, and now they’re contributing members of society, which is a wonderful thing when you work in the employment field and career field and education field. It’s amazing watching people grow.

Sam Demma
It’s like the caterpillar to butterfly story.

Darlene O’Neill
Absolutely, it sure is. You know, the biggest part is asking for help, right? And once you walk through that door, the world of possibilities opens for you.

Sam Demma
You reiterated the importance of relationships. Many educators know how important it is to build relationships with their students, to build relationships with their colleagues. How do you think you build relationships with young people, with students that are going through your school buildings and programs?

Darlene O’Neill
So I think the secret sauce is simply a smile. A smile and some eye contact can make the world of difference. You know many people when they come to post-secondary they’re scared, they might have been, you know, traveling from another world by themselves, from another country, they might have come from rural Ontario and have never been in the city, and they might be someone that’s just been laid off of a job or a career changer. And it’s a lonely, lonely place if you don’t build relationships. So I intentionally walk the halls of the college and I try to make eye contact and smile with students. And they remember who I am because when they catch your eye and smile back, that’s an instant I see you. I see you. I believe in you. I recognize you. And I’m here to support you. And I think that’s really important in the life of students is to know that somebody cares about them.

Sam Demma
And not only do you build relationships with the students, but you also want to build strong relationships with colleagues. A lot of educators that tune in, especially the ones that are just getting started in education, they’re worried because they don’t know too many of the people that they’re working with. How do you go about building relationships with colleagues and collaborating and just, yeah, building a stronger relationship amongst members of your team?

Darlene O’Neill
That’s a great question. So I think, you know, oh Darlene’s extroverted so she can talk to anybody. That’s true, but it’s also true that introverts can make impactful relationships and build impactful relationships. I think, you know, as I said earlier, the first thing to do is to model the behavior share with others. So, ask for help. Like, if you feel that your team can’t do this on their own, build a relationship with somebody else. The Student Union, the International Office, the Student Services Office, the Counseling Office, the academic teachers, and the deans, we’re all on the same agenda. We all want our students to be successful in post-secondary. And so I think, you know, following through on what you say you’ll do is really important. Be a doer, practice reciprocity. So if somebody does something for your team to make your team shine, then you return the favor somehow. Or at least at minimum recognize what they’ve done to support your team’s success. Recognize as a leader what your individual team members have done. Always say thank you. And it doesn’t need to be a big hoopla, but thanking your team members in public is really important. It empowers them, it emboldens the work that they do, and it verifies the work they do. It makes them feel valued. So if you can make another human being feel valued, then they’re going to feel commitment, and they’re going to want to help you. And I think that that’s a secret sauce as well, is always, you know, make sure that you know or make sure that you recognize the good work that other people do.

Sam Demma
I love that. You’re supporting student success in many ways, your team’s success. I know there are some exciting developments that are coming together at Fanshawe, maybe even a new wing being built or a facility. Are we not allowed to talk about it?

Darlene O’Neill
No, we can. Absolutely. We’re super excited. I can, absolutely.

Sam Demma
Okay, tell me some of the new developments

Darlene O’Neill
that are coming together that you’re really excited about. Yeah, so 10 years ago we started Leaf Junction and Leaf Junction is our entrepreneurial arm. Creativity and innovation is a game changer at Fanshawe College. And so we are super excited that on January 26th, we’re going to be opening Innovation Village in partnership with our student union, our Center for Research and Innovation, Leap Junction, and our Library Learning Commons. So a lot of partners living together in one building, but we have created the most exceptional space for students ever. And I look at you, Sam, in your green room, you know, with your mic and your earphones. And we have all these rooms for these students now where they can go in and do broadcasts. And we have a virtual reality room. There’s makerspaces. It’s so exciting. We had a sneak peek last week. And it’s a look into the future for Fanshawe College and lots of opportunities to partner with us and to help our students grow, but also to solve challenging situations for employers. So, as I said earlier, young people are going to be the future, and so we’re going to give them an opportunity through Innovation Village to solve problems in our community and with our employers and to help them make this place a better place to be in.

Sam Demma
This village sounds amazing. What does it physically look like? When I hear village, I think collaborative and lots of different shops. Like, what does it look like physically?

Darlene O’Neill
There’s lots of spaces, there’s lots of alcoves, there’s lots of wide open spaces. It’s bright. It’s really honouring our Indigenous culture as well. It has external gardens. It has a fire, a sacred fireplace outside. It’s like, there are three So it’s huge and airy and bright and lots of glass, lots of windows, lots of greenery, funky colors. It’s really, really cool. When you come back to Fanshawe, Sam, I’ll take you on a tour.

Sam Demma
Please.

Darlene O’Neill
It sounds like the perfect place to brainstorm creative ideas, talking about innovation.

Sam Demma
It certainly is, yes. And outside of this massive project, are there anything else that you’d like to spotlight that’s coming together at the college or programs or anything that other people might not be aware of that’s really awesome that’s happening behind the scenes?

Darlene O’Neill
Well everything Fanshawe is awesome, I’ll just say that. I love Fanshawe College, I love the opportunities and that it creates for people. I love the people I work with, I’m very happy. My boss always tells me that I remind her of the little girl in the Maxwell House commercial. I’m not sure if you’ve seen that, but you know, she’s always like, I love my job and I love my family and I love my friends. So, awesome things happening at Fanshawe. Well, Sam, we met at Ignite, which is our student conference, a career conference for students. And it’s pretty exceptional that about 400 students spend a Saturday with us. This year, 2024, will be Ignite’s 10th anniversary. So we’re always looking for employers to support our students with opportunities for growth and employment and to make a difference in their workplace. So yeah, Fanshawe just continues to be an amazing place to be.

Sam Demma
Ah, I love it. If you could travel back in time, speak to yourself when you were just starting your work in education but with the knowledge you have now and the experience what would you tell your younger self that you think you need to hear when you were just starting the journey? 

Darlene O’Neill
Yeah that’s a great question Sam. I think I would tell my younger self earlier you talked about imposter syndrome and young people having imposter syndrome I would tell my younger self that you know what it’s going to be okay do what you do be authentic be true to yourself and good things will happen and always always give back make sure that you say thank you younger self just be authentic and don’t give up don’t ever give up I once one of my mentors once told me, you know sometimes young people that are successful are seen as the golden child or the golden employee. And I was that person at one time and it hurts the core sometimes when people would say things like that. And my boss would say to me, my mentor, she would say, you just rise above that. Rise above it. There’s better days ahead, and you will be successful. Don’t be angry, don’t be sad. Learn from what these people are saying, and the biggest lesson that you can learn from a leader or a colleague is what you don’t wanna be. And so always remember what you don’t wanna be.

Sam Demma
Awesome. Darlene, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast, talk about some of your beliefs around education, a little bit about your career journey and your own personal trajectory, some exciting developments happening at Fanshawe College. If there is someone who’s listening to this feeling very inspired by you and would love to just ask a question, what would be the most effective way for them to get in touch and reach out?

Darlene O’Neill
Yeah, so anybody can email me at any time at doneill@fanshawec.ca.

Sam Demma
Awesome. Thank you again, Darlene. This has been a pleasure. Keep up the great work. Enjoy your upcoming travels, and I will see you at some time in 2024. Awesome. Thank you again, Darlene. This has been a pleasure. Keep up the great work. Enjoy your upcoming travels, and I will see you at some time in 2024.

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January 21, 2024 by Administrative Support Cooperative Education Executive Director Experiential Learning Professor Student Leadership Student Success Teachers Teaching Tips

Keri-Ellen Walcer — Professor and Program Coordinator of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at Durham College

Keri-Ellen Walcer — Professor and Program Coordinator of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at Durham College
About Keri-Ellen Walcer

Keri-Ellen Walcer has been a professor at Durham College (DC) since 2013. She is currently the Program Coordinator for the Entrepreneurship and Small Business program in the Faculty of Business. Keri-Ellen holds a B.A. in Health Promotion from Brock University and an MHSc.in Kinesiology from Ontario Tech University. Prior to joining DC Keri-Ellen established a global children’s fitness brand working with partners in the community, government and entertainment industries.

Keri-Ellen is passionate about helping students develop their unique brands and innovative business models. She is very active in her community service activities and loves to empower young adults to be changemakers.

Connect with Keri-Ellen: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Facebook

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

YMCA Canada

Steal Like An Artist by Austin Kleon

Musigo Inc

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma
Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast, your source of professional development and connections in the education industry. This is your host, keynote speaker, and author, Sam Demma. Today we are joined by Keri-Ellen Walcer. Keri-Ellen Walcer has been a professor at Durham College since 2013. She is currently the program coordinator for the Entrepreneurship and Small Business program in the Faculty of Business. Carrie Ellen holds a BA in health promotion from Brock University and a master’s in kinesiology from Ontario Tech University. Prior to joining Durham College, Carrie Ellen established a global children’s fitness brand working with partners in the community, government, and entertainment industries. Carrie Ellen is passionate about helping students develop their unique brands and innovative business models. She is very active in her community service activities and loves to empower young adults to be changemakers. I hope you enjoy this impactful conversation and I will see you on the other side. Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator Podcast. This is your host and speaker, Sam Demma. Super excited to have Keri-Ellen Walcer on the show here today. Keri-Ellen Walcer, thanks so much for taking the time to be here.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Thanks so much for having me, Sam. I’m super excited about our conversation today.

Sam Demma
So I always like to start by asking, like, what made you the person you are today? Where did you come from?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Wow, that’s a big question. Well, I am the youngest of six kids. I’m from a very active and entrepreneurial family. My mom was from the UK, my dad was from Holland. They met here in Canada and yeah, we’ve always had a full house and lots of activity and lots of fun in our house. So yeah, that’s kind of where I come from.

Sam Demma
Does that inspire the full house you have now?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I, I, I’ve created my own full house. Um, yeah, I’ve always loved having people around, um, you know, being the youngest, my siblings all had children before I did. And so even though I didn’t have younger siblings, I always had, you know, nephews around a lot of nephews, a couple of nieces, but a lot of nephews. And so family functions are always a lot of fun, a lot of games, a lot of activity, and just lots of ideas.

Sam Demma
Did your parents’ entrepreneurial aspirations influence your own? Like, tell me more about your parents’ aspirations in entrepreneurship.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Oh man.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yes.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
My dad was very creative. He was all… I think when I was a baby he had an ice cream shop at one point. And my mom says that as a baby, you know, I’d sit on the counter and he’d feed me soft ice cream and whatnot. So, you know, right from the time we were growing up, but he always had different ideas for different businesses. And I remember as a teenager going to him to trade shows, selling some of the stuff that he had invented or different things. There’s always some kind of side hustle going on in our house.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yeah.

Sam Demma
That’s awesome. I think the soft serve ice cream as someone who’s lactose intolerant for me wouldn’t have been the best idea as a baby but that’s a fond memory to think about The did that directly inform your decision to be an entrepreneur yourself like tell me more about your own entrepreneurial journey Yeah

Keri-Ellen Walcer
So so actually I have to say when I was five years old, I had decided I was going to start a jewelry making club. Like I said, my dad worked at a car manufacturer and he would bring home little empty spools of thread and different bits and pieces and I would make jewelry out of these plastic pieces and things that he would bring home from the factory. And so I decided I had like one friend in the neighborhood, there wasn’t really many children in my neighborhood, and I made this little kit. It was like a jewelry making kit and I like dropped it off at her house and said, do you want to be part of my jewelry making club? And you know, so when I really think about it, like I was doing this stuff from the time I was super little. I remember actually even at that time when I was living at that house, so I was again, I think I moved when we were five, like I think I had my fifth birthday at the new house, but so before I’d even moved from the original house I lived in, there was a Dickie D ice cream guy that would drive around on his bike in our neighborhood and, you know, I would be playing out front by myself and I always wanted to get this ice cream. So I decided that I would get Monopoly money and go and order some ice cream from him. Now I knew that the Monopoly money was not real money, but I figured that like $500 in Monopoly dollars must be worth at least 50 cents in like regular dollars. So I went out to the ice cream, I had my pocket full of this Monopoly money. I went out to the ice cream guy and I asked him for the ice cream and he gave me the ice cream and then he asked me for the money and so I pulled the Monopoly money out of my pocket and he goes, oh no, you can’t use that. And I said, listen, no, I know it’s not real money, but I explained to him like it must be worth something, like come on, this is $500 Monopoly, it’s got to be worth at least an ice cream. But no, he wouldn’t take it. But I did make some good sense, I think. Like, I was really trying to wheel and deal, and I felt like I had, you know, a good deal I was willing to make, but that wasn’t successful. So, yeah, those things were happening right back then. Now, fast forward to when I was in my early 20s. I got married young. I married my high school sweetheart, so we had known each other for a long time. But we were, I was 20 years old when I got married and I was just finishing up university. And so when I finished, I was, I just had my first baby. So she was actually at my university graduation. And I had finished a degree in community health and fitness. And I had also been a dancer throughout my life. I love, I love dancing. And so here I was, I just graduated, I have a baby and I was not eager to leave her alone. And so I started developing little, little knee bounces and dances and things like that, that I could do with her with, and my intention from that was twofold. One was for myself to keep active and to develop a program that could help me to keep up my own fitness level while also helping her reach her developmental milestones. So I started reading a lot of books about children and their developmental milestones and things. I started developing this program. At the time, we bought a house, so again, we were very young, and we had bought this house that was a little bit outside of our price range since we had no money at all. Did you use the Monopoly money? Yeah. So we bought… Yeah, they didn’t take Monopoly money for the house either. So we’re stuck a little bit. But we bought this house because it had a second entrance and we were going to rent out part of the house. And that was how we were going to be able to maintain this house. Luckily, we were living in a university town at the time, so we had no problem renting it out. But by the time she was born, I kind of thought, well, it would be nice for us to have the whole house to ourselves. And so I figured if I could start a little business in my house and make the same amount of money that we had been earning in rent, that I could justify just having our own house. So I started a little dance studio in the house, in the apartment. We converted the apartment to a dance studio and put mirrors and everything up and started dance classes there. So my classes, what started as dance, became this fitness movement class that I created, which like I said, was not only to entertain kids, but to also maintain my own fitness and to kind of morph that. So that actually grew quite quickly and I was also doing birthday parties at the same time, but really all of this was just to justify myself being able to stay home and to be able to take over our own home and have our own home. And it worked very well. Eventually I was renting space in other dance studios and offering my programs both in my own home as well as in dance studios. And my husband was working as a teacher at a private school. And then we got the inkling to move. We wanted to be, at the time we were living about two and a half hours away from both of our families, and both of our original families, and we were having more and more kids. So by this point I was pregnant with my third child and we felt like maybe it was time to move back closer to our families of origin. And by that time I had about 200 students. So it had been two years and between my dance classes and what became known as Wee Wigglers, the Wee Wigglers programs that I had developed starting at age six months up to five years old, I realized that I had actually sort of created something worth something. And really actually what it was is that the families that were, right, like I didn’t teach children over the age of five. All of my students were between six months and five years old. And at the time, this was 20 years ago, nobody else was doing anything like that, certainly not in our town. And I don’t really think anywhere else. I don’t think anywhere else anybody was really doing like that. And so the families came to me and said, well, what are we going to do when you leave? Like, look at all of us. We were doing recitals and like, it was a very unique thing. And so that’s when I got the idea to license the program. So there was a colleague, well, another, a fellow business owner that I, that I, her student, actually her daughter was one of my first students and one of the inspirations for me developing these Wigglers programs. So she was teaching mom and baby fitness up to six months and then I was starting them at six months. So we had developed a friendship and we had developed sort of a business camaraderie and I said to her, you know, a lot of her students she was sending to me when they were too old for her programs and so she was really feeding my business. And I said, well listen, you know, a lot of my students are starting with you anyway. Why don’t you license these programs? I’ll set you up and you can keep running them here. And when I move, I still deserve the right to keep running them wherever I go. So she thought that was a great idea. And then there was another studio owner who also thought it was a great idea. So that was my first two licensees. And again, it was not that I specifically set out to do this from the beginning, it was just to fill a gap and to fill a need and to fill some demand that was generated. So that was kind of my first four-way. I ran that, I developed those programs and licensed it across North America. We even had a licensee in the UK. And by the time I sold it, I think I had been running it for about 15 years and growing it and developing it. And I was also growing and developing my own family. So by that point I had four children who were all in various ages and stages and things like that. And it was getting to be a lot. Everything was growing. My business was growing, my family was growing, there’s a lot of responsibility. And I also started developing some curiosity around other types of programs and how these programs could be used in other settings besides just a regular dance setting and so I decided to pursue more education and The rest is history. But yeah, that was my that was my entrepreneurial start

Sam Demma
You mentioned a phrase that stuck in my mind the moment you said it and it was back to the monopoly money at the ice cream truck you said it’s got to be worth something and again, you said, this is I built something that was actually worth something, which is so cool. But it takes so much self belief to take an idea that you have, it’s just in your head, believe in yourself enough and in the idea that it’s got to be worth something to take the actions to bring it to life. Where did your self belief come from?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Oh, wow. You know, I heard a phrase at some point in time, I came across this phrase that says confidence is not feeling sure that you can’t lose, it’s being not afraid to lose. And I look at my siblings, like I said, I’m the youngest of six, and all of us have displayed and manifest entrepreneurial things in various ways. And we kind of laugh about it. We have a really good sense of humor about ourselves. And I think we really aren’t afraid of failure because we have made fools of ourselves a lot of times. Like the whole ice cream. That was kind of foolish, but it did set me back because it was like, that wasn’t a big deal. It’s fine. I didn’t get the ice cream, move on, you know? Yeah. So I don’t think, again, I don’t really feel confident that everything I do is always going to be amazing. In fact, nothing I’ve ever done has ever turned out the way I thought it would. And I think it’s just getting used to the fact that, you know, yeah, you can have a vision in mind, but, you know, I paint as well, I create art. My art never looks the way that I think it’s going to look or the way I want it to look. And at first, I go through this process, and a lot of artists go through this process where it looks awful to you and you’re like, oh, you’re so frustrated and you’re so done with it. And then for me, by the time I’m finished a piece, I’m not finished because I love it. I’m finished because I’m so sick of it. But then I walk away from it and, you know, maybe a month later, maybe two months later, I look at it again and I go, oh, that was actually pretty

Keri-Ellen Walcer
good.

Sam Demma
You know what I mean? That’s a common trend for artists. I just finished reading a book called Steal Like an Artist by a gentleman named Austin Cleon and he shared a story of a young man who grew up drawing and sketching and every day his garbage can at the end of the day would be filled with all the drawings that he didn’t think were good enough and he’d crumple them up and throw them in the trash. But his dad would go into his bedroom when he fell asleep as a little kid and take the garbage can, uncrumple the pages and kept them in a drawer in his bedroom. When his dad passed away, one of the things he left for his son was like an 800-page scrapbook of all the drawings he made that he didn’t think were worthy. And I thought it was such a powerful story. Like just hearing you say that brought me back to that moment and it gives me a little bit of goosebumps. Like art sometimes takes you on a journey of disgust and excitement, but at the end, there’s a cool thing that happens. Like you bring an idea to life, even if it’s different than the one you had in your mind. I think we’re living in a time right now where a lot of young people want to bring ideas to life. They want to create something worth something. And sometimes that desire takes them on a different path. And I know that Durham College and the work that you do at the school is providing cool opportunities for entrepreneurs or people who have that spirit while also earning their educational certificates and diplomas. Tell me about how you started your work at Durham College and some of the projects that you’re unfolding and building now?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yeah, so I was doing this training program and I decided to approach Durham College to see if they wanted me to do these one-day trainings. And as serendipity would have it, it turned out that they weren’t just looking for the one-day certification program, they were actually launching a whole new program that I was a good fit for. So I started working part-time teaching that program and found, just found a love for working with these young adults, which I had never really worked with before. I mean in my business I was working with, like I said, only up to five years old. Yeah. All my only had up to five-year-old kids. So at first again I was a little bit nervous. It was out of my element, I thought, but it did not take long for me to just find joy in meeting with these young adults and helping them on their path. So that was my start at Durham College, and I did find that as my children grew, as I was saying, with my business, so I was still running my business and working at the college and having babies.

Sam Demma
You had a family.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Five.

Sam Demma
Wow.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
I did get to a point as I got older and a little bit more mature that I needed to maybe pare down the demands on me because I felt like I wanted to have a little bit more control of my time and my scheduling. So I found that the college life really afforded me a little more work-life balance, which is when I decided to sell the business and then pursue teaching full-time. So that puts me here in the entrepreneurship program.

Sam Demma
You went back to school to follow the new curiosity to get into teaching. Some people think at a certain time in their life, it’s too late. They’ve made their path. One of my good friends is a guy named Sean Canugo and he has a phrase, he says, you know, everyone always talks about going from zero to a hundred from the bottom of the mountain to the top of the mountain. And he says, well, innovation happens when you go from a hundred to zero, when you scale down the mountain and start from scratch, start from zero. And, you know, you didn’t start from zero. You started from experience, and everyone does in life, but metaphorically, you went back down a mountain and started climbing a new one. For people listening to this who want to make a big shift in their life or pursue a new path but they’re struggling with the idea of letting go of the mountain they’ve already climbed, what encouragement would you share?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Well, you know, it’s funny because I think that process is exactly the same as the art process. And I think what I would wrap up that art process discussion in this little bow, where, like I said, what I discovered was nothing ever really turns out the way that I had planned. And yet I’ve been able to find the beauty in how it did turn out, that there is beauty in how it turned out. And I think you could say the same for my career, you could say the same for my business, things aren’t the way that I had anticipated. And so you can kind of, you know, get caught up in that and go, oh, you know, what if it doesn’t turn out? Well, guess what? It never does. So find beauty in what it is, and not just in the one preconceived idea that you had about it. And so if somebody is afraid to quote unquote, quote-unquote restart from the bottom or change paths because they’re afraid it’s not going to turn out. Well, it’s not. Learn how to be okay with it not being easy. Learn how to be okay with it being harder than you anticipated. And when you get used to that and when you get used to being able to see the beauty in what it is, then it doesn’t feel as much of a risk and it doesn’t feel like a failure. I remember a student, one of my entrepreneurship students, he’s a funny guy, he was very bold and he is very bold. And he walked into class, this was like one of the first days of class, I’m introducing myself, I’m talking about my business, whatever. And he says, I said, does anybody have any questions? And he goes, yeah, I’ve got a question. Have you ever failed? Like, tell us about one of your business failures. And I was like, huh. And I thought about it. And my first instinct was to say, well, no, I’ve never failed. But then I also was like, but I don’t feel like I’ve ever really succeeded. Well, you know, so I really, it made me think. And I think at the time I said to him, well, I said, I guess it just depends on how you How you define failure and how you define success That’s kind of what I said But it did make me think and actually just recently I had a thought and I and I’m reading a book by Adam Grant called Think again. Hmm, and He talks about thinking like a scientist that and and the way a scientist thinks is we have hypotheses But whatever we learn from that experiment is what we learn. Maybe our hypothesis was wrong, maybe it was right. Either way it’s learning, so it’s not a failure if your hypothesis was wrong. And I think that’s the way I’ve approached my life, that’s the way I’ve approached my business. It’s like a scientist, it’s like let’s try this and see what happens. Oh, that’s what happens when you do that. I’m gonna do more of that, or I’m not going to do that again, right? And so I think I’ve just approached things that way. So it doesn’t feel like a failure. It really always does feel like, oh, I learned something there and let’s do more of that or let’s do less of that.

Sam Demma
I guess approaching it like an experiment gives less pressure on the end result because you’re just testing things as opposed to making it like a test. You know, you fail or you succeed. It’s like, no, this is gonna be, I have my educated guests, this is gonna be an experiment, we’re gonna put some inputs and see what outputs. And if it’s really great, we’ll do more of it. And I think the beautiful thing is that it doesn’t only apply to entrepreneurship, that applies to teachers in the classroom. You know, you try things with the students you’re mentoring and teaching. This applies to relationships with your partner. This applies to raising kids. Like this applies to all the choices you can make in your life, which is really unique and cool. I have a inspiration in the music industry named Russ. He’s an independent rapper and I’ve really looked up to him in many different ways. And he has this phrase, he says, you know, I had to teach myself that it wasn’t broken success when the things I expected didn’t happen. That just was the version of success that unfolded at that point in my life. It’s not broken, it just is what it is. And that’s kind of reminded me when things didn’t fulfill my expectations that the journey and the path is the success and what happens at the end is kind of not up to your choice. It’s like by chance a little bit sometimes. Yeah. So let’s talk about the weekend program. Again, a lot of students are, they’re wanting to take different pathways, me being one of them. And sometimes it’s very difficult because when you make a big shift or you make a choice different from everyone else around you the first thing you get is pushback from all the people in your life that love you and care about you. What I think is so amazing about the program at Durham College is it marries two things together. The ability to pursue that entrepreneurial itch while also still fulfilling and obtaining some of your education.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Absolutely. I honestly, people say this, but I really mean it. I really wish that there was a program like this when I was going through what I was going through in my business. It’s kind of like starting a business with training wheels on. So, the weekend program is unique, it’s innovative because I don’t know of any other program like it. It is a full-time program, so our students are considered full-time students at the college, which means that that they can receive OSAP if needed or whatever, but it also is condensed, the learning or the class time is condensed to Friday evening, Saturdays and Sundays, and we try to have it so that there is still enough time. If people are really motivated, they can get their homework and study done on the weekend as well. So that they can be freed up through the week to pursue whatever their work week responsibilities are. Some of them are already starting their own business, and so they’re working, they’re literally doing their business, running their business through the week, and then coming on the weekends. Some of them are like what I was when I was 20 years old. Maybe they have family commitments at home and whatnot. So, it really is very flexible for our learners to be able to, yeah, hit the ground running. I mean, there is an opportunity cost to going to school. Because you’re not just paying for school, but you, in many cases, if you’re in a regular weekday program, in many cases, you’re giving up full-time employment or you’re giving up the opportunity to have full-time employment. So it’s the cost of losing that wage as well as what you’re paying for your education, which can be difficult for some people and can really limit people in what their options are. So this kind of takes that away. And it also, I love that, like I learned a lot of things the hard way in my business and I think you know there’s always going to be those types of lessons you know you can never just you can never prevent it but what I love about our program is that people can be starting their business and we have professors who are experts in their fields and who are you know you’ll have a professional accountant teaching you accounting you have a professional lawyer teaching you business law. You have entrepreneurs who have run their own businesses, run their own franchises, different things like this that can help you and answer some of those questions for you and guide you through those processes so that it’s your learning experience. I mean, running a business, being an entrepreneur, there are some expensive lessons. You know, you make investments and I think that this is a very safe investment. To be able to start that business and have those professionals, you know, at your disposal for that two years, I think is just incredible. So that’s what we aim to do. We aim to kind of be there, be your sounding boards, give you some guidance on those foundational principles of business, accounting, law, marketing. We have some amazing digital marketer, professional digital marketers that are teaching in the program right now. They’re just some incredible people who are all entrepreneurs in their own right and who are just ready to support our students in their journey.

Sam Demma
I guess you could consider this weekend program your sixth baby.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Oh my goodness.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Is that so obvious to you?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Oh my gosh.

Sam Demma
I just, I can’t feel the passion when you talk about it. I wish this was around when I was making my decision to decide to go to university or college or start building my business. It would have been a option I wish I knew more about, which is why educators listening to this right now, if you have students who you recognize have this entrepreneurial spirit and wanna build things and might not know exactly what they want to do. Guidance counselors listening to this, if that student walks into your office and tells you they want to start a company, instead of trying to redirect them back on a very formal path, consider looking into this and maybe reaching out to Carrie Ellen or someone from the college to learn more about this opportunity because I think it’s so important that more young people know about it. It would have been super helpful for me. Tell me a little bit more about how you connect with the students in your class. A lot of educators listening want to have an impact on the young people in front of them, and that’s why they got into education in the first place, to not only teach, but to pour self-belief in another human being’s backpack so that they can take the choices or make the choices required to bring the versions of themselves to life. How do you connect with students in a classroom and put that belief in their backpacks?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yeah, well, again, going back to that notion before, it’s that, you know, when you’re an artist or when you take a risk on something and it doesn’t turn out exactly how you envisioned and you’re having a hard time yourself seeing the beauty in it, to be able to have a professor who knows you, who looks at your effort and looks at your work and shows you that there is beauty in it when you have a hard time seeing it yourself, is exactly what we aim to do. It’s to help expand their vision, expand a student’s vision, not just for their business, but for who they are as an individual. I think the important thing, you know, I’ve talked about how really nothing I’ve ever really done has turned out how I had envisioned it. But the vision is so important because the vision drives you. So it’s the difference between running towards something that you want so bad and running away from something you’re afraid of. Either way you’re running, but I prefer to run towards things that I want as opposed to the feelings that I have when I’m running away from something I’m afraid of. And so it’s really important to have vision and it’s really important to think big and to be idealistic about it. And that will really drive you in the struggles or the challenges that you have to overcome. If you keep an eye on that vision that you have, it can motivate you through the tough times. But then when you kind of get to the quote-unquote end goal, and it isn’t what you had envisioned, that can be a bit of a letdown. And when you’ve been so focused for so long, as an individual, you may have a really hard time recognizing the beauty in what you produced. And so having been there, and all of our professors on our We’ve all had those experiences and we are able to guide our students and to sort of be, I guess, a calming influence and to be a reassurance to say, you know what, it’s okay. This doesn’t make you a failure. This isn’t, you know, this is a normal part of progression and we are here with you and we know that you can do this. And you know, that’s something you can take online courses and you can read magazines and you can find all kinds of information all over the place, but to have somebody who’s been there, who knows the path, and who knows you and is able to reassure you on that path, it can’t be replaced.

Sam Demma
I think back to the teachers in my self-belief, in my journey, in taking the next step. Sometimes the self-doubt that I had would freeze me. And it’s like, you know, with the analogy of being frozen in a block of ice, the self-belief from someone else like melts the block and allows you to keep walking forward. So I even think back to my coaches in sport that had a similar impact on me. My parents had a big impact, but sometimes we believe the people that love us are biased, and no matter what, they’re gonna tell us that they love us and believe in us. But when you hear it from another adult or human in your life who’s not connected to you that closely at the beginning, it really makes a difference and an impact. Can you think of an example where a professor had an impact on your life like that or when you had an impact like that on a student?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Yeah, a professor that’s had an impact, oh my goodness. It’s funny because, you know, it’s in the little things and I think sometimes, I know in the professors and the teachers that really had, that I’m thinking of right off the bat, they probably don’t even realize. Yeah. Oh it was maybe just something they said at the right time and the right moment or just the look or just a feeling that you get or that I got. But yeah I had, yeah I’ve had, I don’t know it’s hard for me to. It’s tough to bring yourself back. Yeah, yeah I’ve had some, I had a professor who I just adored. And at that point in time, I had changed schools. I got married. I had been going to school in the US. And then I got married and came back to Canada and transferred my credits here. And so I was just there for one year. And I felt a little like a duck out of water because I was married and I was 20 and most of the people around me were not in that place in their life. And so I kind of felt a little bit like I didn’t belong. But this professor had a real impact on me. She had a warmth, she had a vision. She just, you know, I don’t know, it was just the way she was. And so years later, and so I did a lot with her, she was running some special programs that I ended up helping with and having some really beautiful experiences helping with those programs in recreation. And later on in my schooling, as I said, I went back to school and I was at this conference with all of these different recreation professionals and kinesiologists, because that’s what I was doing. And this woman, there’s hundreds of people there, and this woman walks past me, and I just felt this warmth. And I looked at her as she walked past and I went, I know her. I just felt this love. And it turned out it was her from my undergrad. And I didn’t really remember her name. I didn’t remember anything specific that she had, any specific time that the two of us had had together. But just all those feelings came back. You know, they say that you might forget what somebody says, you forget what they do, but you never forget how they make you feel. And that was that moment for me. So here I had come full circle 20 years later, 18 years later, and this woman, all she had to do was walk by me and all of those feelings came back. for my, for my, my defense, when I defended my thesis. And again, she was just such a light. So yeah, so that was, that was somebody who had a big impact on me and it was kind of beautiful that it came full circle that way. And it’s wild to think that sometimes the educators

Sam Demma
that have the biggest impact have no idea that they’re making that significant impact. I recently did a speech for the YMCA in Burlington and Brantford and Hamilton area, and there was 300 early childhood educators. And I was thinking about, like, what could I share with them to help them realize that they’re making such a big difference? And I told this story of a gentleman I met in Medicine Hat, Alberta, at 6 a.m. in the middle of the winter, who was outside with a leaf blower.

Sam Demma
And I was thinking to myself,

Sam Demma
What is this guy doing with a leaf blower in the middle of the winter? And I was getting up, I was getting up early to go to a conference. And then I realized he was using the leaf blower to blow snow off of every single car in the drive, in the parking lot. And that was a part of his job at the hotel. And I couldn’t help but think that this guy was gonna clear every single person’s car while they all slept and everyone’s going to wake up with a clear dash and have no idea that this man spent a couple hours blowing the snow off of their windshield. And it made me think of people in education who make so many choices to impact other human beings but sometimes have no idea the impact they’re creating. Same way that your professor had no idea the impact she had on you, and you might not have an idea of the impact that you have on the students in your classroom. So thank you for the work that you do in education. And if there’s an educator listening who wants to connect with you and ask questions or collaborate on a cool idea, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Keri-Ellen Walcer
Well, they can email me, and usually check my email two times a day. So do you want me to say what my email address is or you just put it in the show notes?

Sam Demma
I’ll put it in the show notes for all the people. (keri-ellen.walcer@durhamcollege.ca). And I highly recommend everyone, please check out the weekend program. It’s super impactful, especially for the students in your school who may be looking to take a slightly different path. Keri-Ellen Walcer, this was such an amazing conversation. I feel refreshed. Thank you for taking the time to chat and I look forward to connecting again sometime soon.

Keri-Ellen Walcer
All right. All right. Thank you so much.

Join the Educator Network and connect with Keri-Ellen Walcer

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

September 8, 2023 by Entrepreneur Experiential Learning Founder and CEO Professor Student Success Teachers 0

Dr. Quintin Shepherd – Superintendent of the Victoria Independent School District and Adjunct Faculty at the University of Houston, Victoria

Dr. Quintin Shepherd - Superintendent of the Victoria Independent School District and Adjunct Faculty at the University of Houston, Victoria
About Dr. Quintin Shepherd

Dr. Shepherd (@QShepherd) is in his fourth year as Superintendent for the Victoria Independent School District. When he came to Victoria, his first priority was to listen to the voice of the community, parents, staff, and students.

From that, he invited those stakeholders to be a part of shaping the future of the District. Members of those groups have been, and continue to, work collaboratively with District leadership to make recommendations as we build that future to meet the current and future needs of Victoria students and the community.

Dr. Shepherd also serves as Adjunct Faculty at the University of Houston, Victoria. Recently, Dr. Shepherd published the popular “The Secret to Transformational Leadership.”

Connect with Quintin: Email | LinkedIn | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Victoria Independent School District

University of Houston

The Secret to Transformational Leadership Book

P-Tech Schools

Advanced Placement

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma (00:00):

Welcome back to the high performing educator podcast. This is your host and youth speaker, Sam Demma. The High Performing Educator was created to provide you with opportunities for personal development directly from your colleagues and peers. Each episode is like sitting face to face with a colleague in education at an amazing conference and chatting about their best practices, their learnings, their philosophies, and the mindset shifts that allow them to be successful in education today. If you enjoy these episodes that air Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, each week, please consider leaving a rating on the show on iTunes, so more educators can find it. And if you would like to receive emails that include inspiring videos for your students and actionable ideas for yourself and your staff, please visit www.highperformingeducator.com. Sign up, join the network, and I will see you on the other side of this conversation. Welcome back to the High Performing Educator podcast.

Sam Demma (00:59):

This is your host and youth speaker, Sam Demma. Today’s special guest is Dr. Quintin Shepherd.. Dr. Shepherd is in his fourth year as superintendent for the Victoria Independent School District. When he came to Victoria, his first priority was to listen to the voice of the community, parents, staff, and students. From that, he invited those stakeholders to be part of shaping the future of the district, which you’ll hear all about in today’s interview. Members of those groups have been and continue to work collaboratively with district leadership to make recommendations as we begin building that future to meet the current and future needs of Victoria students and the community. Dr. Shepherd also serves as adjunct faculty at University of Houston, Victoria. And recently, Dr. Shepherd published the popular book, the secret to transformational leadership, which we will talk a lot about today. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Shepherd and I will see you on the other side. Welcome back to another episode of the High Performing Educator podcast. This is your host and youth speaker, Sam Demma. Today we are joined by Dr. Quintin Shepherd from San Antonio, Texas,. Quintin, please start by introducing yourself.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (02:12):

<Laugh> my name is Quintin Shepherd. I’m currently in San Antonio by I, I, I reside in Victoria, which is a few hours east of here, southeast of here. I’ve been a superintendent for 18 years in three different states. Prior to that, I was a high school principal. Before that I was an elementary principal and, and what seems like almost a lifetime ago, I got to teach pre-K through 12th grade music every day, and it was awesome. Seeing the three year olds all the way up through the 18 year olds. I guess the other thing that’s that’s relevant is in my spare time, I, I teach at the University and I get to teach ed leadership for folks who are aspiring to be principals or, or superintendents and I also get to teach school law.

Sam Demma (02:53):

When did you realize growing up as a youngster, that education was gonna be the pathway you would take in the future?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (03:01):

One of my, one of my favorite sayings of all time is that little boys grow up to do what their mothers want them to do, but they do it in a way that their fathers would’ve done it <laugh>, which I think is like appropriate for a lot of men that I know. My mom was a school teacher. My grandfather actually her, her, her dad, he had an eighth grade education and lived on a farm, a working farm, and he was a school custodian. So he would get up at four o’clock in the morning and do chores, and then he’d go off and be a school custodian all day and then come home in the evening and do chores. And so I guess education is sort of in my blood. And like I said, my mom was a teacher taught kindergarten for a number of years, almost her entire career.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (03:42):

And I sort of resisted the call into education, but I think it was a foregone conclusion that I was gonna get into education. And shortly after I started as a teacher, I came to realize that there’s really only two groups of people who work in schools. There are those who teach, and there are those who support teachers. And I was a pretty good teacher. I think I was a pretty good teacher, but I wasn’t my mom, like my mom was an amazing teacher. She was one of these walk on water teachers. And I recognized that my calling and education was to be the number one chief supporter of teachers, and to try to make their job as easy as possible, try to keep the, you know, the, the politics away from the classroom and the, and, you know, do what I could to support, support what needs to happen in the classroom. And that’s where I found my calling.

Sam Demma (04:29):

You realize education is gonna be your pathway. What did the journey look like from that moment forward?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (04:37):

It was when you’re first outta college, it’s you know, you, you’re, you’re trying to sort out what direction is, is, is your life gonna take? And at the time applied for just about every job you could, you could imagine. And I landed in a small country school in rural Illinois, and it was, it was from there it’s, it’s a matter of one foot in front of the other, every step along the way. It’s, it’s recognizing that, you know, you, you have this dream and you have this vision and you want things to go a certain way, but sometimes life doesn’t see it that way. And sometimes life throws the opportunities that you didn’t see coming curve balls, for instance. And so you, you take a swing at every one of those and you miss some, you miss a lot of them, but then some of them you hit and it’s, it’s things like that.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (05:19):

That’s, that’s how I ended up at Victoria, Texas. Quite frankly, I was a superintendent in Illinois for a number of years. And then I moved to Iowa and, you know, things were going along splendidly and, and this opportunity came up to come down and meet the school board in Victoria, Texas. And you swing it, you swing at the pictures that are thrown at you. And it, it was the best move I could have possibly made. I’m doing some of the best work of my life and, and, and really feeling great about, you know, the work that’s happening.

Sam Demma (05:47):

Tell, tell us a little bit about why you’re in San Antonio, Texas right now. I know we talked about it before the podcast started, but what’s going on?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (05:55):

Yeah, so summer for for school administrators, a and for school board members, we try to focus on some pretty deep learning. So right now what’s going on in San Antonio is a statewide Texas conference for school board members. It’s designed for school board members, TAs V, Texas association of school boards. And it’s called the summer summer leadership Institute. And so school board members from all over the state of Texas come together for this conference and do some pretty intense learning for, for three days, which seems kind of unremarkable because educators do it all the time. Right. But you have to remember, these are volunteers. Yeah. These are people who have real jobs that pay real money, that they need to support their families. And they choose to come here for three days during the summer to keep up their learning. And that’s just a Testament to, you know, how, how committed they are to making sure that we have great public schools. And I just, so, so for a superintendent to be here and support their board, it’s just, it’s, it’s an awesome experience.

Sam Demma (06:49):

You mentioned that you realized shortly into your journey in education, that leadership was going to be your calling, or should I say supporting teachers and being the chief supporting officer <laugh>. I love that phrase. Yeah. When you realized that, what transition did you make and what started your deep interest and passion for leadership itself?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (07:13):

So my passion for leadership was, was really just this recognition that pretty, pretty soon after I started as a principal. I mean, when you’re doing the job as a principal, essentially, there’s a couple of things I’m gonna say. The first part is it’s a performance, just like when you first started as a teacher, like the first day in the classroom in front of kids, <laugh>, you’re performing a role in your mind, you know, what a teacher should be doing and what they should look like and how they should dress and so on and so forth. And you’re performing and you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re just doing the best you can. And and I recognize that the same is true for principles that when you start as a principal, there’s no, you’re, you’re playing by the rules as they’re handed to you.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (07:54):

Right. And so you do what your principal did or what the principal before you did. And that’s how a lot of leadership training takes place is by mimicry. Frankly. And then I, I became a superintendent and same thing, same exact thing. And after a year or two of figuring out how to play the game by the rules, as they’re handed to you, then you come to realize this, the same thing as a teacher, it’s true for a superintendent that maybe these rules aren’t right for me. Mm. Like they’re not the way that I’m supposed to be doing it. And the best way to describe it is, is it was like a suit that didn’t fit. Mm. And so start to change rules a little bit and say, look, we can do this thing differently. And when I started to do that, I, I came up on this, this recognition that I think a lot of how we’re doing public school leadership were just doing it wrong, quite frankly, mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (08:46):

And I couldn’t articulate it any better than that at the time. But I just felt like when I was reaching out to my community or when I was reaching out to my teachers, it just wasn’t working. I didn’t feel like I was connected to them because we’re gonna adopt a new curriculum here. We went out and did all this research. Here’s a curriculum, and we need you to do the summer professional development or training or whatever. And it’s like, it falls flat on its face. And you start to hear that the, you know, district office is disconnected from what’s happening in the classroom. And like all these things that, you know, it’s, it’s happens everywhere in education, and this is fairly, fairly commonplace. And so I started to flip the paradigm on its head as far as how I do leadership. And when I, when I came to recognize that is as a superintendent, there’s only two types of decisions that ever come to my desk. They’re either complicated or they’re complex. Now, if they’re complicated, there’s just one right. Answer. There’s one way to do it. So like a math problem, they’re complicated, right? Disassembling an aircraft engine and putting it back together. That’s complicated. Like, I’m not gonna ask you do that. Right. I’m guessing you, you’re not an aerospace engineer.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (09:53):

Complex is inherently unknowable complex. Doesn’t have one right answer. Mm. So what’s the best way to educate kids during a pandemic? Well, that’s a complex question. So what I committed to in my leadership is that anytime I’m faced with a complex issue, I will go to the people who are gonna be most impacted by that decision and give them the greatest voice. Mm. So for instance, with the pandemic, for a pandemic response plan, we went to the teachers first and we said, what would you do? How would you address this problem? And so we had about 700 teachers help us write our pandemic response plan had about 500 kids had over a thousand community members. So imagine this over 2000 people, co-authored this document. And we literally took their language and put it into the document. And then when we represented it to the community, the community’s response isn’t to judge the superintendent on his ability to write a pandemic response plan. Cause I didn’t write it. Yeah. The community says, we wrote this and this is pretty freaking awesome. Let’s get the work. And so really the, the leadership journey for me has been around. That’s how you support teachers, you support teachers by giving ’em a bigger voice in the complex issues that are facing education.

Sam Demma (11:03):

What an awesome way to craft a response plan. I would assume other districts heard about the success and maybe ask, how the heck did you facilitate this? Like, can you give me an, an idea of how long it took to craft that or how quick the turnaround was? And were there any challenges through the process?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (11:23):

It was couple, two or three weeks, at least from start to finish, which seems remarkably fast, but essentially, and we were doing it during the pandemic, which remember that meant that we were having these mega zoom meetings of 5, 6, 700 people at a time. Wow. And when we went to the students, that was crazy. I mean, imagine putting 500 middle school students in one zoom <laugh> and we did crazy, right. I mean, but we, we did it. And part of what we, part of what we did was not just let somebody come off mute that wouldn’t make any sense at all. What we wanted to do was crowdsource good ideas. So we’re, we worked with a company called thought exchange and we pitched the question to our kids and to our teachers. And, and there were lots of different questions, but as an example, what things should we focus on?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (12:06):

So that students have access to technology or what are biggest barriers to technology. And then every single teacher of the 700 who logged on, had a chance to respond. And then they had a chance to read the other 699 teachers. Wow. And what they said, and they could give them stars. So they were like, oh, that’s really, really smart. I didn’t think about that. Or no, that’s kind of dumb. We don’t need you to think about that. And it doesn’t matter because the whole thing’s anonymous. But by doing that then of 700 people who shared over a thousand thoughts, the, the smartest in the room go to the top, the stuff we should most focus on because they got the most stars. So that’s literally crowdsourcing great ideas. And so that was the language say top 15, 20%. That was the language that we then put in the pandemic response plan.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (12:51):

And then when we went to their students, we started with that and said, okay, students, this is what the teachers have said, what are your thoughts and questions about that? And then we crowdsourced that, right. And made the document that much more robust. So it took on like almost this three dimensional that shape. And then when we had done that, since we knew the kids were gonna be probably second most impacted by its decisions, parents would be third, most impacted. So then we went to the parents’ third and said, okay, now we’ve had teachers and students, what are your thoughts and questions? Mm, well then it turned into a whole other conversation about what needs to happen at home to support learning. So Sam, it was just this really interesting, fast and iterative process where we were constantly adapting and evolving in a, in a really rapid cycle. And we do that for any, anything that’s complex, which could be bonds or redistricting or closing schools. I mean, we’ve tackled some things that typically get lots of people fired and communities in an uproar and in our community largely says, Hey, thanks for giving me a voice in the process. This has been awesome.

Sam Demma (13:52):

I’m thinking it would’ve been really nice if I interviewed you two years ago. <Laugh> <laugh> because this, I mean, the cool thing is that this process is something that could be repeated with tons of complex issues. But I know being in Canada, there were so many school districts and superintendents struggling to find a way to create a really great response to the COVID pandemic. And in Canada, it was really bad. Like we, you know, everything shut down and stayed, shut down for a very long time. Students fell behind on learning. You know,

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (14:27):

Well, but even, even now though, I mean, we’re, as we’re coming out of the pandemic, this is still like, we’re doing the exact same thing now. But the new question is what things should we do to post the learning gap for those students who are behind more importantly, like there’s, there’s so many iterations on this. We’re also talking about what sorts of things should we focus on when it comes to student wellbeing and mental health and we were, we’re going directly to the kids. Nice. And so, so I’m, we’re actually kicking off. I’ve been told that we’re kicking off the largest participatory budgeting experiment in the history of the United States. Wow. We set aside 5 million of our Sr funding and we’re, we’re literally gonna go to each of our high schools and say here’s $500,000. And we want it to focus on student mental wellness and mental health.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (15:12):

And 250,000 is carved out for the kids themselves. So we’re basically gonna take this pile of cash to our high school students and say, how would you spend this money in a way that helps us solve the mental health crisis? So like the timing couldn’t even be better to share ideas like this, because I think this idea about mental health or closing achievement gaps or learning gaps, or what students are worried about as they transition into college or on and on and on the number of questions out there is endless. And what, what better time to just tackle them

Sam Demma (15:42):

Tackling tough questions over the past two years sounds like something you’ve done a lot of, and I’m sure it consumes a ton of your time. You also found the time to write a book <laugh> like, tell me, tell me about it, what inspired it? And what’s it all about?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (15:57):

I think the, the book had been on my mind for about a decade, as I said previously, I I’ve just, you know, been doing D leadership differently and, and seeing others, I’m not the only one doing it this way. Yeah. But seeing others do leadership differently, but that we lack maybe a common language around what it is that we’re doing and how we’re doing it. And so I’d been kicking around this idea of, of writing a book for several years, the pandemic just presented itself as a great opportunity to sit down and actually get my thoughts down on paper and or digitally, I guess <laugh> dating myself a bit. But, but essentially I wanted to make it very approachable. Like I tried to make this because if, if you’re steeped in leadership theory, then you can, you can, you know, see transactional versus transformational leadership in this book.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (16:42):

Or you can see technical versus adaptive, the work of Hz and Linsky, or you can see elements of power. I talk about power and Ross’s notion of power and so on, so forth, but that’s all the theory. That’s all the stuff that leaders learn, you know, as they go through university, I wanted to just make this approachable by saying, well, what’s common language. That’s that differentiates complicated versus complex. And it’s interesting because they’re almost two completely different. They’re two completely different languages. And the one that I like to use to explain it is so applicable at the classroom level, but it’s also about the leadership level. Is that a complicated way to look at your classroom is to tell the students, this is what I want from you because it assumes there’s one right answer, right? Mm. Or there’s a way to do this, and this is what I want from you.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (17:27):

And so we tell them, and when you’re in complicated, it’s all about judgment. So this is what I want from you. And if you don’t deliver it for me, I’m gonna judge you and you’re gonna be strong, or you’re gonna be weak, but either way, you’re fragile because it’s always complicated. And that’s how this works. And that’s what I, if a stands up in front of group of students and resists the urge to say, this is what I want want from you. And then they can focus on this is what I want for you. Mm

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (17:54):

Oh. Now that’s a conversation. What I want for you is to have a sense of autonomy. I want for you to have a sense that you’ve mastered the content I want for you, the opportunity to have worked in the best team that you’ve ever worked on to create this project. Well, that’s complex. There’s not one right answer. There’s not one way to do it. And the nice part about that is it resists judgment. I want these things for you. How can we make that happen? And so what I’m asking you to do is to suffer. I’m asking you to share your suffering. Like, I don’t know how to approach this project. I don’t know if I can work with this team. Awesome. So now what we’re doing is we’re in compassionate versus competent, right? And the, and that’s the juxtaposition because compassion, if you break that word down, passion is to suffer.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (18:37):

Compassion is to suffer with mm it’s. Empathy plus action. And so I, I try to create the language that says, look, you get whatever you’re asking for. Based on the language you use and too many leaders stand up and they use complicated language when they’re actually trying to do transformative and complex work. And as a result of that, the community has been trained to recognize complicated language to mean, oh, you want us to judge you <laugh> oh, so you wrote your pandemic response plan. Well, I think it sucks. I went to Google and this is like some other school district that did something. And so I’m like, well, use the right language, use the right language.

Sam Demma (19:10):

How long did it take to crystallize the ideas and get the book on paper? What was the start to finish process like?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (19:18):

It was just about a year start to finish. It was, I had taken a couple of false starts before, and then I met Sarah who helped me with the book, pulling it together and doing some of the vignettes. And what have you, Sarah Williamson. And she just helped me put together a structure. What I really needed is as I, as I shared sort of my background as a superintendent and I’m teaching university and so on and so forth, I, I, I stay sort of busy, I think is the word for it. And she, she helped me set up a timeline to say, no, you’re gonna sit down. You’re gonna, you’re gonna write, and you’re gonna turn these in. And these you deadlines and so and so forth. And so having an accountability partner really helped me. And I think the other thing that helped me, and this was a, this was a light bulb moment for me, I’ve, you know, over 40 years old and have had a pretty successful life, but just had this amazing light, light bulb moment that will transform every decision in every goal that I make for the rest of my life, which is the recognition that all of us have been taught to set goals.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (20:12):

Right. And so we try to create these goal habits, but the truth is that most of us truthfully fail at most of our goals. Like I would say the failure rate is probably close to 90, 95%. And it makes sense because we’ve designed our entire lives around the life that we’re living right now this very second. And if you set a goal that’s outside of that life, that you’re living a hundred percent of your life is working against that goal. Right? And so you’re, you’re destined to fail when you have goal based habits. And if on my goal based habit was to write, I was probably gonna fail. And then if you flip that goal based habit with something that’s completely different. So I’m gonna take a quick aside to prove a point here. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I’m guessing that every day when you wake up, you brush your teeth.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (20:59):

I do. It doesn’t matter if you’re on the road. It doesn’t matter if you go visit your parents’ house, it doesn’t matter if you’re visiting a friend. It doesn’t matter if you’re home, you brush your teeth every day, right? You take a shower every day. Mm. And this is not a goal based habit. This is an identity based habit. Like, I don’t wanna have the identity of someone who has a bad breath or who stinks, right? Yeah. So I have an identity based habit. And the aha for me was, oh, no, no, no. I want to set my identity as someone who is a writer. So what does a writer do? Oh, well, a writer would get up every morning and they would write because they’re a writer and they would set aside a place in their house where they’re gonna do their writing and they’re gonna do this.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (21:38):

And all of a sudden these identity based habits. And then I never had to create a goal. I never had to carve out space. I never had to make the effort because I was living the identity of being a writer. And it, it kind of just took care of itself. And so like now I’m like, why have we not talked about this for fitness or health or nutrition or yeah. Getting a doctorate or just about anything goal or even teaching. If we try to have students have goal based behaviors to study versus identity based behaviors of, I am a scholar and a learner,

Sam Demma (22:07):

It sounds like you identify as a reader as well. I first learned about identity based goal setting in James Clear’s book, atomic habits. Yeah. It really resonated with me and changed the way that I think about things. I actually use a similar analogy. When I talk about brushing your teeth as a way to prove that we are never too busy when someone gives me the objection that I’m sorry, I can’t take this or do this. It’s because I’m too busy. What I actually start to understand is that even if I have the most busy day of my life, I still brush my teeth before I go to bed one, because it’s a part of my identity, but two, because it’s something that I prioritize right. It’s a priority. So if someone tells me they’re too busy, it just means that the thing that I’m asking them for is not of the similar priority as a task they’re already doing, or even more priority that they would switch their schedule for it.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (22:58):

That’s, that’s a very polite way of saying it. I think a little bit more harshly, they would say it is when somebody says I don’t have time valuable is I don’t care <laugh>

Sam Demma (23:09):

Yeah. Just of no value to me. <Laugh> that’s right.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (23:12):

That’s

Sam Demma (23:12):

Right. So am I correct in assuming that you like reading and like constant learning?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (23:20):

Yeah. I’m a, I’m a fairly voracious reader. I work with an executive coach and I, I didn’t realize this, but she had been in our conversations over the course of this past year. Just every time I referenced the book, kinda kicking it off or so, and I I’ve come to the I’ve come to the assumption that I read between 40 and 60 books a year on average. So yeah, pretty, pretty avid reader.

Sam Demma (23:39):

What are some of the resources that, of course your own book is gonna be a, an amazing one and teachers should consider picking it up, which books have you consumed or resources in general that have helped you develop yourself, turn into the leader you are today that you think other educators would benefit from consuming.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (23:57):

So for me on my leadership journey, lots of leadership biography, I take, I take great inspiration from leadership biography. So I read a lot of leadership biography. I also read a great deal of innovation work on innovation, anybody who’s writing about adaptive innovation and creativity, but specifically I stay away from education. Believe it or not, because I think that we, I think we understand creativity or entrepreneurship or innovation, but we have a, a somewhat slanted view of it. I think there’s a much better view view of innovation and creativity that comes from the business world. So I’m always kind of scouring for what’s out there in the business world, in that area. And I’ve learned a ton and I brought to, to education specifically in our space as we, when I got to Victoria, we didn’t have a department of innovation. We now have a department of innovation with the whole we’ve written, you know, approximately 15 million in grant funding every year. Wow. Just from the department of innovation alone. And it’s transformed the way we, you know, work with some of our schools, but virtually everything I learned about innovation, I learned outside of education and just applied to education.

Sam Demma (25:02):

Very cool. Speaking of innovation, creativity moving forward, what are some of the things you are working on right now with your school board school districts, superintendents that you’re excited about in the coming years or next next fall?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (25:20):

So, so I think that some of the stuff that I’m working on is obviously getting the message of this book out. Like, and that’s actually, I’m focused on that and getting this message out there because I think I have something that people can understand and I love to do it in medium size groups or even large group formats. Where, where we create, I create this space called house of genius. And I just, it rather than tell people about it, we actually do it like whatever group I happen to be in front of. We just solve a massively complex issue for that group right there in the room, and then we solve it and we go through it and it only takes, you know, 40, 45 minutes, depending on what we’re talking about. And then I back away from that and I talk through, well, this is how we did it.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (25:58):

This was the language. And this was the framework, and this is all the stuff from the book, but you just experienced it. You just lived it and you can live it, you know, any way you want to. So that’s, that’s kind of fun. And I’m excited about doing that in, in our district. We’ve launched a number of pathways. So for instance, our kids essentially we’re transforming the, the simple way of talking about it is that we’re trying to walk away from this notion of elementary, middle, and high school. Now let’s still have elementary schools, middle schools and high schools. Everybody’s gonna have elementary, middle, and high school. That’s not gonna change because that’s the way education works. But let’s just talk about what elementary school really should be right now. Elementary school. If you think about it is all about exposure. Mm.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (26:38):

Exposing kids to different learning pathways, different learning styles, different interests, trying to find their genius all about exposing, exposing, exposing, and then middle school. Once kids start to figure out what they’re good at and what they like and how they like to learn you move from exposure to experience that’s middle school. So how do you experience things like internships or job shadows, or how do you experience a, a profession or a unique way of learning? We, we just launched one of our stem middle schools just this last year. So we have a stem based middle school. That’s open enrollment for any kid that wants to go there. We have a project based learning school as well, but it’s all about exposure experience and then rethinking high school as pursuit. So pursuit means like I know I’m college or university bound, so this is the courses I need to take and so on and so forth.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (27:23):

So for our district, but that means more kids taking AP than ever in the history of the district. And the scores are higher, more kids taking dual credit than ever in the history of the district than their scores are higher. But we also have more kids doing CTE coursework, cuz they want to go right into the world of work. Nice. And so we’re trying to create pursuit opportunities and we’ve launched several Ptech high schools so that kids can their associates degree as, as they, as they move forward on their launch, which is pretty cool. And we’re all about this one simple, simple, simple concept, and that’s the concept of the, and the Amper sign, right? And so when you think about the Amper sand and it’s become a sign for our district, we even have it on shirts and stuff, all kinds of stuff. But essentially our goal is that every student finds their and which is a way of saying, we want you to find your genius, right? And we also want to guarantee that every single student who walks across the graduation stage has a high school diploma and university acceptance letter, military recruitment letter, or industry certification. So that on Monday morning they have work, they have work waiting for him. And we’re just over 92% right now of our high school, graduating seniors who graduate with their aunt. I’m not gonna quit until a hundred percent. I’m not gonna quit until I can guarantee parents a hundred percent successful launch rate.

Sam Demma (28:36):

Wow. That’s awesome. How many students are there in the district or the, I guess the area in total?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (28:41):

Just under 14,000.

Sam Demma (28:43):

Wow. That’s a, that’s a success story in itself. Yeah, on a large scale, it seems like the programs, ideas that are being implemented are having massive success. I want to talk about for just a moment a story of how something someone did in a school, maybe yourself or someone, you know, had a serious impact on one individual. And the reason I know sometimes it’s hard to remember these stories, but there’s probably hundreds on them. Oh, I’ve got one. Yeah. the reason I ask you to share it is because when teachers are feeling burnt out, sometimes it’s because they’ve forgotten why they even started this work in the first place. And I think stories of genuine impact relight that fire and helped them remember why they got into this profession anyway. So please feel free to share. You can change your name if it’s a serious story. Just for privacy.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (29:31):

I love, I love the story. It gives me cause sometimes when I tell it I get goosebumps and sometimes when I tell I can’t help, but cry. So in the, in the, at the start of this last school year, one of our middle schools was invested with mold and we didn’t have an extra facility. So we had to pull every one of our middle schools out of this kids out of this campus. And we needed to put ’em somewhere. And the only facility that we had available was all our alternative high school, which is a smaller, much smaller campus, but we just had to have a place to put the kids, but that displaced the alternative high school. So alternative high school, these are kids who are in credit recovery. These are kids who are disciplined placement. So they’re, they’re essentially on the dropout track.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (30:10):

Mm. These are students who failed out of traditional high school. They have very little credits or no credits and they’re in a dropout track and we’re just trying to get ’em to the graduation stage. And so we, we went to our, some of our community partners and we said, look, what if we could give these kids the golden ticket of a lifetime and a fresh start? Hmm. And if we can help these kids in a way that we’ve never helped them before, by giving them unprecedented levels of support, giving every one of them, an academic and life success coach. And could we put 120 of these students on the community college campus? Can we rent rooms from you? And so the community college president said, sure, this is interesting. I’m, I’m, I’m up for this so that they’re going to community college. Now these are kids on the dropout track.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (30:56):

These are, these are kids who failed out of traditional high school with zero credits. And so then our next wonder question, cuz I love wonder questions is I wonder what would happen if we help these kids apply for college? And I wonder what would happen if we gave ’em a success coach and you know what, I wonder what would happen if we we went ahead and enrolled them in a class just to see what happens. And so we we were very slow and deliberate and thoughtful and all the great things to happen. But outta the hundred 20 students who were on that dropout track 120 of them, a hundred percent successfully enrolled in college and passed their first collegiate course. Wow. And they’re all gonna graduate high school and they’re all college bound, 100% of kids who were on the dropout track.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (31:40):

And so we got to take them to a school board thing in February, which for the entire state of Texas. And so we took seven of the kids from that group to give a presentation. And there was one gal who stood up in front of that group. And she said, when I was a sophomore, I had a baby out of wedlock. So I was a single mother and I had approximately zero credits in high school. And she said, and I am now a college student. Wow. That’s amazing. Our success rate with our kids is so great. This is a, a great statistic. I’ll leave you with a statistic and it’s connected to dropouts, but it’s with homeless students. So we have hundreds of homeless students in Victoria Texas. And if you happen to be a homeless student and unhoused student in Victoria and you go to our schools, your chances of graduating high school are actually better than if you went to any school, anywhere else in the entire state of Texas, our homeless, our homeless student graduation rate is higher than the average for the state of Texas.

Sam Demma (32:42):

Wow. I I’m wondering, you mentioned success. Coaches who are the people that would be paired up with a student in that program to help them apply for college and you know, pass.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (32:54):

So we actually went to the community college counselor structure. So they, they already have academic coaches and support and so on and so forth. You know how community college works. Like there’s all this support structure in place. Yeah. Yeah. We’re like, let’s fold that over to the high school and pull kids up rather than push them.

Sam Demma (33:10):

Cool.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (33:12):

It worked like, who knew, we didn’t know it was gonna work, but that’s what innovation’s all about. Like try crazy stuff. And so we tried it and it worked,

Sam Demma (33:20):

It sounds like innovations in your experience. Start with the, I wonder questions. Is that something you explore a lot?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (33:27):

Yeah. We talk about it all the time. It’s either I wonder. Or what if those are the two best sentence starters.

Sam Demma (33:32):

Lovely, cool, cool. Well, we’re getting close to the end of the podcast here. This has been a phenomenal conversation because we’re close to game seven and the NBA finals. I wanted to play some throwback music. <Laugh> what we’re about to do is do a quick five rapid questions. Are you ready?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (33:56):

I’m ready?

Sam Demma (33:58):

Question number one. <Laugh> question number one is what is the best advice you’ve ever personally received?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (34:07):

Oh, wow. Best advice. Yeah. It’s it’s so cliche never give up,

Sam Demma (34:12):

Love it. What is the I’m putting you on the spot here? What is the worst advice you’ve ever received?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (34:20):

Worst. <Laugh> the worst advice I forgot was go to medical school. <Laugh>

Sam Demma (34:25):

<Laugh> Hey, you have to, you have to know your path, right?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (34:28):

That’s right.

Sam Demma (34:29):

<Laugh> I like that. If you could have everyone on the planet have to follow this one rule the way they live their life, what would the one rule be that everyone would have to follow? Non-Negotiable

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (34:45):

Start with vulnerability.

Sam Demma (34:47):

Mm, love it. If you could travel back in time and speak to Quentin, when he was just starting in education, what would you have told your younger self that you thought would’ve been helpful?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (35:01):

Don’t don’t lose hope.

Sam Demma (35:04):

Final question. If someone wants to buy your book, reach out and ask you a question, what would be the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (35:11):

So they can buy the book through amazon. Easily found, it’s the secret for secret to transformational leadership, or they can go to our website; compassionate leadership. And I’m sure you can put that in the, in the talking notes for sure. Yep. That’s and that’s the best way to reach out to us.

Sam Demma (35:27):

Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you and meet you. I don’t think this will be our last conversation. Keep doing amazing work and have an amazing summer.

Dr. Quintin Shepherd (35:40):

Thank you, sir. Great to talk with you. Thanks Sam.

Sam Demma (35:43):

Hey, it’s Sam again. I hope you enjoyed that amazing conversation on the high performing educator podcast. If you or someone, you know, deserves some extra recognition and appreciation for the work they do in education, please consider applying or nominating them for the high performing educator awards, go to www.highperformingeducator.com/award. You can also find the link in the show notes. I’m super excited to spotlight and feature 20 people in 2022. And I’m hoping you or someone, you know, can be one of those educators. I’ll talk to you on the next episode, all the best.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Quintin Shepherd

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

September 9, 2022 by Department Head Experiential Learning Principals Professor Student Activity Director Student Leadership Student Success Superintendent 0

Phebe Lam – Associate Vice-President, Student Experience UWindsor (Acting) 

Phebe Lam - Associate Vice-President, Student Experience at UWindsor
About Phebe Lam

UWindsor alumna Phebe Lam (@Phebe_Lam) (BSc 1995, BA 1997) began a two-year appointment as acting associate vice-president, student experience, on March 22. Dr. Lam earned master’s and doctoral degrees in psychology from Wayne State University and has been teaching at the University of Windsor since 2015.

In addition to teaching the “Mentorship and Learning” course, she has helped to expand the reach of mentorship programs across the Faculty of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences and developed new student advising and support programs, including online projects such as the Pathway to Academic and Student Success peer mentor program and the Reach Virtual Online Peer Mentor Support. Lam has also served several roles in support of the Student Mental Health Strategy and as chair of the Senate Student Caucus.

Connect with Phebe: Email | Twitter | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

BIDE Institute UWindsor

Drew Dudley Leadership Speaker

Wangari Maathai (Environmental Activist)

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma (00:02):
Phebe, welcome to the High Performing Educator podcast. Huge pleasure to have you on the show here, please start by introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about why you’re passionate about the work you do today.


Phebe Lam (00:13):
Well, thank you. Sam, it is, you know, a pleasure to, to be here with you in this moment. And you know, I’m very, very, very grateful for this opportunity to share some of my, my experiences. So my name is Phebe Lam. I by trade I’m a psychologist actually starting off as a educational psychologist. But you know, let’s maybe take a, a few steps back. My undergraduate degree was in, in science and, you know, pre-med, I, you know, thought I wanted to become a doctor. But things didn’t end up that way. I think pretty much within the first week of school, I knew that, you know, there was something else for me and that road you know, was, was something that I might have to, to put aside. And so when I finished my general science degree I switched over and and completed my psychology degree and really felt that that was, you know, you know, my, my true love you know, ever since my first memories as, as a child is, you know, always wondering, you know, why, why did that person say that?


Phebe Lam (01:32):
Or why did that person do that? And we know, you know, psychology is a science of, of human behavior. Right. And so that always fascinating me. And so I was, I was truly in, in the right place in psychology. And so I went on to do my master’s degree in marriage and family psychology at Wayne state university in Detroit, Michigan. And then went on to do my PhD in educational psychology. And so I’m a licensed psychologist in the state of Michigan and practiced there and worked at Wayne state university in the school of medicine for about 15 years in mostly health psychology and also doing in working in a immunology clinic working the specifically, specifically with children, adolescents, and young adults and their families infected and affected with HIV.


Phebe Lam (02:32):
And so that really, you know was the kickstart of many of the things that I’m I’m doing today was from the, those early the experiences working with some amazing clients, amazing families that, that really inspired me to, to, to who I am today. So, and then 2015 I I started working for university of Windsor going right back home, full circle, and working in the faculty of arts, humanities, and social sciences teaching doing administrative work, but working in student support creating initiatives for students for engagement for, for retention. And then also I taught a mentorship and learning course, which also was another moment that sort of redirected my journey in education and really sparked again, a lot of the things that I I’m doing today.


Phebe Lam (03:39):
And so where I’m at now I am in a acting associate vice president role of student experience. And I started that this year actually in March and it’s been quite the journey. So, you know, when you’re least expecting things to happen, they always happen. And I’m very grateful that I had the courage to, to take this on because there’s no looking back and I’m here today and I’m excited and really looking forward to them, many things that I can still do for, for the university community as well as beyond that. So that’s sort of in a nutshell.


Sam Demma (04:28):
That was an awesome response. Let’s backtrack to the transition from medicine to education. How did that transition happen? What prompted you to get into working more so into schools?


Phebe Lam (04:42):
Okay. So you know, I, I’m gonna give a, a little example and I might be dating myself by, by doing this, but that’s okay. I, I own it and I’m proud of it. So back in the sort mid eighties and late eighties, early nineties Kodak, the company had commercials and they were, you know, this Kodak moment, right? And the whole commercial was, you know your true colors, your true colors, you know, let your true colors shine through and, you know take those opportunities. And so throughout my life, I looking back, I had all these sort of codes, exact moments where they, you know, really changed, you know, my direction in, in life. And so so going from, from thinking about a career in medicine to, to education and psychology the turning point if I had to pinpoint was when I almost blew up our science lab because my partner and I, we didn’t know that our buns and burner was on and it was on, and suddenly the the GA at the time said, you know, I think we smell some, some gas and everybody’s looking at each other.


Phebe Lam (06:02):
And I looked at my little buns and burner, and I, I saw that it was indeed on, but with no flame. And so at that moment, we, you know, I kicked into action. I, you know, we turned it off. But inside, there was a moment where I thought, you know what there’s something more, and me sitting in this lab full of anxiety, full of stress, because I didn’t know it was my first year, first lab. I didn’t know where, what I was doing was unsure, but at that moment, because of that, I don’t know if it was the stress. It was that moment where some light turned on and I said, okay, Phoebe you know, hang tight. There’s something out there. And so from there on, I was always looking, always listening, always, you know, trying to you know, maybe you can sum it up as being just curious, curious as to what my journey should be.


Phebe Lam (06:59):
And so, as I was curious, talking to more and more people you know, learning and seeking out mentors it led me to, to hone in on, you know, how I love and I thrive to be in the environment where there is that learner teacher or mentee mentor relationships and, you know, supporting people in their darkest moments really, really touched me. And so then I knew that, you know, psychology and education was something that I wanted to head into. And at that moment, I still didn’t know what, you know, what, where that was going to lead. Right. But I was very open to those opportunities. And and here I am.


Sam Demma (07:48):
Steve jobs has this quote, and I’m gonna read it off of my phone because I shared it on Twitter recently. He said, okay, your work is gonna fill a large part of your life. And the only way to be truly five is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. And if you haven’t found it yet, keep looking, don’t settle. And based on what you just told me, it sounds like that little quote that Steve shared, it was at a 20, a 2005 Stanford commencement address sums up what sounds like your journey in education. It sounds like you were curious to find the thing you loved and that curiosity just kept pulling you forward. Where do you think absolutely. Where do you think that curiosity kind of comes from where you always, some, one that was interested in things growing up or was it cultivated?


Phebe Lam (08:46):
You know, a part of it was always interested, you know, and always curious of the things that I didn’t know. Mm. And very early on my especially my father really instilled in, you know in, in myself the, the desire and that passion to always be curious, you know, always ask questions. And as I’m speaking now, I can’t even think back to my grandparents who, who you know, had also very close relationship with. They would always, you know, we would always talk about or they would share their stories with, with me. And I was always very curious and very good listener. I think I mostly did a lot of listening more than asking questions. I don’t believe that I was that kid that asked a lot of questions. Right. I was always the, the, the observer, the, the listener and, and taking everything in and then, and then reflecting in the processing on that.


Phebe Lam (09:54):
But I, we really enjoyed stories, you know, listening to stories. I mean, that’s how I learn, learn the best. And that’s, you know, part of my teaching is through telling stories and listening to people’s lived experience. Wouldn’t it be great, Sam, if, you know, everybody could write their own story, you know, and we could tap into someone’s journey. And I think about that when I teach, I think about that when I mentoring students and working with students is, you know, taking that time to say, Hey, you know, what is your story? You know, what were your experiences? Because it’s not until I understand and hear those stories that I can be, be here to help support and, and truly understand, and, and, and listen and appreciate where they are in that moment when I’m with them. Yeah. Oh, I hope I answered that question.


Sam Demma (10:50):
You did, you did the importance of stories is connected to this idea of, of the importance of mentorship. I’ve had many mentors in my life who thinking about it now taught me so many things through the sharing of experiences and stories that they went through, which is why I think it’s so important to have somebody in your life who can mentor you, who can have your best interests at, and also be willing to invest some time into sharing some of their own experiences and learnings with you. You are a big fan of mentorship, helped turn it into even like a curriculum. And course, can you talk a little bit about that?


Phebe Lam (11:32):
Absolutely. and, you know before I start talking about it, you know, I use a lot of word interchangeably and I, and, and words are so incredibly important because, you know, I used to think about, you know, the, the education as the learner and the teacher, and now I’m finding because of, you know, that Kodak moment or that opportunity to, to head down you know, teaching this course mentorship and learning has led me to think about, you know, re or unlearning and relearning what education and what teaching really is. And for me teaching is actually mentoring because it’s not, there’s no boundaries. You know, when the class is done where you’re done taking my course, that relationship continues on. And I tell this to my students all the time, even my, anybody who I I’ve ever worked with. And a past teacher or professor you know, Dr.


Phebe Lam (12:35):
Clark Johnson back in my grad school days, he said this to all our students, you know, your tuition with me is good for a lifetime. Hmm. As long as you can find me, I’m here for you. And I offer that to all my students. I mean, you find me, I I’m here to support you. And through the, you know, 20, some odd year as of post-secondary teaching I’ve had students come back to me. I may not remember them you know, but I, you know, I I’m there. And so, okay. So leading into the mentorship. So in 2016 I was given the opportunity to teach a course called mentorship and learning. And it’s a fourth year level class that that teaches third and fourth year students to become mentors in a first year course in the faculty of arts, human to use in, or social sciences.


Phebe Lam (13:36):
And these mentors are in a majors only. So if you’re a psychology major, you would mentor in the first year psychology course. Okay. And so this class actually began in 2005 co-founders Tina Dr. Tina pules and professor Tson bacon. And so they gave me the opportunity to teach this class. I did not know what I was getting myself into. I mean, I did some work with mentoring in HIV where we would have doctors and nurses and staff at the hospital be mentors for, for, for, for children in, in our clinic. But this, you know, teaching mentorship, like I know about mentoring, but, you know, so I kind of just dove to it and said, you know what? I trust that they chose me. And you know, I’m gonna trust this process and I can tell you Sam it has changed my life, you know being a mentor and a mentee.


Phebe Lam (14:41):
It, you know, first year students that come to university is a transition period, and we know that they’re at risk, right. And so having these mentors who are their peers is incredibly important, right. We’ve seen the, the statistics in retention, but more importantly, this class is for these, you know, 25 to 50. Now we have about a hundred students mentors to foster and to to help them to grow in, you know, leadership and becoming mentors for the rest of their lives to seek out mentors to be mentees, but to also be mentors themselves. So, yeah. And and many of the students that I’ve taught over the years you know, they’re working alongside me in the office of student experience even right now. So these are relationships that have continued on. Yeah. And will continue on,


Sam Demma (15:41):
Did the BIDE Institute come to life with students in that class? Or tell me a little bit about the origins of the Biden Institute as well.


Phebe Lam (15:50):
Okay. yes. So the by Institute B I D E stands for belonging, inclusivity, diversity, and equity. And this is a student led student run initiative that focuses on those four pillars, belonging, inclusivity, diversity and equity, and the co-founders of these, this Institute are two two of my students who went through the mentorship and learning program. Cool. And I knew, you know, you know, when you see you know, the potential in, in, in, in students you know, my first, my first, you know, thing to do is to, to grab a hold of them and say, Hey, listen, you, you, you know, this is, this is a great opportunity. And actually they came up with this opportunity or this initiative I said to them, you know, back in may, I said, listen, you know, I wanna do something for the students.


Phebe Lam (16:50):
And, you know, it’s not me, it’s gonna be students working with students, students coming up with these initiatives. And within two months the Biden Institute came up and and we’re very excited to kickstart this very unique Institute for students. Basically it’s a platform where students can come to together share their experiences, share what they know, share their passion through conversation, through activities and providing a safer and brave place for them to be able to see their, their creativity, see their thoughts come in to to, to life and to be able to to, to, to build their legacy every day.


Sam Demma (17:44):
Hmm. It’s amazing. If someone is interested in learning more about the Institute, does it have a web URL or a, a page that someone can search to read about it?


Phebe Lam (17:54):
Yes. Yes they do. Yes, they do. Sorry. Yes, we do. So if I can share that link with you you know, after yeah.


Sam Demma (18:05):
Awesome. Amazing. And what the does the day in the life look like in your current role and position you’ve done, you know, various different things. What, what does the day in the life look like now?


Phebe Lam (18:20):
Oh, wow.


Sam Demma (18:21):
That’s a tough one.


Phebe Lam (18:22):
Oh, no, it’s it, yes. It, it’s a, it’s a tough one, but it’s also really exciting just, you know, it is every day of you know, how can I even sum it up? It’s it’s leadership in a in a, in a way that I didn’t see leadership as it is the way that I see it today. And so, you know, just a few points, you know I’ve really learned that, you know, I don’t have to have the right answers and just the thought of that gives me freedom, right. Gives me freedom to, to be curious, because that’s also freedom. And, you know, understand that the power in leadership comes when we share it and we support it in others. And a large part of what I do is is, is fostering our future leaders and having students working in my office.


Phebe Lam (19:30):
Now I have, you know, this office has, you know five directors that are are, are so wonderful. And, you know, when I look at the work that they do it’s the commitment, you know, it’s their it’s, I see the inspiration that they have in them and the passion that they have in them to really serve the students, because they want to make, you know, this community this world a truly, a better place. And, and again, you know, that leaving that legacy be, be behind, right. As, as we move forward you know, in the day in the life, you know, every day is about being vulnerable keeping in check with who I am being aware and constantly reflecting and and assessing where I am where others are and to meet others where they are not expect to, to come to me and be at my place, but for me to put forth, authentic and genuine effort to go to where they are and to meet them where they are and see what our student needs are and what what needs are for those who work alongside me and to nurture that.


Sam Demma (20:54):
Awesome, something that I believe is important is being a lifelong learner. And you strike me as someone with curiosity, who is always looking for new ways to grow and learn new things over the course of your career, have you found any books or resources or courses or things that you had went through that were extremely valuable that you think if other educators had the chance to read, watch, or experience would also be helpful for their personal development?


Phebe Lam (21:29):
Absolutely. So I have a, a few a few a few videos or a few individuals that, that again have really impacted my view in perspective in not just, you know, education or teaching and learning and not just in mentoring and leadership, but for every day. Mm. So you don’t have to be a teacher or you can be a child or anyone, you know, I mean, there’s seven point what 8 billion people in this, in this world. And we’re all unique living beings, right. Each with our own lived experiences. So so yes, there are, there are the first one is Drew Dudley. He is a, you know, leadership speaker and he speaks to everyday leadership and the lollipop moment, how we should be creating impact every day through not just the big stuff, because most of us are not doing those big grand things, but those everyday leadership opportunities by, you know, as simple as acknowledging what somebody’s done for you, and those are those lollipop moments, and I’ve really done a lot, made an effort to do that more and more.


Phebe Lam (22:49):
And week I, I, I look back and reflect on my life and think, oh, you know what, at this moment, this person made a huge difference in my life. And it could have been easy as a, a, a, a constant smile that this person always had. And I, I went back and I acknowledged that, and, you know and that’s been really great. So ju du lead the everyday leadership, his Ted talk really really impacted me. The other person that’s really impacted myself is Dra woman’s right. A, she won the she received the 2004 Nobel peace prize for her work. And she speaks to the story of a hummingbird and where, you know, a hummingbird is in this huge Flos and this Floris is consumed with fire, and all the animals have, you know, come together and are, is looking with, at this floors burning and feeling, you know, very overwhelmed and powerless, and, you know, not knowing what to do, except for this little hummingbird and this little hummingbird, you know, said to itself, well, I’m gonna do something about this fire.


Phebe Lam (24:04):
So it flies back and forth to the stream and brings with this little beak, a tiny droplets of water and sprinkling onto this huge forest fire. And all the animals are, you know, animals bigger than the hummingbird, you know, said to this hummingbird, you know, what are you doing? You know, you’re so small, this fire is so big and your wings are so little, you know, you only carry a drop of water at the time. Like, what are, you know, what’s that gonna do? And, you know, this little hummingbird was not at all discouraged. And it turned to these, these animals and said, you know, I’m doing the best I can. Mm. And, you know, I, I carry that with me. And I shared, you know, this story with, with my students all the time, as I, you know, we can just do the best we can, you know, and and that’s enough.


Phebe Lam (24:52):
Right. And, you know, and it’s okay to be that hummingbird because there are other hummingbirds around who are doing this exact same thing. And, you know, we, we, we can, you know, we see each other and together, you know, is better. And you know, as, as small as you think that you are, or maybe you may feel insignificant, you really are not you know, you just need to do the best you can and to, to be able to reach out for support when you can. So those are, you know, the two you know, two little videos, short videos that that really has, you know, impacted my journey and has really, you know, given me some clear direction. I always go back to, to those two things. You know, especially when times are challenging and when times are difficult.


Sam Demma (25:43):
That’s amazing. Those are both two awesome resources. I’ll make sure to link them in the show notes and on the article. So you can watch those if you’d like as well, Phoebe, this has been a really enjoyable conversation packed with so many experiences and ideas. If someone wants to reach out, send you a message, what would be the best way for them to get in contact with you?


Phebe Lam (26:07):
My email at the university of Windsor I’m also on LinkedIn. I have to do better with that. Not as I don’t keep up with that as, as much, but that’s one of my goals for 2022. But yes, my email is, you know, Phebe.Lam@uwindsor.ca


Sam Demma (26:28):
Awesome. Phoebe, thank you so much. Keep up the amazing work. Keep being a hummingbird and making everyday impact. And I’ll talk to you soon.


Phebe Lam (26:37):
Thank you, Sam. Thank you again for this opportunity.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Phebe Lam

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

February 16, 2022 by Association Director Experiential Learning Professor Student Leadership Student Success Teachers 0

Dr. Leslie D. Sukup – Associate Professor of Management at Ferris State University College of Business

Dr. Leslie D. Sukup - Associate Professor of Management at Ferris State University College of Business
About Dr. Leslie D. Sukup

Dr. Leslie Sukup is currently an Associate Professor of Management at Ferris State University where she is currently teaching Team Dynamics-Organizational Behavior, Quality-Operations Management, Business Integrated Experience CAPSTONE, Business Ethics and Social Responsibility, Managerial Leadership, Leadership and Organizational Change, and International Logistics courses.

Additionally, she is also the Business Administration Program Coordinator, the academic advisor for the Business Professionals of America Registered Student Organization, and the chair of the College of Business Committee on Diversity and Inclusion.

Previously to her current position, Dr. Leslie Sukup has been an adjunct professor and was also on active duty in the U.S. Air Force for 25 years. During this time, she held numerous leadership roles such as the Superintendent of the Air Force Agency for Modeling and Simulation, and a variety of instructional roles including Air Force One Advance Agent training.

Dr. Sukup has also received many awards and commendations during her service including the Meritorious Service Award, Joint Service Commendation Medal, Information Manager of the Year, Quality Inspection Professional Performer, and numerous others. Dr. Sukup is also a certified Master Resilience Trainer and has instructed more than 5,000 military members and students in resilience skills.

Connect with Dr. Leslie D. Sukup: Email | Linkedin

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Ferris State University College of Business

GIMKIT Live Learning Game Show Software

Business Professionals of America

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma (00:01):
Welcome back to another episode of the high performing educator podcast. This is your host and youth speaker Sam Demma. Today’s guest is Dr. Leslie Sukup. Dr. Sukup is currently an associate professor of management at Ferris State University, where she is currently teaching team dynamics, organizational behavior, quality operations management business, integrated experience, the cap stone version, business ethics, and social responsibility, managerial leadership, leadership, and organizational change and international logistics courses. Additionally, she’s also the business administration program coordinator, the academic advisor for the business professionals of America registered student organization and the chair of the college of business committee on diversity and inclusion previous to her current positions. Dr. Sukup has been an adjunct professor and was also active duty in the US Air Force for 25 years. During this year, she held numerous leadership roles such as the superintendent of the air force agency for modeling and simulation and a variety of instructional roles, including air force. One advanced agent training, Dr. Sukup has also received many awards and commendations during her service, including the meritorious service award joint service commend medal information manager of the year quality inspection, professional performer and numerous others. Leslie is also a certified master resilience trainer and has instructed more than 5,000 military members and students and resilient skills. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did, and I will see you on the other side. Leslie, welcome to the high performing educator podcast. Big pleasure to have you on the show here this morning. Please start by introducing yourself.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (02:52):
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Sam. My name is Leslie Sukup. I happen to be a, a faculty member here at Ferris State University, where I teach in the management department in the college of business. I teach a wide variety of management classes. I’m also the business administration program coordinator, the business professionals of America our registered student organization advisor. I am also the chair of the college of business committee and inclusion. So I think I’ve covered all of my different committees and responsibilities, but it, again, it’s a pleasure to be here.


Sam Demma (03:35):
Tell us a little more about the journey that brought you to where you are now.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (03:41):
Oh, great question. So the journey started when I actually, it started when I was 16 years old. So this is the time when I tracked down the air force recruiter and I was told I could not enlist in the air force. I had to wait a year. So I waited a year and tracked them down again, enlisted in the air force. And I thought when I graduated high school, I would just do four years in the air force and get out and go along my, my Merry way into whatever I had at that time, which at that time was PO potentially going into the secret service. However, I made it to my first duty station and I met my husband. That changed things. He was, he had been in the air force longer than I had and, and it was, it was easier to stay in so we could go to different places.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (04:47):
And I was enjoying my job at the time and I said, okay, not a, not a, not a problem, but I also had a lot of teaching opportunities and instructor opportunities in the year of force. And I found that I really loved the experience. I loved making a positive impact on different people that I instructed. It was very heartwarming to see people grow and develop. And I especially loved the aha moment, you know, or they get that, that big light bulb on top of their head. And you can see that they really grasp what you are teaching or instructing. So this led me to think, okay, I, I’m probably a lifer for staying in the military, but on top of that, I need to think about the second chap. So I thought, well, I really enjoy teaching and why not marry those two together?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (05:50):
So while I was active duty, I finished my bachelor’s degree, my master’s and I finished my doctorate one year before I was to retire from the air force. Wow, great, great timing. so when I retired from the air force, I started to apply to different institutions, higher education institutions, and one of them happened to be fair state university. And I was very lucky that I got selected or was hired into, into the job that I’m in. Now. I, I love this university. I love the, the culture, the small town feel it’s, it’s really, really what I is meant to do. And I can say that coming into work is never a chore. I never dread it. In fact, every day is kind of like opening a box of chocolates. Mm-Hmm you never know what you’re gonna get, but it’s always a positive feel. And I love being that change agent, the positive change agent to all of my students, it’s it really is a very rewarding job. And I’m very thankful to have chosen this as a second chapter for me.


Sam Demma (07:07):
I think every educator that’s listening to this right now is thinking the exact same thing about their work, which is absolutely awesome. You brushed over a and almost didn’t even mention the fact that while you were working with the military, you started doing sessions on resiliency. Can you talk a little bit more about your role as a master trainer and resiliency and also where that passion stem from and how you define resilience?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (07:36):
Oh, absolutely. So I’ll start off with the definition of resilience or my definition. And my definition of resilience is that you are able, when you encounter adversity, you are able to bounce back stronger than you were before. Mm. And that means that you may have learned new skills. You have learned just a, a different way of approaching a problem, but either way you’ve come back stronger than you were initially based upon that experience. And my love for resilient grew probably before I actually started to teaching resilience, but the two married up very well together. When I was 20, I had just turned 22. My dad passed away unexpectedly three days before Christmas, actually two days before Christmas and 1996. And he was 44 years old and totally unexpected that shook my world. Plus at the time I was about to PCs from my permanent changes station. So I was moving from my first duty station all the way up the east coast. So from Florida all the way up to Massachusetts, and when you’re going through that much change during the holidays, it’s a lot.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (09:14):
And that experience taught me a lot about resilience. So when I started teaching resilience in the air force, it was taking my life experiences, but also providing them with stories in the classroom, but really seeing the impact of teaching resilience to others can have on their lives. I’ve had, I’ve heard so many heartwarming stories where individuals have taken the skills that they’ve learned in the classroom and have improved their lives for the better it’s. I have so many stories. There’s no, there’s not enough time in, in a podcast to cover ’em all , but to see the improvement in their relationships, to see the improvement in their personal lives, their professional lives, and to see them become better people overall that’s where my research passion for resilience came about. It’s also the reason why I add resilience into my, all of my classes, because it has such a powerful impact, not just on myself, because it’s a way of boosting my own resilience, but it’s a, it’s also lending my students to become positive change agents in the world because they’re learning a little bit more about resilience and, and maybe not all of the tools and techniques resonate with them, but they’re gonna be able to take one away with them that does, and that can potentially help them later on in life.


Sam Demma (10:59):
Yeah, it’s so true. Resiliency is a tool that you need to pack in your toolkit or in your backpack, because it’s not a matter of if something will happen that challenges you, it’s a matter of when, at some point in all of our lives. Can you tell us a little bit more about your transition from working with the army to getting into the classroom? What was that transition like and how did you adjust and adopt this new role?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (11:31):
Great, wonderful question. So that anytime that you’re moving from one culture to another, it, it can be a little unsettling. And because I had spent 25 years in the air force, you know, this is something where you’re wearing a uniform every day. You, for females, you have to have your hair up and you are expected to act a certain way, which is called your military bearing. And once that goes away, it, for some, it could be a form of a loss of identity, but I found per personally the transition to be fairly easy. And I think that’s because there was a lot of change occurring those last few years while I was in the military. And because at that time I had finished my doctorate degree. I also had my so second baby. She was, she was born two weeks after I defended my dissertation.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (12:40):
So it was, that was part of my motivation to get it done because I knew that having another baby after, and I already had a small, small child at the time. And my oldest daughter, I knew adding another one into the mix would make it a little bit more difficult to reach that finish line. So my motivation was high to make sure I got everything done before, before she was born. But she was also born with CDH, which is Congenital diaphragmatic hernia. And that mean, that meant that when she was born, she had 18 people in the in the operating room just for her. Cause I had to have a, a C-section and, you know, she was Whis away to the, to the NICU and she survived she’s she’s my warrior. But when you have all of these moving pieces happening, it’s, it’s a lot. But I also leaned upon my resilience and what I had learned myself, but also what I had taught to others. And I think that made the transitioned really, really fluid for me. It was almost like just taking off the uniform and putting on a different uniform, you know, more, a little bit more business professional, but you know, it was still putting on clothes and going to work. And I, I, I think it, I, I think I, it, well,


Sam Demma (14:18):
That’s awesome. And speaking of transitions, everyone that works in education went through a couple of massive transitions over the past 24 months, relating to COVID and going to online learning and back to in person learning back to online learning. How did you deal with those transitions and what do you think were some of the challenges and how did you overcome them?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (14:41):
Oh, the, yes, the last couple of years have been a little bit of a rollercoaster, but I found that the way to make it through, it was one, be honest with the students, they’re going through the same journey as you. They’re not expecting you to know it all. They’re just expecting you to be real and to be clear with the communication and transparent. Yeah. You know, don’t pull any punches, don’t try to, to change things to where it may be more difficult or, you know, adding additional hurdles. But I found that that open communication really lended itself to keeping that cohesive this with my class and, you know, telling them, okay, we’re gonna try something new. And if it doesn’t work, we’ll throw it to the side. But if it does all right, you know, no, no harm, no foul, but that communication piece was, was huge.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (15:49):
But I also took the time to reflect after all of my classes to figure out, okay, what didn’t go so well, mm-hmm, what did it, what do I wish I would’ve done differently? And that helped me to prepare for the next semester. And then also leaning upon others who may have been doing this a little bit further or more with more time under their belt and getting their advice and seeing, okay, how did you approach? I mean, COVID is new, but not online teaching or high flex teaching the different modalities. Those have been in place for a while. So leaning upon the best practices that, that are out there seeking. I did a lot of webinars or zoom sessions with industry leaders and, and others who had that experience just seeing, okay, what other nuggets of knowledge can, can I add to my own toolbox to help create the best experience for my students? Cause really it’s all, I want them to have the best experience to get the most out of the class. So that way, when they graduate, they can be the best of themselves. They can go out and be those positive change. Agents,


Sam Demma (17:07):
Educators are always hunting and on the lookout for other educators, best practices to tools and tips. And I’m curious to know what some of those things have been for you not only during COVID, but potentially through your entire journey and career and education. Are there any tools, ideas, or resources that you have consistently leaned on and learned from and brought into your classrooms?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (17:33):
I think for, for me, it’s always having that open mind is probably one of the, the toolkits per se. But as far as technology, I find that games are very appealing to kids. Whether Kahoot is a big one. I found a new one during my during COVID that I added to my toolbox. And I think the students really like it cuz it adds a different appeal in the classroom. It’s still that quiz based game, but there’s no time associated with it. Mm. And I think that takes away a little bit of that anxiety that some students may have when you have a countdown timer at the top of the screen where it’s going 20, 19 18. And you’re thinking, oh, I don’t know this answer. I guess I gotta pick the best one. So it takes a little bit of that anxiety away, but you can also have the students and teams in the classroom where they’re competing against each other. But it’s, I find that when you add a little bit of fun into the mix that students take more away from the material, cause you’re, you’re tying it into a positive emotion. Do you remember? So games I think are, are really good.


Sam Demma (18:57):
Do you remember what that second quiz-based game is called? Just outta curiosity. Oh sure.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (19:03):
It’s called GIMKIT.


Sam Demma (19:05):
GI kit, like G I M


Dr. Leslie Sukup (19:07):
GIMKIT. And so surprisingly it was created by a high school student who found that it was boring learning information. And so he took the initiative and created a game that I I think is awesome. And it has a really good function too with reports. So you can see what questions they answered wrong, which ones they got. Right. so that I can take away, even though they’re playing a game, I can still use these reports to tailor the lessons or reinforce material that they might have missed along the way.


Sam Demma (19:47):
Give us an idea of how you leverage that tool. Would it be something you use at the end of a lecture to quiz the class on what you just taught them? Or how do you leverage it?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (20:00):
Oh, absolutely. So one of the ways that I, I leverage it is by having it right before a test or right before a quiz. So they have read the lessons. Maybe they have watched some videos, they have, we’ve done some lectures, some activities in class. Well now before they jump in to the test or the quiz, they can use this and they can play it as many times as they wish and build boost their confidence.


Sam Demma (20:35):
That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate it. Sure. Along with challenges and pivoting, there’s also opportunities. And I’m wondering what you believe are some of the opportunities that the challenges in education that are facing us today are also providing…


Dr. Leslie Sukup (20:55):
Great question. The, I think that one of the opportunities that has arisen from these challenging times is flexibility. I think that the traditional classrooms are probably not going to be the new normal. I think the new normal is going to be that flexibility where students, if they want to attend face to face, they can, or if they want to, you know, they, they overslept. And instead of getting a feeding ticket on the way to class, they can, or they’re just not feeling well. Maybe they got the sniffles well, they can choose to attend via virtual means as well. So I think there’s a lot of, a lot of flexibility, at least in higher education but I also see it happening in K through 12. One of the things my daughter was in first, well, she start, she was at the end of kindergarten when COVID hit.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (21:58):
Mm. First grade was really where she had more virtual days. She had sometime in the seat part of the week, part of the week virtual, but I saw a growth in her that I probably would not have seen if it wasn’t for COVID. She is more tech savvy. Now she, she really blossomed with being virtual and as a parent, I was able to see more of what her world is like. So I think there there’s that opportunity too, on the parent side to be a little bit more involved in the education to see what their student or their child is learning. And maybe for that into a, a stronger bond between the two, cuz we would do homework together. And so she had the teacher teaching part of the lesson, but then when it came time to do the homework by herself, you know, she would, she would ask questions and I would be there to, to kind of help her along. But it was bonding moment as well.


Sam Demma (23:11):
That’s amazing. And that sounds like it was a result of you also being proactive because an opportunity is only as good as what you make of it. And it sounds like you had a growth mindset about the situation, because it’s also true that there could have been people who look at the challenge and said, I’m not changing. I don’t wanna change. There’s nothing good about this and missed out on all those areas of growth that you’re mentioning now. So I think like you said earlier, the flexibility, even in your own perspective is super important to take any adversity and turn it into a, an opportunity. Would you agree?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (23:50):
I do Agree. I think it’s that definitely the growth mindset it’s taking that perspective of, instead of looking at the glass half empty, looking at it as half full and what can you take out of that, that challenging time and turn it around into an opportunity.


Sam Demma (24:08):
I love it. And if you could go back in time and speak to Leslie year one in education, but with all the wisdom and experience that you have now, what advice would you impart on your younger self?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (24:24):
I would say more confidence in yourself, but also be more authentic and not, you’re not just the rule of the professor or the teacher in front of the room, but be more of yourself. And I have noticed that as I’ve brought more of my personality, the true me into the classroom, the students really resonate with that. They, they love seeing you as a human, as opposed to a teacher or professor that figurehead in front of the classroom. But the more authentic you are with students, that’s what I would, that’s what I would give is advice to my earlier self, be more authentic, you know, you’ll be able to enrich those students lives even more so. Yeah.


Sam Demma (25:18):
I love that. I, I think that’s such a good reminder, not only to impact the people you’re affecting, but also just to enjoy life more. If you’re being yourself and you never have to adjust yourself to fit a role or a situation, you’re gonna have more fun too. So that’s a phenomenal piece of advice. Leslie, thank you so much for taking some time to come on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I hope the rest of the year goes well. If someone is wondering how they could reach out to you, ask a question or even talk about resiliency, what would be the best way for them to get in touch?


Dr. Leslie Sukup (25:56):
Yes, absolutely. They can get in touch with me. Either through LinkedIn, I’m on LinkedIn or you can send me an email it’s LeslieSukup@ferris.edu.


Sam Demma (26:22):
Right. Awesome. Leslie, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your Friday. Have a great weekend. And we’ll tell to you soon.


Dr. Leslie Sukup (26:29):
Thank you, Sam. It’s been a pleasure.


Sam Demma (26:32):
Hey, it’s Sam again. I hope you enjoyed that amazing conversation on the high performing educator podcast. If you or someone, you know, deserves some extra recognition and appreciation for the work they do in education, please consider applying or nominating them for the high performing educator awards, go to www.highperformingeducator.com/award. You can also find the link in the show notes. I’m super excited to spotlight and feature 20 people in 2022. And I’m hoping you or someone, you know, can be one of those educators. I’ll talk to you on the next episode, all the best.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Dr. Leslie D. Sukup

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

January 14, 2022 by Experiential Learning Professor Student Success Teachers 0

Jeff Gerber – Speaker, Teacher, Relationship Advocate

Jeff Gerber - Speaker, Teacher, Relationship Advocate
About Jeff Gerber

Jeff (@jeffgpresents) has a natural way of connecting with people and moving them to action.  He was a leader on his high school campus, active in Student Council, won a bronze medal at the Canadian National High School Debating Championships, and was voted by his peers to be Valedictorian of their graduating class.  

At the University of Western Ontario (now Western University) he remained active in public speaking, being recognized as an Outstanding Delegate to the prestigious Harvard National Model UN and broadcasting on campus radio.  He also played several seasons with the football Mustangs earning a varsity athletic letter.

​As an educator, Jeff is blessed to teach at his alma mater.  ​As the Student Activities Council Advisor and Leadership Teacher at Waterloo-Oxford DSS, he leads one of the largest and most impactful leadership programs in the province of Ontario.  The school’s inclusive programs to welcome new students are a model for the region.  Their school-wide Relay for Life fundraising events for the Canadian Cancer Society have raised over $625,000 in the last decade. He further gives his time coaching several varsity school sports teams, and has led teams to league championship teams in two different sports.

Jeff and his wife Julie and their three children (twin daughters Brookelynn and Katherine and son Jackson) live outside Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario where they are active leaders and volunteers in their schools and community.   Jeff has served on numerous local boards, is currently a member of his local government Township Council (serving his fourth elected term), and has coached numerous local travel teams in baseball and hockey.   For his efforts and expertise in guiding young people, and their parents, he was recognized as Rep Hockey Coach of the Year for the local ​New Hamburg Hockey Association.

Jeff is a genuine motivator, always striving to learn more and do more.  He is excited to meet you and work alongside you to better your school, association, conference, or corporate community.

Connect with Jeff: Email | Instagram | Linkedin | Twitter

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Jeff Gerber Website

Waterloo-Oxford DSS

Canadian Cancer Society

YLCC programs

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma (00:00):

Welcome back to another episode of the high performing educator podcast. This is your host and youth speaker, Sam Demma. I met today’s guest just over a year ago at a conference in Waterloo, Ontario called horizons. Jeff was there with a group of his students watching me and a couple other people speak, but you should also know Jeff himself is a keynote speaker along with being a teacher, a husband, a father, and a student leadership advisor. I’m sure you’ll realize this in the interview, but Jeff has a very natural way of connecting with people and moving them to action. Back when he was in high school, he was a leader, someone who was very involved in, he was even the valedictorian of his graduating class. And then in his university career at Western university, he remained very active in public speaking. He was recognized as an outstanding delegate at the prestigious Harvard national model UN competition.

Sam Demma (00:57):

And he also was an athlete on the football Mustangs team, earning a varsity athletic letter, very, very involved throughout all of his education. Especially now as an educator, Jeff is blessed to teach at his Alma mater where he went to school at the student activity council advisor, as the advisor and leadership teacher at Waterloo, Oxford DSS, he leads one of the larger and most impactful leadership programs in the province of Ontario. The school’s inclusive programs to welcome new students are a model for the whole region. Their schoolwide relay for life fundraising event for the Canadian cancer society has raised over $625,000 in the last decade. And further gives his time coaching several varsity school sports teams and has led teams to league championships in two different sports. Now this man needs no more introduction his ideas, his insights, his passion, his energy really shines bright and comes through during this interview.

Sam Demma (02:01):

There’s so much on building relationships that he provides, and I really hope you have a pen and paper nearby because you’re gonna be using it in this episode without further ado. Let’s get into the interview with Jeff. I’ll see you on the other side, Jeff, thank you so much for coming on the high performing educator podcast. It’s a pleasure to have you, we talked a little bit about your Bower shirt, your at the school. Can you share with the audience who you are, what you do and why you’re passionate about the work you do with you

Jeff Gerber (02:31):

Today? Yeah, that’s awesome. Thanks. thanks so much for having me Sam, great opportunity. I’ve heard some of your stuff appreciate the work that you’re doing with high performing students and now with with high performing educators yeah, Jeff Gerber, as you may, I’m a, I’m an educator. So I’ve been at the I’m blessed to serve at the same school I attended. I’ve been there over 20 years now, been involved in teaching leadership and student activities. And that’s sort of been my main role within the school coach, a bunch of different sports and all those kinds of things. Just ways to build connections with students. And then outside of school active in my active, in my local church and a member of our local township council. And and I’ve gotten started sort of dabbling into speaking and presenting myself over the last over the last couple of years as well. So that’s been a fun a fun chapter to explore too.

Sam Demma (03:17):

And a father, correct? Oh

Jeff Gerber (03:18):

Yeah, yeah. Father, husband, brother, son. Yeah. All that sort of stuff. Sorry.

Sam Demma (03:22):

<Laugh> cool. Cool. the only reason I ask is cuz you mentioned shoehorning your own kids into hockey and they were growing up. <Laugh> what gets you passionate about the work you do with youth though? Is, is there a reason you got into education? Every time I talk with an educator and I, them that question, they usually say it was, you know, a tap on the shoulder or something happened, but I find everyone has a unique story. What, what, what got you into this? Yeah,

Jeff Gerber (03:47):

I think, I think probably for me it was, it was the opportunity to give back. I, as I mentioned, I’m blessed to serve at the school that I went to. I had a number of educators who, who built into my life, who gave me opportu to, to try things and do things and explore and discover, you know, talents and interests that I might not have known I had otherwise. And, and the opportunity to sort of, you know, do that in return and sort of, you know, pay it forward, pay it back. However you will was sort of you know, was certainly alluring to me. I mean, selfishly I mean the lifestyle for, you know, for families and, and for kids and all that sort of stuff is awesome as well. But I mean it, it’s hard work harder now than ever obviously. But yeah, I think mainly that chance to sort of, you know, just to sort of give back and, and give students an opportunity just to, just to flourish and, and, and discover themselves and grow.

Sam Demma (04:37):

Hmm. I love that. And I’m, I’m sure I’m certain, you have unique perspectives being both the father and a teacher as do many educators in talking about hard times right now, things are different and they are difficult. What are some of the challenges you’ve been seeing and how have you overcome them or, you know, went around them or dug under them, you know, got, got over them in some way, shape or form. Yeah.

Jeff Gerber (04:59):

I, I mean, obviously the challenge challenges and this isn’t just an education, but, but isolation is, is one of the huge challenges that we’re all dealing with right now. In school we see that just in a loss of the activities and the things that would normally give students an opportunity to connect. Yeah. So you just, you know, so you try to continue to provide those opportunities just in the, just in the new you know, just in the new realm. And certainly one thing I think, think that we’re finding this fall is, I mean, last spring was tough, right? We sort of, we, it’s funny. We had, we, we went back and found one of our, like our outdoor sign binder at school. When we put up the new sign in September, we had had a message in there, you know, March 15th you know, happy March break classes resume April 6th, right?

Jeff Gerber (05:39):

Because when we left for those two weeks after March break, that’s what we all thought was happening. So what we’re learning, I think is it’s, it’s a lot harder starting the year, this way than it is than it was ending the year mm-hmm <affirmative> wrapping things up in April, may and June, at least had seven months under your belt of working with students every day and knowing them and getting to know them and educating ’em, all that sort of stuff, starting it from scratch, launching it from scratch is, is a, is a different kettle of fish. We’re sort of in hybrid quad Mester. I mean, all the new words are so, so there’s a lot of unintended consequences of just the way the timetables set up and how often you’re seeing kids are not seeing kids. And it just takes a lot of your assumptions and ways you’ve done things. And you just have to, you know, you’re almost like starting over almost like being a new teacher in a way.

Sam Demma (06:23):

Yeah. Have you experimented with anything or maybe not yourself, but have seen other people try some things, a lot of people mention throwing spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks has any spaghetti stuck for you so far. And maybe you could share that experience.

Jeff Gerber (06:39):

Well, I think, I think one of the, one of the opportunities that sort of come outta this are, I’m not sure if it, you know, if we’ve got sort of specifics down pat, but yeah. But one of the things I think is the idea that in, in the old, you know, in, in normally you’d have your leadership students, which is the people I’d be involved with, you know, running large scale events and giving all sorts of opportunities for people to connect with each other that they don’t normally connect with. Right. and now, so I sort of, I, we just talked about this at a, at a staff meeting last night, I sort of said, you know, normally we’d be crop dusting and, you know, providing all these opportunities out there for people to plug in and meet each other. Well, right now we don’t have any of those, right.

Jeff Gerber (07:16):

We’re not allowed to meet beyond the 15 kids in our cohort, in our classroom. So now instead of crop dusting, we’re doing all the weeding by hand. So it’s basically each individual teacher has those 15 kids. And, and you’re the ones that need to provide those opportunities for kids to connect and get to know each other. You need to maybe be a bit more, more vulnerable than you’ve normally been. You need to maybe take a bit of your academic time, set it aside to, to, to build connections. Because I think any of those opportunities and now people are sort of realizing that, yeah, I can’t just, there isn’t just a, a pumpkin car contest or some, or some charity thing, or, you know, what we call it sock pack at our school. Other schools call it link crew, whatever. Like there aren’t all these other things going on that are connecting people. I’m all they got. So, you know, so we’re just trying at our school anyway, to just empower the educators in our school and give them some of the tools and the resources and free them up to do some of the stuff that, you know, leadership or activities or other people might have done before. And, and that’s sort of neat to see and everybody’s sort of doing it their way. We’ve provided them with some tools and some resources, but yeah,

Sam Demma (08:19):

I know you do a lot of speaking on building relationships on student leadership. Why is these opportunities given to students so important and impactful?

Jeff Gerber (08:30):

Yeah. well, I have a little saying the, the biggest ship in leadership is relationships. So to me it all comes down to sort of connecting people, like I said before, the analogy I like to you uses we’re sort of and this is an old movie reference. I sometimes make old movie references, which I, I don’t wanna date myself, but I love the movie hitch and will Smith plays Alex Hitchens and his job is to let people meet who might not otherwise have met and give them opportunities to sort of build relationships. And I think in a school that’s sort of what activities and leadership is all about. It’s letting people at again, whatever event you’re running, that’s sort of the backdrop for just allowing these people to meet and get to know each other that might not otherwise have connected.

Jeff Gerber (09:09):

And it’s interesting just to see how, how people’s relationships and friendships and things form the opportunities to get at school. Like, it’s always interesting to me to read, you know, students who are writing sort of their last sort of letter in, in a, in a leadership class at the end of grade 12, reflecting back on the people they met in their group at grade nine night and how the friendships that came out of that you know, the opportunities to have a microphone in your hand, in front of a group of people know the opportunity to, to come up with a slogan or pick a theme song or somehow influence or shape things that are happening. And I, you know, I, I think that’s exciting and, you know, that’s sort of, you know, like we talked about at the beginning and that sort of motivates me, and I think it’s an important, and it’s an important part of school, right? There’s so much more to school. I mean, we could go on about how much, you know, in academics is it’s important to, it’s probably half of what kids need to succeed in their life outside of school. There’s a lot of other pieces there. And you know, and, and activities, athletics clubs, teams I’ll provide that. I’m I’m, I mean, I’m, I’m sure it made a difference in your life, you know, in, in your time as a student.

Sam Demma (10:09):

Yeah. I mean, my whole life changed because of, of an educator who believed in me when I was in a tough situation, which is why I wanted to actually ask you, I’m sure. In the dozens of years you’ve been teaching, you’ve had students write you those letters that you mentioned at the end of leadership class that probably bring you to tears sometimes and really show you why the job you do is so important. There’s some educators listening who might feel burnt out and may have a loss of hope. Right, right. Now, can you think of a story of a student who was so impacted by leadership activities by school culture, by relationships that were built that you’d like to share and the more open and vulnerable the story is, the more it’ll resonate. So feel free to change a student’s name for a privacy reason. But does any story kind of stick out in your yeah, I mean

Jeff Gerber (10:56):

I mean, I, I, there’s so many I mean, it’s funny, we’re just like, well, I, I wanna ask you about your social media freeze later, but <laugh> I, I, I haven’t been on it as much lately as I normally am, but I just saw a former student just posting their story. They’re running the relay for life for Carlton university. So I just sent them a quick note, Hey, congrats. You know, they were involved in relay at our school, you know, this is three years later. And they just sort of messes me back quick. Hey, it’s just neat to put into practice all the things that you know, that we had a chance to learn in school. But I think, I think the story I’ll share is one of the things I’ve started learning to do this in the last year or so is check in with students on a more regular basis.

Jeff Gerber (11:32):

And I got this idea from another organization that I’ve started doing some work with called character strong. And it’s called it, it just, it’s just a, it’s just a check in, you can either do it daily or weekly. It’s just a Google form. Hey, how are you today? One to five. Why do you feel this way? And you don’t have to answer right. That’s totally optional. And I had a, I had a group that I started with in the real classroom and ended up in the virtual world and we’ll call ’em the three Amigos. And they were just, well, you just sort of knew going in, just so sometimes you just look at your class list and, you know, okay. I, you know, I’ve got these three they’re in the same room and the first day did not go well.

Jeff Gerber (12:10):

And I just sort of closed the, I just asked them stay, cuz you don’t want to, you know, confront people in front of other people. Like it’s not about, you know, it’s not about power. It’s not about, it’s about, Hey, you know, we’re gonna get through this. How are we gonna do it? I just sort of closed the door. And I said, I know maybe you’re used to, you know, getting sent to the office a lot, cuz I, I know that you’re I see you there. But I just want you to know that whatever happens here, this, this room is like Vegas, whatever happens in this room stays. So we’re gonna deal with whatever happens in here. I’m not setting you off somewhere else. I’m not, you know, you’re not anybody else’s concern right now except except mine. Mm. And that was sort of just to sort of set the tone that, Hey, I, you know, I care about you and we’re gonna, you know, whatever is bothering you right now, or today or the next day, we’ll sort of get through it together.

Jeff Gerber (12:53):

And through the check-ins you sort of start to learn a little bit more about people’s backgrounds. And then the one day the one guy was just sort of, you know, he was, he was on his phone and looking down and I could see he was sort of troubled and he, he eventually left the room and I just sort of fall out in the hall. I said, Hey, what’s wrong? And he started crying and he was having some problems with his dad and you know, his dad was sort of disowning him, sounded like, and, and we just had a, a real, just a real good conversation about that. And then when we went to the virtual world, we were able to sort of, again, through the check-ins and through Google meets and through, you know, emails back and forth, just sort of just sort of keep in touch.

Jeff Gerber (13:27):

And it was interesting. We had this huge spreadsheet of of kids who were just sort of dropping off the end of the map, you know, dropping off the end of the, of the know, like it’s April and may and they’re not connecting, they’re not. And it was interesting just tracking him through this process. And it was at one point there was a note beside his file just said, civics with Gerber is the only class he’s doing <laugh> and, and he had, he had already told everybody else he had. And, and the only reason I think that was, was because we had taken some time in to look a little bit deeper into each other’s lives and understand each other a little better and find out what each other are going through. So I think that was sort of, you know, that sort of extended into COVID and that was just a simple daily, check-in just an opportunity.

Jeff Gerber (14:08):

Hey, and again, you don’t have to write anything, but you know, what’s going on. And and it just opens the doors to so many other things. And, and that’s one of the things we’ve been doing at our school. And I, we’ve sort of launched character strong at our school this fall. And, you know, just trying to get some again, what I talked about before, give each individual teacher the chance to build those relationships and connections, because I mean, the research shows that it’s the number one thing that that’s gonna, you know, that’s gonna turn a kid around or, or help a kid stay engaged.

Sam Demma (14:34):

Speaking of character strong, I know Houston talks so much about kindness. Yes. I’m curious to know how do we, how do we make sure students feel and receive those acts of kindness even a, even in a virtual world?

Jeff Gerber (14:47):

Yeah. I mean, you gotta keep it, you gotta keep it front and center. Right. I mean, you, you also have to model it, right. I mean, that’s one of the things, I mean, it’s one of the things I like about, I like about, about, about character strong is it’s not something it’s not, it’s not something to do to students. It’s something done with students like the adult work in the building, you know, what the adults are modeling as far as their relationships with students, their relationships with each other. I mean, that’s all that also important. And there, and what the other thing about, I mean, and anybody who’s listened to Houston knows this, like there’s so many other, like, I know he hates the phrase, you know, throw kindness, throw kindness around like, like confetti, right. He hates that because he thinks it sort of cheapens, you know, there’s, there’s a little bit more to it than that, right?

Jeff Gerber (15:26):

There’s a, a few things that undermine kindness, right? Some skills you need to know. Empathy’s a big one, right. And, and we know kids today research tells us, I mean, they’re more anxious, you know, than ever. Right. Michelle BBA and her book on selfie talks about the relationship between anxiety and empathy, right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> as anxiety increases, empathy decreases. So you’ve got a whole, you know, you’ve got a generation that’s generally for a whole other set of reasons, preexisting COVID, you know, who are already perhaps more isolated, more lonely, less connected, and more anxious in previous generations. And then you throw this into the mix. So just, you know, just sort of being able to, to remind students that, you know, we’re all in our, we’re all on our own ship during this storm <laugh> and we’re all experiencing it differently. Right.

Jeff Gerber (16:12):

So the storm’s big, but you know, some of us are in a rowboat. Some of us are, you know, some of us are in yachts and it hasn’t really affected us at all. And others are, are sinking every day. And you know, just sort of keeping that first and foremost, another need another need analogy. I mean, this kind of, you know, focusing on these kinds of things, it’s, it’s like parenting, like, it’s not like a, it’s not like a 10 minute lesson, or it’s not like an assembly where, okay, we’ve checked it off. We’ve, we’ve talked about kindness today. We put up the poster, it’s all done, you know, it’s you have to do it, you know, it’s gotta be part of, it’s gotta just be built right in there. It’s like, you know, the weeding that we’re doing every day, those, you know, showing grace and, you know, there a couple little sayings in the COVID world that, I mean, people in education have probably seen them, but, you know, relationships before rigor, you know, connection before content, grace, before grades, you know Maslow before bloom, like there’s a lot of different sort of phrases to sort of remind us all that, you know, as much as we’re as much as we’re worried that, Hey, I’m not getting through my, my grade 11 university math CU, right.

Jeff Gerber (17:14):

We’ve got students in front of us who have a whole lot of other things going on in their lives right now. And focusing on those is actually gonna help us teach the curriculum. Right. Sometimes we see these two things as opposing each other, right? Like socially emotional learning or character development and academics. They actually, they actually work together really well, which again, is someone who’s been involved in leader. If you see that, right. The more kids are engaged and connected to other people, the better they’re gonna do. So, you know, some people say, well, you know, that assembly just cost me an hour of, you know, time in the lab. Right. Well, yeah, it did. But you know, we might have, we might have done some other stuff in that time as well. And, and you know that from being in schools and how important that time is, and those messages are

Sam Demma (17:54):

It’s true. And you were the perfect example with your student in class, that little conversation that you had with him in the hallway led to him staying in only your class. And I think that’s half the reason why student leadership is so effective, you make, so someone feel like they’re a part of the family and they’re gonna contribute to the family and not slack off as much. Yeah. Speaking about student leadership, I know you’ve worked in it for so long events. This year are canceled. Not maybe not canceled. Totally. We’re gonna get unique about it and do things differently. Yep. What do you, think’s gonna happen in the next couple of months with events, with speaking, with all those sorts to things?

Jeff Gerber (18:29):

Yeah. I mean, there’s certainly some opportunities to do things in the virtual world. And I know a number of, I mean, I know you’ve been involved in a number of those virtual events and, and run a number of them yourself. And we’ve been involved in a couple of them together. I know that when they took GSL S or GSL D and when Y L C C, who does so many awesome things across the country for students both LCC and CSLA, I know you had Dave Conlan on on your show as well. You know, they’re both providing great frameworks for, for virtual materials to be delivered and, and entrepreneurs and speakers and, you know, leadership, examples like yourselves are also doing that. So even OS L C I know, is gonna be running virtual this you know this fall. So there’s, there is certainly lots of opportunities and ways to connect with people, you know, that you wouldn’t have had that you wouldn’t have had otherwise.

Jeff Gerber (19:17):

And, and, and in your building, you know, there’s ways to, you know, there’s ways to do that as well. You know, you know, virtual, pep rallies, and, you know, you’re bringing people together and having live hosts or recording it and, you know, all the, all those things are good. It, it is also uncharted territory. And, and for, you know, to sort of say right now, Hey, I got this idea and it’s gonna work. Nobody, you know, nobody really knows yet. And, and even, and it’s hard to even gauge, you know? Yeah. I guess you can see if you’re posting, you know, if your school’s posting stories on it to Instagram, you know, you can see how many people are viewing it and all that kind of stuff. There’s some ways, but it’s, you know, it’s, it’s different. That’s all there is to it.

Sam Demma (19:53):

Yeah. No, it’s all true. Very different. And I think anyone who’s in their first year of teaching is thinking, what the heck did I just sign up for? Yeah, exactly. If you could sit down with an educator, just let’s say, it’s yourself, you know, 20 something years ago, and you’re speaking to your younger self, and this was your first year of teaching and it’s crazy. It’s different. What advice would you give that younger self or that new educator?

Jeff Gerber (20:18):

Yeah, I mean, I would, I would just sort of reiterate some of the things we’ve been talking about is, you know, focusing on relationships, focusing on connections, looking for opportunities to, to put yourself out there and to give students a chance to share a little, a bit, you know, off, off topic. And, and there’s so many ways to build it in, like in, in addition to being involved in leadership. I mean, I’m, I’m lucky I’m into social sciences. So people always say, well, it’s a little easier, but you still have to, you still have to intentionally do it. Like when I’m teaching civics and I’m talking about, you know, civics is really, you know, how people live together in groups. Yeah. Well, what personal characteristics help people live together in groups better? And that’s a launching point to talk about some of these things like, you know, kindness and respect and forgiveness and all that other stuff you know, in careers, yeah.

Jeff Gerber (21:01):

Careers is about what do you want to be when you grow up? But let’s talk about what kind of, you know, how do you want to be when you grow up, what person you want to be when you grow up? Mm. So whatever subject area you’re in, you know, find those opportunities to, you know, to bring in something, to bring in something from today, or to bring in something from, you know, current and, and, and just have a conversation about it. I mean, you know, I think that’s what people, I think that’s what people remember. You know, I mean, there’s a famous Maya Angelou quote, right. People, you know, they might not remember what you say or what you do, but they’re always gonna remember how you make them feel. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So if you, as an educator can sort of focus on, you know, how are my students gonna feel when they’re, you know, when they leave this interaction with me or when they leave this class, or when they leave this Google meet, right. Or this zoom meeting, you know, are they gonna feel like they were heard to listen to, or are they gonna feel like, you know, I was just so, you know, I was just in such a to get through the quadratic equation that I didn’t even, you know, that I didn’t even realize what was going on, you know, in the room or, you know,

Sam Demma (21:53):

Whatever. That’s awesome. This has been a great conversation, Jeff, I’m sure we could talk for hours. If any other educator wants to reach out to you, bounce a conversation around, share some ideas, how can they do that? Yeah, for

Jeff Gerber (22:06):

Sure. Yeah. email like jeffgerber.ca works. I am on Instagram and Twitter, @jeffgpresents. So those are all ways to ways to sort of connect and, and, and speaking of social now, I know you’re the interviewer, but I know I know let’s see about two or three weeks ago, you sort of, you sort of made this to you know, to social media free year, which I think is amazing. And I’m just curious and I don’t know, maybe you have a whole other, a whole other way to update your, your listeners as to how it’s coming, but just between me and you, I’m curious.

Sam Demma (22:41):

Yeah. So we’re still live so everyone can hear this as well. There was three reasons that I decided to take a break. The, the last reason I’ll go from the third to the first, the last reason was just to try and experiment. Everyone is spending so much more time on their devices now because of COVID, especially, and screen times through the roof. I, I was like thinking to myself, what would happen if I do the exact opposite and instead of spending way more time spend no, and kind of get lost in my boredom and live life as if I was growing up in your generation, <laugh> without a cell phone. And <laugh> see what it’s like. This, the second reason in the middle was a personal reason. I found that on social media, it’s one so easy to compare yourself to others, but two, it’s also so easy to fall into this trap of always feeling like you need to tell everybody what you’re doing.

Sam Demma (23:35):

Yeah. And if I’m being vulnerable and honest right now on the podcast, I think I didn’t use social media as effectively as I could. Not every single one of my posts were about, Hey, look at me. And here’s what I’m doing. But a majority of them were, whereas they could have been of service to others. Hey, here’s something that can help you. If it’s a picture of me speaking in a school, it’s not just, Hey, I spoke to all these kids. It’s I spoken to school today. And this girl came up to me and taught me this lesson that I think might be of service. And so I thought, let me not just back in with this new mindset and get back on the app right away. Let me take a break and try and dismantle that ego that I have. I’m still a young guy.

Sam Demma (24:10):

I’m figuring it out. The first reason was related to business. I always convinced myself that I was on social media for business, and I did it myself, an audit and found that I spend an average of three hours per day on social that equates to about 1,095 hours in a year. And I had about two speeches booked through social media. And I asked myself is 1,095 hours worth the two talks. And on the very surface level, the answer is no. But what it made me realize was if I spend that 1,095 hours trying to instead be of service level up me, my life, and work on myself, read more books, relating to self leadership for young people that I can actually use to help others. And like you said, build relationships, real relationships with real people, as opposed to staring at a picture online, maybe in a year from now, my life will be totally different and I’ll have something unique to share. So

Jeff Gerber (25:02):

Yeah, no, that’s no, that’s real great. I, I really appreciate you sharing that. That’s yeah, I, I, yeah, I like it.

Sam Demma (25:09):

I like it. Yeah. And it’s, it’s weird. It’s odd. It’s out there. It’s a big decision. I thought like, let, just look for it all <laugh> and

Jeff Gerber (25:16):

It’s a year, like a lot of people will, you know, you’ll, you’ll see people, Hey, I’m gonna stay on social media until tomorrow. Right. Or I, or I gonna give it a week or a month, I mean, a year. That’s awesome.

Sam Demma (25:25):

Yeah. So we’ll see how it goes, but I will be staying up to date through this podcast. People can register and sign up to get all the new episodes. And maybe Jeff will be the messenger. <Laugh> putting it out there. But

Jeff Gerber (25:38):

Now I have dilemma. I haven’t posted, I haven’t posted for, I don’t know when the last time was sometime this summer, I had a fair, how do I post I can’t, if I tag you, you’re not even gonna repost. So I, but let the world discover us.

Sam Demma (25:48):

It’s true. Anyways, Jeff, thanks so much for coming on this show, man. It’s been a real pleasure.

Jeff Gerber (25:52):

Hey, thanks for having me, Sam loved it. Thank you. Keep up the great work.

Sam Demma (25:55):

Awesome. And there you have it. The full interview with Jeff Gerber, he would love for you to reach out and connect and talk about relationships and different ideas that are working in your schools or to pick his, his brain and ask him something related to the interview that you just listened to. But as always, if you have some ideas and insights that you would love to share on this show, we would love to have you on and share them for you. So please shoot us an email at info@samdemma.com. So we can get you on the show and as always, please consider leaving a rating and review because if you do, it would help more educators, just like you find this content and benefit from the ideas and the network. Anyways, I will see you on the next episode. Talk soon.

Join the Educator Network & Connect with Jeff Gerber

The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

December 11, 2021 by Professor Student Activity Director Student Leadership Student Success Teachers Teaching Tips 0

Douglas Gleddie, PhD – President of Physical and Health Education Canada and Professor at the University of Alberta

Douglas Gleddie President PHE Canada
About Douglas Gleddie

Douglas L. Gleddie, PhD, is a husband and father who also happens to be an Associate Professor and Acting Vice-Dean/Associate Dean Academic in the Faculty of Education at the University of Alberta (UofA). He teaches physical and health education curriculum and pedagogy to undergraduate students and graduate courses in health and physical education, reflective practice, physical/health literacy and research methods. Doug’s research focuses on narratives of physical education, school sport, physical literacy praxis, meaningful physical education, and teacher education.

Doug’s life-long journey of exploration into joyful and meaningful movement has enabled him to work with a wide variety of people and organizations across Canada and around the world. Doug began his career as a K-12 teacher, spent 6 years as the Director of the Ever Active Schools program, served 2 years as the Alberta Board member for PHE Canada and has chaired local, national and (coming soon) international conferences. He co-authored three books including the most recent – Healthy Schools, Healthy Futures. Doug can be found on Twitter (@doug_gleddie), writes a blog at www.hslab.ca and takes care of his own wellness by being active with his family; improving his guitar picking and seeking new adventures.

Connect with Douglas: Email | Twitter | Website

Listen Now

Listen to the episode now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favourite podcast platform.

Resources Mentioned

Meaningful Physical Education: An approach for teaching and learning

Healthy Schools LAB

PHE Canada

The Transcript

**Please note that all of our transcriptions come from rev.com and are 80% accurate. We’re grateful for the robots that make this possible and realize that it’s not a perfect process.

Sam Demma (00:00):
Do you want access to all the past guests on this show? Do you want to network with like-minded individuals and meet other high performing educators from around the world? If so, go to www.highperformingeducator.com. Sign up to join the exclusive network and you’ll get access to live virtual networking events and other special opportunities that will come out throughout 2021. I promise you I will not fill your inbox. You might get one email a month. If that sounds interesting. Go to www dot high-performing educator.com. Welcome back to another episode of the high performing educator podcast. This is your host and youth speaker, Sam Demma. Today’s guest is Doug Gleddie. Doug is a husband and father who also happens to be a professor at the university of Alberta in a career filled with change. The only true constants have been physical education activity, working with students and how joys filled the spaces in between this lifelong journey of exploration into joyful and meaningful movement has enabled Doug to work with a wide variety of people and organizations across Canada and around the world.


Sam Demma (01:16):
He has published numerous articles in academic and professional journals, and co-authored four books, including the most recent, meaningful physical education and approach for teaching and learning. Doug is a founding member of the healthy schools lab, and his research interests include narratives of physical education, school sport, physical literacy Praxis, meaningful physical education, and teacher education. Doug does his best thinking on a mountain bike or around a campfire. I’m so excited for you to hear today’s conversation with Doug. I will see you on the other side of this interview. Enjoy!


Sam Demma (01:57):
Doug. Welcome to the high-performing educator podcast. Pleasure to have you on the show here today. Why don’t you start by just introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about what brought you to where you are today in education?


Douglas Gleddie (02:08):
Yeah, sure. Thanks Sam. I appreciate you having me on it should be fun. You promised it would be fun anyways, so that’s good. Yeah. So I’ve been in education now for almost 25 years, which seems kind of strange. Cause I don’t feel that old, but I guess I am so yeah, it took me a while to kind of find my way into education a bit because I you know, with my own kids now, I always, I always encourage them to think about no matter what they’re working in or what they’re doing. Just think about what they enjoy about it. Right. And, and what are they good at and what skills are they learning and how does that apply to different things? So for me, a couple of commonalities emerged the first was just a love working with children and youth anywhere from Sunday school to babysitting, to playing with cousins.


Douglas Gleddie (03:05):
I just, I really enjoyed that piece. So that’s kind of stuck. And then, you know, physical activity movement has always been a key part of my life from like I grew up on a farm and I basically had free range of the half the section and could, you know, run around with very few restraints and you know, climbing trees, hopping, fences, getting chased by cows. It’s all, it’s all part of the game. And so that, that physical activity was really good. And just so those two things kind of connected eventually and led me to a career in education and specifically more physical education. So that went through from, you know, I spent almost 14 years as a teacher K to 12, but most of that time, junior high, but I’ve, I’ve taught everything except food studies, I think. And then and phys ed K to K to 12, settled at kind of junior high that seven to eight and then eventually ended up getting a master’s degree and then a PhD in ending up at the university. And sometimes I still feel I don’t belong, but I’m still a teacher first.


Sam Demma (04:13):
That’s awesome. It’s a cool journey. What about physical activity appealed to you or phys ed. And where did that interest come? Did you also play sports growing up like a lot or?


Douglas Gleddie (04:24):
Yeah, I did. I, you know, I played a lot of sports. I still do. It’s I really think it’s the environment. It’s just, it was that opportunity. Like we didn’t have, I mean, I certainly don’t have the distractions that kids have today with, with devices and social media and everything else. Like we were barely allowed to watch TV and there was only really out on the farm. We only got one or two channels consistently anyways, so it wasn’t a big draw. And so it was just, I think that foundation of, of just being encouraged to be outside and we made up our own games, we played and then like I never played organized sports until junior high. I played one season of outdoor hockey before it moved into or, and then it was too expensive. And so we couldn’t do it anymore, but we always played, you know, we played hockey on our pond.


Douglas Gleddie (05:19):
You know, my brothers and I, and my sister, we, we invented games, you know, throwing a tennis ball at the back steps and you had to catch it before, you know, one person will throw it. The other person have to catch it. And if it hits the screen door, y’all ran like hell, cause mom would get mad. So he figured out the rules. But I think it’s also just, just the freedom of being able to choose what you enjoy. So if you feel like what you need is a walk in the woods, then you choose that. If you feel like what you need is a, a super competitive game of tennis with someone who really pushes you to be better than you can choose that.


Sam Demma (05:53):
That’s awesome. I love that. And I’m really fascinated farming for him. We’ll get to that in a second with, with this idea that if you don’t, if you don’t so anything, you don’t reap anything to go at a young age, you get taught, like if you don’t plant the seed, you’ll never get the vegetable. So I feel like whether, you know, it or not, you’re taught that if you want something, you have to work for it. And I’m curious to know for you personally, if that life of growing up on a farm, like taught you a lot of principles that you think you still hold today.


Douglas Gleddie (06:25):
Oh. And you know, you have to, you certainly have to take care of things. There’s responsibilities. Like we, we had mostly livestock. I mean, we did crops and we had a massive vegetable garden. And so you do, you have to put the work in and you can’t just plant the seed. And then, you know, three months later start picking tomatoes, you know, there’s, there’s weeding, there’s pest control, there’s fertilizing, there’s, you know, all that kind of stuff in there and it takes work. Right. And and then with livestock, you learn a lot of both sacrifice because you can’t, you can’t take care of your own needs before your livestock’s needs because that’s your livelihood. And so, you know, there were years, like I remember a year when my dad, my dad hurt his back and I was, I was one of the only, I think I was the only kid at home.


Douglas Gleddie (07:13):
My older brothers were away at college and it was like minus 50. So we had sheep and we had, you know, probably six, 700 ewes to take care of. And so they’re all outside and, and they had shelter, but you need to get on feed them. So you, you bundle up and you put on your ski goggles and you, you do what you need to do, but you have to take care of that before you take care of your own needs, because literally they will die without your care. So I think that work ethic, that, that ethic of care, and, and also like we did things together as a family, like it was a family farm. We work to get stuff done. And when, you know, when it’s time for the, you know, the, the, the phrase making hay while the sun shines and comes from a real place, because you got to get that hand. So, you know, I spent time sitting on a Baylor past midnight you know, picking up hay bales, stacking bales because you have to get it done. And it was, it was hard work, but we did it together. Right. You’re in it together. Yeah.

Sam Demma (08:19):
That’s awesome. Like I, my, so my grandfather worked on a farm for most of his life. He came here with nothing and he work at GM at night and then on a farm during the day and barely ever saw my, my dad, my dad would tell me that once a week on Fridays at like 2:00 AM, he would come home and get off early. And he would wake the family up for a pizza and a, they would all eat together and like the mall, cause tomorrow tomorrow’s not school, everyone can sleep in. And you know, it’s funny cause like the things you’re saying are like similar things to my grandfather, I think passed down to me about like hard work and these types of values to transition the conversation slightly. I was just curious about asking you about that. But to, to transition this slightly what, what, what led you into education? So you could have taken like the passions you grew up with in many directions, coaching athletics. Why, why did, why did it end up that you went into teaching?


Douglas Gleddie (09:16):
And a good, good question. Sort of go back to what I said earlier about trying to find what, you know, what kind of makes you tick and what you enjoy, like the outdoors children and youth mood. But, you know, I, I considered being a conservation officer like being an official wildlife cause that’s outside. But so I think for me, I, like I had an experience of, I ended up teaching overseas for, for a year in south America. And I really enjoyed that experience of working with the kids. And I think for me the difference was that being a part of a kid’s learning journey and being a part. And, and when you see, when you, when you have a student in specifically in phys ed, that they kinda, they kinda get it and that, that, you know, that switch kind of turns it or that, that switch flicks and you kind of know, they go, wow, this is really fun.


Douglas Gleddie (10:13):
Like I enjoy this and you see them picking it out. Like I’m a big mountain biker. I love, I love to mountain bike. And I used to run in the junior high. We ran a mountain bike club and we did stuff. And to, to, to see someone and specifically there’s a, there was one girl. I remember she was pretty tentative about stuff, but she came on a trip with a bunch of us and there, she was the only girl on the trip, but she did awesome. And she went off like this two foot jump that she never would have done before. And she was just so excited. Right. So, so to kind of see that and to encourage that and to get people excited about movement and, and taking care of themselves, I think that’s where I ended up, you know, going down that road to teacher education. Cause I didn’t, I did an undergrad degree in, in basically history and physical education, a major concentration. And then I didn’t know what I wanted to do for a while. And I played around with stuff and I, I played sports. I did some coaching, but it was really that, that physical education piece in those early, that early learning and being able to connect with kids that way, I think.

Sam Demma (11:20):
Cool. And whereabouts were you in south America when you taught overseas? Oh,

Douglas Gleddie (11:23):
I was improved. Oh wow.

Sam Demma (11:26):
That’s awesome.

Douglas Gleddie (11:26):
Very small jungle town.


Sam Demma (11:30):
Did you ever hear music like this? [inaudible] That’s awesome.


Douglas Gleddie (11:39):
You just have that handy right there.


Sam Demma (11:41):
Whatever, whenever you tell bad jokes, I’ll crack this one, but that’s awesome. What brought you out to Peru? So like w was there like an opportunity? Tell me more about that.


Douglas Gleddie (11:55):
Yeah, it was it was. after I graduated from my first degree I just, I wanted to, actually, I was looking at traveling the world that wants to just maybe take a year and travel around, but I wanted to kind of give back. So I wanted to either go and, you know, volunteer somewhere or work on a mission or do whatever. And so I was looking at opportunities and I just actually wanted to do that for about a month. And then I just wanted to travel. But one of the guys I talked to he’s like, well, we’ve got an opportunity at this school if you want to come here and teach. But it’s a full year. And I was like, nah, not interested in, he looked at me, he said, I think you’ll be back. And it was at this big, I don’t know mission Fest.


Douglas Gleddie (12:37):
It was called all these different opportunities for different service organizations and that sort of thing. And so, and yeah, I was back and I talked to him a little bit more and, and and you know, they needed someone to teach phys ed and a little bit of history. So it seemed like it was tailor made for kind of the training that I’d had. And so that’s how I ended up there. It was great. It was a fantastic experience just to be immersed in completely different culture, different language. You know, I took some Spanish classes before I went down, but I basically learned on the fly, which was fun. And I was teaching mostly Americans at the school. But just to, just to live in the community and, and I would love to go into town and go play basketball and volleyball with people. And there’s just different, different cultural situations that you have to learn and figure out. So it was yeah, I would say it was a pretty formational experience.


Sam Demma (13:33):
That’s amazing. And did you find it challenging or if so, like what were some of the challenges at first?


Douglas Gleddie (13:40):
Oh, yeah, it was challenging because like, I didn’t know anyone there. Right. And you, at the time, like you have to think this is, so this was in, let me see 1993, it seems like a long time ago now, but very little internet. I did get an email address when I went down there, but I literally only knew one of the personal email address. And that was my brother who was at the university of Saskatchewan at the time. Like even phone lines were one way. So literally if I would phone you, I’d be like, Hey, how’s it going, Sam over, over?


Douglas Gleddie (14:23):
So, you know, a little bit of isolation, but great community. The language was a challenge, but I, you know, I enjoyed that. I’m, I’m pretty open and pretty willing to take risks. So you just kind of jump in and you mess up some words and you, you know, you figure some stuff out. Yeah, I don’t, I just found it to be a really, like, there were lots of challenges, but nothing seemed unsurmountable. You just kind of go through and, you know, you’re 23 and you figure it out. Right. You know what that’s like?


Sam Demma (14:57):
Yeah. I mean, in two more years I will. But people always talk about gap years, fifth years especially now with COVID, it’s being talked about even more. And something that always emphasize is travel. Like, do you think traveling to another country is an experience that everyone should go through living somewhere else? Kind of off topic, but just curious about your thoughts on that.


Douglas Gleddie (15:22):
Yeah. I do. Like with my, with my classes, with pre-service teachers at the U of a, I, I certainly encourage if you have the opportunity to try and like go teach in Cambodia, go teach in Thailand. There’s lots of opportunities. You can still teach, for example, using Alberta curriculum and some of these schools. And so it doesn’t, it doesn’t hold you back for your career in Canada. But and I do think there’s a difference between just traveling and visiting. Like you can go, you know, you could go visit Peru for a couple of weeks and you’ll get a sense of things, but when you live there, you know, I, I kept on my favorite phrase after I’d been there for awhile is a, I’m going to butcher the Spanish, but it’s like, I’m not a tourist. I live here like this. So I go to the market and someone would go, oh, this is, you know, this is five solos. And I’d be like, no, no, no, I’m not a tourist. I live here. Oh, you know, half that.


Douglas Gleddie (16:22):
But so I do think going somewhere and spending a significant amount of time with the people that are there. Like I had an opportunity to spend three weeks in Kenya, a number of years ago, and it was different than spending a year improve. And I still, you know, we were working with the local community and, and we were you know, we, we shared tents with, with locals and we shared meals and we did that the whole time. And so that was really good, but it was still only three weeks. And so you’re still kind of parachuting in and then running away. Whereas when you’re there for a longer time, you can deal with Velop relationships. You can get deeper understandings, I think, but I would definitely recommend if you have opportunity, not everyone has the opportunity and you know, it can be difficult to find the funds and to find the support to do that. But if you have the chance, but yeah. Going to a, you know, a resort and Ken Kuhn doesn’t count as visiting another country.


Sam Demma (17:18):
Yeah. I think that’s very important to state. I actually, I’m a big fan of traveling just for new perspectives and awareness. Like I did Iceland two summers ago before COVID and we drove in a car, slept in the car, like crazy experiences, but to the whole country in like 10 days, and I’m actually going to Calgary and we’re going to do like again, a big road trip, not staying at any hotels, they’re all like hostels and Airbnbs, but yeah. And I think it’s a great experience for anyone to have only teachers, but people in general, I’m curious about people who made an impact on you while you were still in school. If you can remember. I know you’re not that old, but, but think back to, you know, you and high school, even in college university, did you have any teachers that at the snap of a finger you can think of this person had a big impact on me as a student? Maybe even like pushed me in this direction a little bit.


Douglas Gleddie (18:16):
Yeah. I think there’s certainly, I mean, I, I did have I had a physical education teacher in elementary, junior high, who and I didn’t really recognize it until later kind of looking back his impact. And it was interesting like quite a number of years later, I was doing a workshop out our teacher’s convention here. And he signed up to to introduce me, which was kinda neat because it was like, oh, that’s Mr. Goodell. He gets to, he gets introduced, man. So he started out, he’s like, well, this is Doug. I taught him in elementary and junior high. And if this is a great session, I taught him everything. He knows if it’s not a good session, he couldn’t teach that dang kid anything.


Douglas Gleddie (19:02):
But, you know, he, he was very innovative in his own way. He tried some really unique things with participation in schools, Ford and not, and, and those are things that I’m working on now. So I think looking back, like I wouldn’t have recognized it at the time, but looking back, I, I see, yeah, there’s some, there’s some impact there. I had a volleyball coach and just for one year in my last year of high school who came in and, and took a completely different approach to coaching that was much more developmental and fundamental that just let’s play games. Let’s just scrimmage.


Sam Demma (19:33):
What does that look like? Like what did she, or what did that person do that made a big difference?


Douglas Gleddie (19:38):
Yeah. Well, I think first of all, he came in with like, he had some high-level coaching experience in Japan and different places. And so, you know, we would, instead of just all these set drills and we would still ran some drills, but he, he had all these different games, like small side of games that helped you become a better player. And you know, it just, and he had ways to motivate. And I know not, not every player necessarily have the same experience that I did, but I just found the year before, when I played, it was just basically just scrimmage. And if you’re on the starting six you’re on that side and you got a different approach, and if you weren’t in the starting six, whereas this coach, he was just like, no, I want to develop everybody. I want everyone to be better at what they’re doing.


Douglas Gleddie (20:21):
And, and he was setting up plays and he was teaching us new things and there is a sense of fun. And so yeah, I took a lot on of his instruction. And then I had, you know, I had some, some you know, other T like a chemistry teacher and English teacher in high school who had just, again, more looking back, I just recognized, no, I had an English teacher in grade 10, and I don’t know if people still read death on the, the classic Canadian story of, of sealing outside of Newfoundland and stuff, but she was looking for what’s the big theme. What’s the, and I basically wrote a whole paper saying, it’s just a book. Like, it’s just a book. It doesn’t have to teach it. But as I was writing at events, I came around, well, okay, fine. There’s themes. And, and she really challenged me in a good way.


Douglas Gleddie (21:09):
Right? Like she could have just given me a zero on the paper and said, you didn’t do what I asked, but she said she actually engaged with me and went through and that’s good. Right. I had a chemistry teacher who chemistry, biology teacher who kind of made things real. And it’s interesting. I went back and told him, so he he’s actually directly responsible for me being able to, to save a couple of people’s lives, which is kind of crazy. And I was actually when I was in group. So he told us a story and in a grade 12 biology class about carbon monoxide poisoning and how, when they were on a road trip with the school and not in those days, kids could drive their own vehicles and go to school events. And, and there was a couple of kids who they had the exhaust was leaking into the car and they started to fall asleep.


Douglas Gleddie (22:03):
And so he was saying to us, well, you know, someone has carbon monoxide point and you cannot let them fall asleep. You got to get them out in fresh air. You got to get them breathing. You got to get moving. So, you know, probably eight, nine years later, maybe not quite five, six years later when I was on a, a boat trip across lake Titicaca in between Bolivia and Peru. And it’s a big lake, it’s one of the highest navigable lakes in the world and the boat, we are on the diesel fumes. It was a stormy stormy afternoon. And the diesel fumes are coming in the, in the cabin when we pulled into port. And I spent most of the time outside in the rain, cause I didn’t want to breathe the fumes. And we came in and one lady from France was completely passed out and her son was going in and out. And so I knew what to do B because of this teacher. And so I got them outside and literally with the young man, I just, I really just slapped the hell out of him because I had to keep him awake.


Douglas Gleddie (23:07):
And then for the, for the woman, like she she was completely out she had locked up her jobs, so I couldn’t give her multimode. I had to give her mouth, the nose to kind of keep her in oxygen. And then we had to there’s no ambulance is there. So we had to call basically called a cab and took a cab to the hospital. And I was trying to remember all my high school, French. And but anyways, by the time we left, she was, she was sitting up on oxygen. She was healthy and thankful, and I hope she didn’t have any damage. But so yeah, there’s, there’s some, but just the fact that this teacher was trying to be real with us and trying to share, not just, this is what carbon monoxide poisoning is and you know, the carbon oxide of fixes to your red blood cells. So that oxygen can’t. And I mean, he taught that stuff too, but he also talked to rural applications. So that was pretty cool.


Sam Demma (24:02):
Have you already written a book or are you going to what? The Frick dude, like these stories are crazy. Find this 50 degree weather with sheep and saving some lives.


Douglas Gleddie (24:15):
Yeah. I’ve had a good, I’ve had a good life. I’ve had a good life.


Sam Demma (24:19):
It’s cool, man. It’s cool. Well, that’s awesome. I love it. Real world application is always something that inspired me in class. Cause it made me feel like I could use the things I learned right away. Maybe not in that case, but some point in your future, you could use the thing passion to, it sounds like this teacher was someone who was passionate about what he was talking about. And when I think back to the educators that made the biggest impact on me, it was the passion that really spoke through.


Douglas Gleddie (24:46):
And I, and I think they, the teachers that have the most impact, you can tell that they enjoy what they do. Right. And they also enjoy the people they work with, which includes students. Like when I was teaching too, there’s always a few people in the school I’m going, why are you here? Like you clearly don’t like kids, you clearly don’t like the subject that you’re teaching. So why are you here? And even when I had student teachers, I would just tell them, listen, if you’re passionate about teaching or your subject area, just like you said, you’ve got that passion for it. And you enjoy working with kids. There is no better job in the world as far as I’m concerned. However, if you don’t and you’re just here because you think it’s good benefits, it’s a decent salary for the education level. You like the summers off, you know what, honestly get the hell out. Cause we don’t need you here and we’re going to be blunt, but that’s, we’ve got better things to do. And these are, these are young people’s lives that you’re messing with.


Sam Demma (25:44):
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I couldn’t agree more. I think there’s, there’s a lot of other careers where you could be mindless and just show up and do the work and go home and it doesn’t have an impact on others. Yeah. Education is definitely not one of them. And especially when it comes down to the things we say, you know, kids look up to their elders and teachers most of the time and you tell a kid something like it might stick with them for the rest of their life, you know and, and affect them either positively or negatively. So, yeah, I totally agree.


Douglas Gleddie (26:14):
Although on that note, you never know what might stick. Cause I a number of years ago I met with a former student who we had reconnected on Facebook and, and so we went out for coffee and, and it was great. And he’s now a teacher actually in a, I think a very, a very good teacher. But I taught him in grade 7, 8, 9. And so he’s like, oh Mr. Gladney like, it’s so good to connect it to you. And he goes, I’ll always remember that one lesson that you taught us. And I was like, well, less than is that Never order a messy down there on the first date.


Sam Demma (26:54):
What’s the story. Can you share the story real quick?


Douglas Gleddie (26:57):
Yeah. So it’s like, I’m like, well, thanks that I’m glad you got one thing out of tire. Well, so what I, what I did, I was teaching grade nine, social studies and I used to run a virtual stock market. And so I give each of the kids a hundred, a hundred thousand dollars and they had to invest. And it was a, it was this website that was actually pulled numbers from the Toronto stock exchange and it kept track. And so I made a bet with my classes. I said, whoever can earn more money than me in this three months, time span with your a hundred thousand dollars, I’ll buy you lunch. And so it was these three, these three boys they all earned more than I did. And so I took him out for lunch and we went to this local dinner tour. And at first, you know, their typical junior high, you’re like, I’ll get a small something with this. I’m like, guys, I’m buying your lunch, get the jumble don’t air. They’re like all in. And then we’re eating these things and there’s mess everywhere. And that’s when I, I said, well, word of advice, guys, never order, you know, a big message in there on a first date.


Sam Demma (28:03):
Was so funny, man. That’s awesome. That’s funny. That’s, it’s, it’s true sometimes. Depending on what that person needs, maybe that person just needed a humor that day. Right. And like something to lighten the load. Like I sometimes I’ll do a speech and what I think is so important, someone else comes out to me and says, oh, and you said this, it was so important. And I was like, I don’t even like, think that’s an important thing, you know? And I think that’s also really important to remember every everything we say matters. Awesome. And so you’ve worked in a range of different school environments different settings. Explain a little bit about where you are now and what the job entails.


Douglas Gleddie (28:44):
Yeah. So I’ve been at university of Alberta and the faculty of education now for nine years. I think it’s sorry. I’m in my ninth year, I guess it would be more accurate. And I’m currently an associate Dean of graduate studies in the faculty. So I’m doing more admin than teaching which it’s been an interesting journey doing administration. And I do enjoy aspects of more leadership than administration, but I do miss the teaching. So I haven’t taught undergrads for a couple of years. I’ve been teaching grad students and I do love teaching grad students because we have a program. We have a health and phys ed master’s cohort program, which every few years we take in a new group of 24 students. And that is fantastic. It’s so rewarding. But yeah, so you know, we’re going through lots of change right now.


Douglas Gleddie (29:37):
So there’s, there’s budget cuts, there’s program changes there’s institutional. So it’s dealing with that stuff, but, but change management is very interesting. Just to see, you know, who’s, who’s okay with taking a risk moving forward and who wants to just stay comfortable. And the fact is we’ve been forced out of comfortable from because of the budgets and stuff like that. But I do really enjoy working with grad students. For example, I just, I just had one of my PhD students just successfully defended her dissertation on Tuesday morning. So that’s super exciting. And she’s got a wonderful career ahead of her. So that’s give a little shout out to Dr. Harden Krieger as of freshly minted, but yeah, I think, I mean, a university is a unique place and as a, as a teacher there is a lot of education that goes on there.


Douglas Gleddie (30:32):
It’s, there’s a lot of flexibility and there’s a lot of opportunity to try new things. So like this master’s cohort, something I’ve wanted to do for a long time. It took us about five years to get it up and running. But once we did now, it’s very successful. I’ve got some great colleagues that I work alongside that help out and, and share the load and bring their own expertise, passion, and innovation to the program. And so that’s, you know, good work with good people is, is really, that’s kinda my kryptonite. It’s hard to say no to


Sam Demma (31:05):
Awesome love that. Cool. And what do you think are some opportunities right now in education? Like I know COVID has changed things a lot. It’s given us tons of challenges, but I think along with all challenges or some little opportunities here and there, curious if you have some of that.


Douglas Gleddie (31:21):
I think you know, I kinda, I kind of get annoyed when people are like, well, what was the silver lining of? COVID like, well, there’s no silver lining. A lot of people died. A lot of people got sick and it really sucked for the last 18 months. But at the same time, like you said, we definitely learned something, right. So I think we, we learned that or were reminded maybe I always liked one of my favorite mark Twain quotes, and he’s got a lot of good ones, but never let school stand in the way of a good education. That’s a rough paraphrase, but school is just one way to get educated. You know, there are so many different places to get educated. And I think for post-secondary institutions, we’re learning that we can’t just sit back and say, Hey everyone, this is where it’s at.


Douglas Gleddie (32:09):
You need to come to us. We need to be out there, but we need to be innovative. We need to be reaching people where they are providing what they need. That doesn’t mean we give up on theory. It doesn’t mean we give up on the idea of a university in the idea of a university is to share ideas and discuss and debate. So I think that’s one way you know, even with our health and phys ed cohort, we, we recognize early on that the way to bring people in is to not have them all come to campus all the time. So we do a summer, we do like two consecutive summers where you come for two weeks and it is important that we connect face to face and then the rest is online, but they’ve created those relationships. So, you know, the fact that you can, you can interact and create pretty deep relationships with people without being in the same room. Now I still think ultimately face-to-face is where it’s at. And you have to get there eventually. But, so I think that, I think we’re going to see a lot of post-secondary programs that are pushed to innovate and the ones that don’t, they’re going to fall behind.


Sam Demma (33:16):
Got it. Cool. Awesome. And you know, I can’t remember how many years you said you’ve been teaching 29, 25?


Douglas Gleddie (33:23):
I think 25


Sam Demma (33:24):
Okay. And this is, might be a tough question, but if you took all the experience and knowledge you have now through the past, you know, two decades of teaching and you could give some advice to your first year younger self when you were just getting into the job, like knowing what you know now, what would you tell that first year Doug?


Douglas Gleddie (33:50):
Well, I think the consistent thing all the way through is that like teaching what’s like life, it’s all about relationships. So if you don’t care about relationships, the rest of the rest falls behind. And I think the biggest piece of advice is it’s not about you because as a young teacher, like I remember going on the gym and shooting around and, and you know, I used to play a lot of basketball and, and I’m, I’m pretty tall and I used to be able to jump. And so, you know, I go in there and I’d be like, I’d be like Dunkin on kids and stuff. And I’m like, yeah, I just dumped on a 14 year old look how good I am. That’s part of that’s just because I was young and part of it too, you’re insecure and you’re trying to cement your place into things. But I often tell my, my student teachers right now, as you may tell, I like a lot of quotes and a lot of different things, but there’s a, there’s a Soundgarden line. You know, be yourself, it’s all that you can do or it’s all that you can be. And so that’s really, you have to be yourself. And if you’re your honest, authentic self, and you’re also reflective and you’re relational, I think you’ll go far.


Sam Demma (35:06):
Cool. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing some of your experiences and stories. And if someone’s listening is been inspired by anything and just wants to connect, what would be the best way for them to reach out to you and get in touch?


Douglas Gleddie (35:20):
Hmm. Well, probably I’m the only social media I’m on at the moment is Twitter. So I think I’m, I don’t even know what my handle is. Yeah. I think it’s d_ bloody pretty original. My email is dgleddie@ualberta.ca. Chances are nowadays, you can just Google stuff and you’ll find people I’m fine with emails to connect up. That works for me. Awesome. I also really appreciate the work you’re doing Sam in terms of this, like, podcasts are so great. Like I’m a huge podcast fan. I listened to a wide variety when I’m working out or just walking or biking to work or whatever. And there’s so many, you know, you asked about the way like institutions change and education changes. Like I write peer reviewed papers and there’s an important piece for that. But if it never gets into the hands of teachers or into the hands of people who can use it, it doesn’t go anywhere. So to do things like this, podcasts, blogs, talking to teachers, book clubs, whatever it is, that’s where it’s at. Yeah.


Sam Demma (36:29):
I appreciate that. I appreciate it. And I hope it continues to reach more educators so they can learn about everything we talked about. And I think I’ve interviewed like 120 people now, selfishly, I’m learning a lot. And I think everyone’s getting to learn from each other. It’s like free peer to peer personal development


Douglas Gleddie (36:48):
Now. So I’ve got a question for you. If that’s allowed?


Sam Demma (36:52):
Sure, we’re still live.


Douglas Gleddie (36:56):
It’s not an embarrassing question. So you’re, you know, you’re interviewing all these folks and you’re looking at education and you’re doing this. What’s your, what’s your plan moving forward. Are you, are you going to go into more formal education? Are you like, I think you’re educating people now. But what’s your, what’s your immediate then maybe longterm plan.


Sam Demma (37:14):
It’s funny. You mentioned never letting school get in the way of education. I’m someone that believes that, that as well, there’s so many ways to get educated, educated and informed. I actually went to university for two months. I’m a student to take a gap year. A fifth year, went to school, realized that it wasn’t what I wanted and then dropped out and coming from a European family, my parents immediately were like, what the heck are you doing? You know, it’s talking about us laughing that kid inside the head when you were in Cambodia on the boat. You know, I got, I got some math, a couple of times metaphorically. And I told my parents, I want to speak to kids. I have stories that I think would inspire them to follow their dreams, to be servant leaders, to give back. And I just started doing that at the age of 19 and I found a youth speaking university and I went and I, I flew to California.


Sam Demma (38:06):
I flew to Vancouver. I bought these programs found a coach, hired a coach kinda like dove in. And so all the work I’m doing is catered towards helping young people and youth realize the importance of their own potential and possibilities. And then also along that line, understanding that life isn’t all about you, but you have to also give back and be a good human being. So like, what’s, what’s the future right now. I’m actually working on a spoken word album and I won’t share it live, but after we hit the stop recording, I’ll, I’ll share it with you. And I’m also working on a book called dear high school. Me, which much of life lessons for students from someone not far removed from school. So I’ll get into formal education. I’m not sure I will continue doing the stuff I’m doing now, but just try and do more.


Douglas Gleddie (38:55):
Yeah. And just know, I don’t ask that question out of a, “you should really do formal education” because I do think we push, we push kids to university too much for some it’s absolutely the right place to be. Right. But like I said, there’s so many different places to learn. There’s so many opportunities to grow and develop. And so I think it’s really cool to see what


Sam Demma (39:17):
I appreciate that. And I, I love the question and I’m, I’m very cautious about giving other young people advice, because again, it’s not like it depends on where you want to go. Right. It’s like if I wanted to be a doctor engineer or a teacher, like you have to take certain paths. So yeah, I appreciate the question. And again, this has been an honor. Thank you so much for coming on the show, keep up the great work and we’ll talk soon.


Douglas Gleddie (39:39):
Yeah. Likewise. Thanks for having me.


Sam Demma (39:41):
And there you have it. Another amazing guest and amazing interview on the high performing educator podcast. As always, if you enjoy these episodes, please consider leaving a rating and review. So other educators like yourself can find this content and benefit from it. And here’s an exclusive opportunity that I mentioned at the start of the show. If you want to meet the guest on today’s episode, if you want to meet any of the guests that we have interviewed, consider going to www.highperformingeducator.com and sign up to join the exclusive network. You have access to networking events throughout 2021 and other special opportunities. And I promise I will not feel your inbox. Talk to you soon. I’ll see you on the next episode.

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The High Performing Educator Podcast was brought to life during the outbreak of COVID-19 to provide you with inspirational stories and practical advice from your colleagues in education.  By tuning in, you will hear the stories and ideas of the world’s brightest and most ambitious educators.  You can expect interviews with Principals, Teachers, Guidance Counsellors, National Student Association, Directors and anybody that works with youth. You can find and listen to all the episodes for free here.

November 8, 2021 by President Professor Teachers 0

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